1500 Luna Wolves - Now With Battle Reports

Moonstalker · October 27, 2013

So, I've been mulling over a Heresy list for a while now, and I'm hoping to be able to actually get to modelling at some point in the new year (been working on some house remodelling that's kept me from indulging in plastic/resin crack this year). I've been thinking loyalist pre-Ullanor Luna Wolves. I don't expect to face a lot of highly competitive armies, except for That Guy in my group (everyone knows That Guy). And I'll probably just choose not to play him. Either way, I mostly anticipate facing good lists, but not great lists, so I'm not looking for the absolute most competitive build. But I could use some pointers from people who know the units a bit better than I do. The below list is not exactly 1500 points, there's a bit to play around with.

Praetor

Cataphractii, Combibolter, Paragon Blade, Digital Weapons

Consul

Cataphractii, Librarian (ML3), Force Sword, Combibolter

Legion Command Squad

One additional Chosen, all in Cataphractii armor (Combibolter and PW)

Legion Tactical Squad

10 additional Marines, Legion Vexilla

Legion Tactical Squad

10 additional Marines, Legion Vexilla

Sicaran Battle Tank

Lascannon Sponsons

Predator

Plasma Executioner, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Whirlwind

Hyperios MIssiles

The Sicaran is staying no matter what. The model is too awesome for me to not get one, and it'll probably be the first thing I get. I'd rather avoid doing the whole ten man squads in Rhinos bit. I can do that anyways with my Space Wolves. For this, I want something suitably 30k, and having at least one 20 man squad fills that niche. I could see my way towards reducing the second squad to 10 man to free up points.

Without access to EW, I don't want to sink too many points into my HQ's. The points I've spent on them here is about the upper limit of what I will spend. I've put them and the Command Squad in Cataphractii armor for the time being, but they could just as well be in Artificer armor. I like the idea of the Command Squad to make sure my huge blob of marines doesn't break (hence the Vexillas in addition to the command squad), but even in Cataphractii armor I don't feel like the Command Squad brings a lot, and I'm open to suggestions on what to exchange it for. I could also drop the Librarian if there is something I should bring that would provide my army more effect than a ML3 Divination psyker. I could also see dropping him to ML1 for a single cast of Prescience or something just to free up points for better purposes (2 HQs at 1500 does seem like a little much?). Maybe it's better to save the Praetor for 2000 points and stay with only the Librarian for the buffs he could provide?

Whirlwind Hyperios for anti-air. I'm not sold on its ability to deal with the occasional flyer before said flyer deals with it. Open to suggestions on what else I could take, but it was hard for me to think of good anti-air options for that few points.

Predator Executioner for anti-TEQ and anti-MC. The heavy bolters are there mostly to give the Plasma Executioner a little protection against weapon destroyed results, and because the Deimos predators look good with sponsons. I suppose lascannon sponsons would provide a little more depth/insurance in case the Sicaran goes down, to make sure I still have some anti-tank on the field, but I'm not sure I'll have the points for them and they don't look as cool as the heavy bolter sponsons on the Executioner.

Expanding towards 2000 points, I was looking at Support Squads, a second Hyperios, and/or a second Predator (I like tanks). Towards 2500, I have a sorely neglected Hellhammer that wants a new Blood and Skulls Industry turret and scratch-build quad-lascannon sponsons so it can pretend it's an Arkurian-Pattern Fellblade. But I'd like a solid 1500 point list to get started with that has a bunch of marines at the core.

Adeptus-Alaska · October 27, 2013

wow, I really hope you start this soon. I would love to see someone give the Luna wolves some dedication

Moonstalker · October 27, 2013

wow, I really hope you start this soon. I would love to see someone give the Luna wolves some dedication

I'm a loyalist at heart, so I want some Terra-born boys with leaders who saw the end of the Unification Wars. I don't think I'll get started anytime really soon, sadly, but when I do, I'll definitely start a progress log here on them. But before any of that, I need to decide what all I'm gonna make for a core all-comers list (the rest of my group isn't so big on 30k, but they're fine with me playing a Legion list vs 40k armies).

Moonstalker · October 29, 2013

So, I actually got my hands on my copy of Massacre today, and I found the Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought within. Having had a long-standing affection for dreadnoughts (even if they are not currently en vogue) I thought this was just what my list needed to shore up its transport and flyer killing abilities. I also decided that two HQs at 1500 was simply too many, and I've reduced it to just one. The list is largely the same, however.

Praetor

Cataphractii Armor, Paragon Blade, Digital Weapons, Combi-bolter

-OR-

Centurion

Cataphractii Armor, Librarian (ML3), Force Sword, Combi-bolter

170

Legion Terminator Squad

Cataphractii Armor, 1 Powerfist/4 Power Weapons, 5 Combi-bolters

180

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought

Twin Twin-linked Autocannons

165

Legion Tactical Squad

10 Additional Marines, Legion Vexilla

260

Legion Tactical Squad

10 Additional Marines, Legion Vexilla

260

Sicaran Battle Tank

Lascannon Sponsons, Armored Ceramite

195

Predator

Plasma Executioner, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

135

Predator

Plasma Executioner, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

135

The predators are not squadroned, using all three heavy support choices here. I can't actually decide between the Praetor and the Librarian, they're both the same points cost as outfitted. I think the Praetor makes more sense as the leader of a larger force, (a Centurion would command a smaller army, no?), and the force-multiplication of the Librarian's spells might make the difference here. So I will probably go with the Librarian/Centurion, but I figure I'll make both anyway and swap them out a few times before I decide. This does give me three scoring units, none of which will be all that easy to wipe off the table, backed up by some brutal firepower from the Sicaran and two Predators, with some overwatch vs flyers provided by the Contemptor-Mortis (and while he's not killing flyers, he'll snack on rhinos). Fluff-wise, I like how the organization works out. Two medium tanks with one heavy tank is a good armor detachment, and 40 marines with 5 terminators and a commander is a solid core of infantry. Mix in a dreadnought for a little flavor, and it definitely feels like a Crusade force to me.

Still, I'd appreciate any input. I may get to playtest this with proxies in the next week or two, so I'll tell you guys how that goes.

Sevatar · October 30, 2013

My only slight worry is the transportion of the Terminators. Foot slogging across the board will see them destroyed quite easily at this points level. The firepower is very impressive, though, so it may not really matter if you use cover intelligently.The amount of plasma/las death is nasty.

Moonstalker · October 30, 2013

I don't really see them getting anywhere in a hurry, but I'm kinda okay with that. General theory is I will push my marines all up into the mid field with the terminators/librarian just behind them, hopefully throwing out divination buffs where critical. Prescience for a round of Fury of the Legion, Forewarning for the most exposed squad, etc. I don't really rate assault as being that practical under sixth edition rules, so I don't really plan to get any game-winning multi-assault going with them. I just want to use them as a kind of psychological threat of, "Hey, I have terminators back here, better not charge me or I'll get them all up in your grill!" And likewise, I want to use that perceived threat to draw plasma fire off my tactical marines and onto the terminators, who are guaranteed to have their 4++ save to fall back on.

Basically I want them to be fat and shootable so my more important units aren't being hit. Assuming they survive, they are also an additional scoring unit.

But that doesn't mean I'm not open to alternatives.

Moonstalker · November 6, 2013

I have a friend, Terry, who has come to visit up from Tennessee while he's on his way up to visit his folks, and we were able to get a couple games in. We set up the game table - 3 leftover 2 foot by 4 foot sheets of plywood (from my still-ongoing kitchen remodel - starting tilework tomorrow) on top of a folding table. We ended up playing two games, and I'll explain why in the first report. Terry is still pretty new to 40k (at least sixth ed), doesn't get a lot of games in. He plays Grey Knights, though he has several thousand points of Eldar left over from 3rd ed. I've also played less than 10 sixth edition games, so my understanding of the rules can be a bit muddy at times.

I fielded my above list both times, all proxies just to try it out and see how it performs. The first game, Terry fielded the following list (or something close to it):

Coteaz

Ordo Malleus Inq
-Power Armor, Power Sword, Combi-Plasma

GK Terminator Squad
6 Members, Brotherhood Banner, Force Halberd, 4 Falchions

Inq Henchmen Squad
2 Servitors (MM), 3 Warrior Acolyte (3 Plasmaguns, Carapace)

Inq Henchmen Squad
2 Servitors (MM), 3 Warrior Acolyte (3 Plasmaguns, Carapace)

Inq Henchmen Squad
6 Warrior Acolyte (3 Plasmagun, 3 Storm Bolter, Carapace)

Razorback
TL Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter, Hunter-killer, Extra Armor, Psybolt Ammo

Razorback
TL Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter, Hunter-killer, Extra Armor, Psybolt Ammo

Razorback
TL Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter, Hunter-killer, Extra Armor, Psybolt Ammo

Dreadnought
-2 TL Autocannon, Extra Armor, Psybolt Ammo

Land Raider
-Multimelta, Extra Armor, Hunter-killer, Psybolt Ammo

We rolled Purge the Alien for the mission type, and decided to use Dawn of War deployment. We chose to ignore Night Fighting and the first roll for variable game length (no possibility of game end on turn 5, roll normally on turn 6 to see if it continues to turn 7). I chose to roll on the divination table and got prescience, foreboding, and misfortune, and managed to get the most useless warlord trait you can have when facing marines: Bloody Handed. Terry rolled Master of the Vanguard for his warlord trait.

I won the roll for choosing deployment zone, but Terry won the roll for choosing to go first/deploy first - and he chose to deploy first. He set up just to the right of center (from my perspective), using his Land Raider to shield two of his Razorbacks, with his third Razorback next to the Land Raider and his Dreadnought just on the other side of a Wrecked Vehicle terrain piece from his other vehicles, just to the left of center. I deployed all along my table edge, with my Sicaran backed into the left corner and my Contemptor-Mortis in front of it to provide a cover save to the Sicaran (while the Sicaran was out of range of the Lascannons of the Land Raider). My Predators were just to the left of that, with the Terminators and Librarian just in front to provide cover saves to them, and then my two blocks of marines behind some terrain pieces in center and center-right.

I unsurprisingly failed to sieze the initiative, and Terry surprised me by actually moving his tanks back and away from me. I had a vague idea of what his list is, but hadn't read through it before the game, so I didn't know he'd loaded up on Hunter-Killer missiles on all his transports. He levels one twin-linked lascannon and all the Hunter-Killers at one of my Predators, hits with the lascannon and one Hunter-Killer, only pens with the HK, but I save it with a cover save.

I started the turn off by casting prescience on the Sicaran. I moved my troops towards eachother and forward, between the two terrain pieces they had deployed behind, while my vehicles all pushed up my left flank six inches with the terminators and contemptor-mortis screening in front of them. My contemptor-mortis opened fire on an exposed Razorback, scored two penetrating hits, and then rolled a 5 and 6 on the damage table. This particular Razorback held the Inquisitor + MM Servitors + Plasmagunners squad, and two of the plasmagunners died in the explosion. My sicaran opened fire on the survivors and killed a MM servitor and the Inquisitor - the survivors broke and fled toward the board edge.

On Terry's turn, they failed to rally and fell back off the board edge. Terry used max movement and flat outs to start moving down my far right flank, trying to give my Sicaran a wide berth while he tried to move around towards my tacticals. His psyfleman Dread used the wrecked vehicle terrain to cover from the Sicaran and shoot through the middle at one of the squads of Legionares, and killed one.

On my turn, I pulled my Predators back towards the left flank just slightly, trying not to expose them to any lascannon fire and preserve their firepower for dealing with the terminators I knew were in the Land Raider. I had prescienced the Sicaran at the start of the movement phase, and then moved forward 12 inches to get range on the Land Raider. I fired the Accelerator Cannon at full BS and made prescienced snap-shots with the lascannons. Still no hits from the lascannons, but I scored one pen with the Accelerator Cannon... and proceeded to roll a six on the damage table. The Land Raider exploded, killing one of the terminators inside.

Though he still had the tools to kill my vehicles (Assault Cannons with Psybolt Ammo can chew up AV13 handily enough) and had a lot of plasma/melta shooting otherwise, along with five GK terminators, Terry conceded at this point in the game. His units were exposed, in the open, and around 48 inches away from my Contemptor and Sicaran (only around 36-42 inches from the Predators, and maybe 24-30 or so from my marines). He had not scored any VPs from killing my units, while I had already racked up five between first blood and kills. I still had the firepower to probably table him (or close to it) by the close of turn 4, and he was too far out of position to effectively engage me.

While the victory was fairly satisfying for me - I thought I had positioned my units well, engaged well, and taken down the one threat to my long-range dominance of the battlefield - it was not really a satisfying game for Terry, and we decided to break for twenty minutes while he made a new list, then we'd play another round.

Moonstalker · November 6, 2013

Desiring a rematch, we decided to keep things fairly the same - same mission, same deployment zones. We just wanted to get on with the shooting. Terry had built the following list (or something close to it) to face me again with:

CoteaZ

Inq Henchmen Squad
11 Death Cult Assassins

Inq Henchmen Squad
2 Servitors (MM), 3 Warrior Acolyte (3 Plasmaguns, Carapace)

GK Terminator Squad
6 Members, Brotherhood Banner, Force Halberd, 4 Falchions

Razorback
TL Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter, Hunter-killer, Extra Bolter, Psybolt Ammo

Dreadnought
-2 TL Autocannon, Extra Armor, Psybolt Ammo

Land Raider
-Multimelta, Extra Armor, Hunter-killer, Psybolt Ammo

Land Raider
-Multimelta, Extra Armor, Hunter-killer, Psybolt Ammo

I thought this list was kind of a WAAC dick move, because where I brought an all comers list, he knew I had lots of MEQ and not much to deal with AV14, and he brought a list specifically trying to exploit that. I'm not too much of a baby, though, so I went ahead and played against it - if he had tried to squeeze three Land Raiders in or something, I'd probably have just told him to screw off.

I rolled Prescience, Forewarning, and Perfect Timing for my psychic powers, and Void Walker for my warlord trait. Terry actually got the same warlord trait again that he got last game, Master of the Vanguard. He also, again, won the roll for deploy first/go first, and chose to deploy first.

Our deployments were almost the exact same as last time, with him deploying his land raiders shielding his razorback and dreadnought in the same place he had deployed previously. My tanks and terminators, I set up the same, still wanting to deny as much first turn shooting as I could manage while I stuffed my marines deeper into cover in the center-right of my deployment zone.

On his first turn, he just moved directly away from me, once more heading towards my right flank, and using flat out moves to get there. I followed up by casting prescience/forwarning on my Sicaran, and just moving my units out of the way so I could get it 12 inches forward and open up with its guns. Due to intervening terrain, I couldn't actually get shots with the lascannons, but I was able to light up one of his Land Raiders with the main gun - six hits, zero rends.

On turn 2, Terry kept his units moving flat out as he now pushed halfway up the board on my right flank. Unfortunately, he had had to leave his Dreadnought behind, and he popped smoke to try and keep it alive so he could try and get it into better cover next turn. I prescienced/forewarninged again on my Sicaran and moved my Predators rightwards along my board edge, half-hiding one behind the other and popping smoke on the front one. If he came around the large piece of terrain that my marines were hiding behind, I didn't want him getting free shots on the predators without cover saves for them. The leftmost squad of my marines (let's call them Squad A), I moved even more leftward, moving them towards the Predators while the squad just to the right (let's call them Squad B ) of them rolled 5 inches for their difficult terrain, and started to pile into the terrain piece next to them. I knew that his Death Cult Assassins did not have frag grenades and he had not chosen to bring Land Raiders with Frag Assault Launchers, so if I could lure him into a charge into terrain I could strike before him and then hit him with merciless fighters before he could get any swings in at all.

Lacking any good shots on the Land Raiders, I lit up his dreadnought with my Contemptor, managing to get one pen through his armor and smoke, and stripping one of his guns off. My Sicaran follows it up, scoring two pens between the lascannons and main gun, both of which get through his cover save - the dreadnought explodes.

At the beginning of turn 3, Terry turns his guns on my Sicaran without much movement, managing to get 3 lascannons in arc of it and firing off all three of his Hunter Killers. He manages to hit with two lascannons, but fails to pen with either of them. One of the Hunter Killers was a snap shot from movement and fails to hit, while the other two just fail to pen.

At the start of my turn, I refresh the blessings on the Sicaran, and then finish moving Squad B into cover. My Predators move in a little closer, again preparing to cover Squad B while Squad A moves to cover the flank of the Predators. My Contemptor-Mortis moves up the left flank towards the center of the table, hiding among some ruined monuments while I wait for a good shot at some armor it could pen. I open up on the closest Land Raider with my Sicaran, and even with 2 prescienced lascannons and the Accelerator Autocannon, I fail to get even a glance on it.

Turn 4 went fairly poorly from me. Content with where he was, Terry just shuffled his tanks around a little bit, jockeying for slightly better sight lines and trying to keep his squishy razorback covered. He then fires another volley into the sicaran, scoring 3 hits. He rolls exceptionally well after, penning with two of them, and I manage to save one with the Sicaran's Forewarning save. Unfortunately, he then rolls yet another six, and gets an explodes result on the damage table. Three terminators are caught in the explosion, but their armor is too strong for such things. His razorback opens up on Squad B, but only manages to kill one marine with all of its shooting.

I realized at this point that the situation was fairly dire, as I now had only one method of even scratching the paint on his land raiders - the power fist in my terminator squad. However, there were only two - maybe three - turns left in the game, and I had first blood and one VP. I was, technically, winning, and if I could keep from losing units I could continue to do so. I thus moved my Contemptor toward a piece of cover I could use to fully block line of sight. My predators pushed up just next to the terrain that Squad B was taking cover in, with one of them peeking around it to fire its Plasma Executioner at the Razorback. After some wild misses, it manages to score a hit and pens, stripping off a hull point and merely stunning the vehicle. I shift my blessings, casting forewarning on Squad A as they move further away from the enemy.

At the beginning of turn 5, Terry passes his Fortitude test on his Razorback and then moves his Land Raiders back to shield it. One Land Raider fires both lascannons at the Contemptor, hits with both, but fails to pen its front armor. The other Land Raider fires its pintle-mounted multimelta (just out of melta range) and one lascannon at the predator that had just fired at his razorback, but fails to get a pen with either shot. The razorback itself shoots at Squad B, and manages to kill two marines.

Without a clear shot on the Razorback and still with the lead in VPs, I get my Contemptor completely behind cover and back my Predators up so they are both covering behind the terrain piece that Squad B is lurking in. Squad A gets their forewarning cast, and I then do nothing in my shooting phase.

Turn six arrives, and Terry realizes he needs to do something or he will most definitely lose. Both Land Raiders open up on my Terminator with 3 lascannons, 2 heavy bolters, and 1 multimelta - and I only fail 1 save. Mostly due to all of his lascannon shots missing or failing to wound.

With his Land Raiders moved out of blocking positions so they could start laying into my terminators, I pop my Predator forward again and take some more shots at his Razorback. I just have really awful luck with my scatter die, two total misses. With the third shot, I hit and pen, scoring an immobilize result and reducing the Razorback to one hull point.

It was at this point that we should have rolled to see if the game continued, but it was actually getting on towards three or four AM and we miscounted the number of turns we had taken. So, we believed that we were now starting turn six when we were actually beginning turn seven, and Terry took the opportunity to try and get stuck in in combat. Moving forward with his Land Raider carrying the Death Cult Assassins, he disembarked them only about twelve inches away from my terminators and was only about six inches away after his disembark move. His other Land Raider moved for a better shot/angle on my Predator, Coteaz and his boys got out of their Razorback and stood in front of it, trying to shield it with their bodies and actually put their guns to use.

After a round of shooting that saw one hull point removed from my Predator with a glance from one of Coteaz's plasmagunners and two terminators dead to land raider fire, he easily made his assault move and got stuck in with the DCA. My terminators stood there valiantly and died, with my Librarian surviving with one wound and managing to kill two Death Cult Assassins. My Librarian, heroically, stood his ground and remained in combat after passing his morale test.

Desperately needing help, my Librarian manages to prescience and forewarning Squad A, and they move six inches towards the combat. The predators both move around the cover that Squad B is hiding in, basically blocking the area behind it with a wall of AV13. The squad in cover uses fury of the legion to land a hail of bolter fire (a few models at 12 inches, most at 12-18) into Coteaz' squad, killing all of his henchmen but failing to get through his armor with eight extra wounds piled on him. The Predators open up, the first targeting Coteaz, managing to score a hit on him, which easily wounds him and, piercing his armor, double toughs him as well. Though the Razorback was hit by the same shot, it fails to pen. The second Predator, however, now has a clear shot at the Razorback and blasts it apart.

Making it into combat, my legionares valiantly try to save their commander - and succeed. Though wounded five times, he passes all armor saves, and cuts down another Assassin. The marines wade into the remaining assassins and cut them down mercilessly - so mercilessly, in fact, that there are none left by the time I could get my Merciless Fighters attacks. The assassins did manage to take two marines with them before they were slaughtered.

At this point, we rolled to see if we continued to turn 'seven' (which would actually be turn eight), and the dice came up 5. So we continued. Terry, mysteriously, decided to tank shock Squad A and the Librarian with the Land Raider, but they both passed their morale tests and simply stepped out of the way. The other land raider fired its multimelt and one lascannon at the wounded predator, and managed to strip off the remaining two hull points - and score an explosion result. The terminators that were inside had disembarked their land raider, and charged Squad B in that assault phase.

The justicar hit first, killing one marine with his halberd. Squad B apparently fell asleep or something, because with their 16 return attacks, they only scored one wound - which was easily saved. The remaining terminators cut down six marines, causing Squad B to fail their leadership test.

Escaping combat with the terminators, Squad B managed to avoid falling back off the board edge and regrouped at the beginning of my movement phase. The librarian attempts to prescience his squad in preparation for a fury of the legion attack - but rolls double sixes. Suffering from a severe headache, he decides to lay down for a while. The remaining Predator lays into the terminators as they stand victoriously in the terrain they fought to clear, and kills four of them - despite their cover save. Squad A kills one more terminator with their bolters, and the Contemptor peeks out to shoot the last one, scoring 3 wounds, with the terminator failing two of his armor saves.

I only realize now that I am writing up the battle report from my notes that we played one turn too many - but I don't think it made much difference in the end. I would have still won on victory points if we ended at turn seven instead of eight. The final tally:

Luna Wolves:
First Blood
Slay the Warlord
Coteaz destroyed
Razorback destroyed
Inq Henchmen Squad destroyed
Inq Henchmen Squad destroyed
Dreadnought destroyed
Terminator Squad destroyed
Total: 8

Grey Knights
Slay the Warlord
Librarian destroyed
Terminators destroyed
Sicaran destroyed
Predator destroyed
Total: 5

Moonstalker · November 6, 2013

Sorry for the triple post (quadruple, if you count the one I made in this thread several days ago), but I wanted to break the battle reports up to make it a bit easier to read. This last post is for my take away from the battles.

First, my terminator squad kinda did what I wanted them to do - be fat, absorb bullets. They helped my predators out with some cover saves, and soaked the charge from the Death Cult Assassins, but otherwise were too slow to have much impact on the battle. The Librarian's divination buffs were a pretty big help in several situations, saving a couple penetrating hits or marines from power weapons, helping guarantee some other hits. However, applying the buffs can be difficult, and limits my deployment of him. I only got forewarning in one game out of two, which I think is about expected with three rolls. So, I can't rely on getting Forewarning (and it's by far the most useful), and prescience just didn't help much. It's completely pointless to throw it on the Contemptor-Mortis, and I didn't really feel like it helped terribly much on the Sicaran considering most of its firepower comes from the main gun and the main gun is already twin-linked. But overall, I'm a little unhappy with how RNG-ish the librarian is. If I had the same rolls on the table in game 2 that I had in game 1, he'd have been pretty much wasted points.

I don't feel like I have enough anti-tank. My opponent was kind of an ass and brought two Land Raiders in a 1500 point game just to exploit that, and losing my Sicaran left me with no method of dealing with literally 1/3 of his army. So, perhaps it is not that I don't have enough anti-tank, but that it needs to be spread out better. One of my options for this is the Contemptor-Mortis. For a small points increase, I can give it Twin TL Lascannons instead of the Twin TL Autocannons. Relevant math:

2 TLLC vs AV12
1.94 hits, 1.29 glance+ (0.32 glance, 0.97 pen)
...vs AV11
1.94 hits, 1.61 glance+ (0.32 glance, 1.29 pen)
...vs AV10
1.94 hits, 1.94 glance+ (0.32 glance, 1.62 pen)

2 TLAC vs AV12
3.888 hits, 1.3 glance+ (0.65 glance, 0.65 pen)
...vs AV11
3.888 hits, 1.95 glance+ (0.65 glance, 1.3 pen)
...vs AV10
3.888 hits, 2.6 glance+ (0.65 glance, 1.95 pen)

Obviously, the Autocannons are going to have little effect on AV13 and no effect on AV14, but the Contemptor's main job is anti-flyer. But for the small tradeoff in chance for pen/glance against AV 11 and AV10, the lascannons will have better results on the damage table and will have a chance vs AV14, helping slightly with giving it triple purpose - anti transport, anti-flyer, and anti-tank. So, to address my anti-tank problem, I want to find the points to upgrade the Contemptor-Mortis to have two TL Lascannons instead.

When it comes to the Librarian and Terminators, I am looking at replacing the Terminators with a Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron and using either a Praetor or Centurion on Jetbike with them. The squadron could take a multimelta or plasma cannon, supplementing either my anti-tank or anti-TEQ punch along with their heavy bolters, while giving the Praetor Tough 5 (to help with any double-toughing shots) and mobility for everyone. Tentatively, I would replace my Librarian and Terminator Squad with:

Praetor
Jetbike, Iron Halo, Paragon Blade, Meltabombs
200

Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron
Multimelta
145

This does not leave enough points to upgrade the Contemptor-Mortis' weapons, but it does bring some additional anti-tank to the table as well as 'fixing' the problems with the footslogging terminators. If I use a Centurion instead of a Praetor, I can upgrade the Contemptor-Mortis' weapons and maybe squeeze in another jetbike. I think he'll be pretty much rubbish in close combat, though. 2+/5++, T5, 2 wounds, and a power weapon isn't too much of a threat. I do lose one scoring unit, but the Jetbikes can act as a denial unit and have the mobility to get around and do that objective-denying (or just go and grab linebreaker).

Moonstalker · November 8, 2013

I apologize once again for the double post, but I've come up with an updated list and I'm still looking for input on it. More now than previously, as I've got a couple hundred points to play with that I'm not entirely sure how I should use.

Centurion

Jetbike, Artificer Armor, Refractor Field, Power Weapon (Sword or Axe - not certain)

130

Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron

3 members, Plasma Cannon

150

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought

Twin Twin-Linked Autocannons

165

Legion Tactical Squad

20 members, Legion Vexilla

260

Legion Tactical Squad

20 members, Legion Vexilla

260

Sicaran Battle Tank

Lascannon Sponsons, Armored Ceramite

195

Predator

Plasma Executioner, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

135

This totals up to 1295 points, leaving me 205 to play with. I felt like two Predator Executioners in 1500 points might be a little much, and as much as I like them and the model, the rarity of the gun, even during the Crusade, would probably keep it from being so common in such a low points level. I think it was also probably a little much, power-wise, if I just want a fair all-comers list. So, I dropped it, and put a plasma cannon on the jetbike squad to spread the AP2 power out a little besides just toning it down. I've dropped the Librarian powers off the Centurion. I just feel like Crusade forces wouldn't have such powerful psykers leading them. That's just my head-canon, my view of how the Great Crusade might look. I also realized that Centurions are only Ld9, and an Ld9 Psyker, especially one so expensive, is not anything I want any part of. I've gone really cheap on the HQ, just having him as another guy in the Jetbike squadron. I could go cheaper, but as a Centurion, I think he would have a couple toys (power weapon, artificer armor, refractor field). I don't really intend to melee with the jetbikes, since their heavy bolters and plasma cannon are much more useful than their melee skills.

With the remaining points, I am considering some of the following options.

Contemptor-Mortis

Twin Twin-Linked Lascannons

185

-OR-

Sicaran Battle Tank

Lascannon Sponsons, Armored Ceramite

195

-OR-

Contemptor Dreadnought

Kheres-Pattern Assault Cannon, DCCW, Meltagun

205

-OR-

Whirlwind Scorpius

Additional Jetbike

Lascannon upgrade for Contemptor-Mortis and/or Predator

(I don't want to list the points here for these different things)

Any extra points in any of these I would just fill in with wargear. Auxilliary Drive for the Sicaran, Dozer Blade for the Predator, Meltabombs for the Centurion, etc. My main concern is what to bring to round out the list. I still feel like I need a bit of backup anti-tank, and I feel like I need one more AV13 vehicle to keep my mix of AV13 and troop blocks going. The Contemptor-Mortis and Sicaran options both bring anti-tank and anti-flyer (at least, I think of the Sicaran's main gun as good enough for anti-flyer, in a pinch). The Contemptor option brings some anti-tank with both the meltagun and the heavy 6 rending assault cannon, besides just hitting at strength 10 in melee. The WW scorpius would bring barrage fire (which is something my army currently has none of), anti-marine and slightly anti-tank, as well as leaving me with enough points to add another jetbike and some more upgrades to spread around.

I'm looking at one of the options for a Contemptor, though. They're AV13 with a 5+ invul, which is really quite tough. They also will not violate my wallet quite as brutally as another Sicaran would (or buying another Jetbike and a Whirlwind). So, if you've got suggestions on which one of these options I should take (or an option that you think I should take that isn't listed), I'm all ears.

ETA: Another option, could take a Vindicator with a Laser Destroyer Array instead of a Whirlwind Scorpius. I've had poor luck with Vindicators and demolisher cannons in the past, but a Vindicator with Laser Destroyer Array offers an interesting choice for a tank destroyer and won't be scattering pie plates onto my own troops. Bonus points, because the flavor text says that Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves made heavy use of Vindicators.

coloroutofspace · November 18, 2013

Hi, there.

I see no one is really giving any advice. Anyway, I thought there will be more interest in Heresy lists, since FW did a really good job with the books and the minis. There's the Sicarian Venator coming out, and by the look of it, it's a cheaper, non-Super Heavy version of the Cerberus Tank Destroyer, so maybe it could fit into your list.

Apart from that, I'd take a look at the Avenger Strike Fighter - with lascannons and Avenger bolt cannon, it could do a lot of damage to other aircraft, vehicles, and even power-armoured troops, no worries. Also, for the same reason, I'd look at Contemtor Mortis with 2 x Kheres. That's 12 Rending shots, so you can glance to death all but the toughest aircraft, and take down speeders, jetbikes, bikes and so on with ease.

I don't really agree that psykers would be unfluffy (well, level 1 or 2 at least) - not on the Loyalist side, since as far as I remember, many of them were sentenced to die on Istvaan :)

Two Executioners? Yeah, that sound more like Iron Hands/ Iron Warriors :)

What else? Those jetbikes... The minis look rather good, but I don't see how they would work with the rest of your list. Speeders, on the other hand, well... I've seen an all-Heavy Bolter squadron of these twice perform very well - it's a hail of shots that should not be underestimated.

Lastly, perhaps a cheap support unit, so that you'd have more scoring units?

Cheers! Oh, and by the way, I like your report :)

Moonstalker · November 19, 2013

Yeah, I saw the Venator model and the thread for it in the News and Rumor board here. It's quite good looking, but I'm afraid it'll be a dud when the rules for it come out. If it has an ordnance 1 neutron laser with the feedback special rule, it'll basically be useless. 1 out of every 3 shots will miss, so you'll only manage 4 hits in an entire game, assuming you're even in a position to take a shot. And when you do shoot, it being ordnance will force all other weapons on the tank to fire as snap shots. So, trying to build a dedicated tank hunter with it by adding lascannons to the sides is actually kind of a waste. I'm making a lot of guesses about how they'll adapt the Cerberus' gun to it, but so far I'm really afraid the Venator will just be useless.

Not much commentary here on my lists and rambling, but that's okay, I guess. I'm mostly thinking out loud, and maybe if I have some really stupid thoughts someone will say something and save me from myself. Otherwise, it helps me to write everything out. Articulating my reasoning like this gives me a chance to examine it all more thoroughly.

I think the Avenger can only be taken as a Lord of War choice for a Legion or as a Fast Attack choice for an Ordo Reductor allied detachment. At 1500 points, I don't have access to Lords of War, and I don't really feel like I have the points to squeeze in an allied detachment (though I have considered trying to squeeze in a Castellax Battle Automata when it comes time to expand to 2k). I also am not really a fan of the Avenger bolt cannon. The Primaris Lightning fighter from book 2 is a lot more alluring. Looks cool, very configurable for whatever role I want it to fill, some neat weapons I can't get anywhere else (like Kraken penetrator heavy missiles - they're 36 inch meltaguns that don't need half range!).

I thought of the Contemptor-Mortis with twin Kheres, and it actually has the best anti-armor performance between it and the Autocannon and Lascannon variants. However, the short range is pretty crippling when you consider that a Mortis needs to stand still to use its Helical targeting array. I can position one of the other two variants centrally and threaten any flyers or deep strikers no matter where they're coming into the battle. On the other hand, I don't have to use the Helical array to get some use out of it, and the twin-Kheres Mortis is cheaper than a standard twin-Kheres Contemptor.

I need some places to stick my HQ to make sure he doesn't get singled out and murderized. I could put him in one of my tactical squads on foot, but that actually kind of offends my sense of OCD. They're 20 man squads. 20 is a nice, even number. 21 is less so. And having one squad with 21 and the other with 20 just isn't acceptable. The jetbikes give me mobility for my HQ, another plasma cannon (spreads the plasma out so I don't lose my ap2 entirely if the executioner blows up), some denial units for contesting enemy objectives or grabbing linebreaker on last turn (as vehicles, landspeeders can't be denial units), and a little more emergency anti-tank (my current list has a meltabomb on the Centurion). It's not quite as good as having another scoring unit, but I think most of the scoring units I could get would be slow or easily killed.

From an effectiveness standpoint, I would kind of rather have a support squad with plasma guns than the Executioner in the list. But I just couldn't quite figure out how to make it work. They're going to need their own transport to make sure they're where they need to be/where the threats are, and to make sure they don't just die straight out (it's not really hard to just kill five marines, and they'll be a prime target both for their points cost and their weapons). A cheap squad with flamers, rotors, or volkites might be in the cards, though. I really like the rotor cannon models, and volkite weapons also look cool. I'm hoping to meet up with the rest of my group and do some playtesting against other armies in another couple weeks. I will actually probably get in another game against Terry tomorrow, this time against a Black Templars list (I think, he might also be bringing another Coteaz list instead). My current list is as above, but with an additional DCCW/Kheres Contemptor, Aux Drive for the Sicaran, and meltabombs on the Centurion. We'll see how it goes. I may change the list up after I wake up.

Sevatar · November 19, 2013

Good luck for your game. I agree on the Primaris Lightning - the customisation is brilliant. Personally, though it leaves you short on AA I really, really like the Scorpius. The D3+1 Barrage blasts will murderise Grey Knights, and it pretty cheap. However, as said it leaves you hobbled in the AA department,so a Contemptor Mortis probably the best option - but why not just get the standard Mortis for much cheaper? But, Rule of Cool (and immunity to most weapons e.g krak grenades) is why the Contemptor Mortis is equally good.

Good Luck.

coloroutofspace · November 20, 2013

I stand corrected on the Avenger toppic, it's the Lightning that's available at below 2000 pts. (and Raptor as heavy support), and it's better. And by the way, I just came to realise, that at 2000 pts, one could field 3 Lightnings, 3 Avengers, and 3 Raptors if he wished...

Those Volkites really look cool :) 30" range and you can threaten lighter vehicles. I'm looking forward to that playtesting!

Moonstalker · November 22, 2013

Back with another battle report. We actually didn't get to play until last night. Terry brought a (slightly modified) list I had made for him, and I brought a (slightly modified) list from what I had posted above.

First, my list:

Centurion
Jetbike, Artificer Armor, Refractor Field, Power Sword
130

Contemptor-Mortis
Twin TLAC
165

Legion Tactiacl Squad
20 Members, Legion Vexilla
260

Legion Tactiacl Squad
20 Members, Legion Vexilla
260

Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron
3 Members, Plasma Cannon
150

Primaris Lightning Strike Fighter
Twin-Linked Autocannon, 2 Kraken missiles, 2 Sunfury Missiles
195

Sicaran Battle Tank
Lascannon Sponsons, Armored Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive
205

Predator
Plasma Executioner, Heavy Bolter Sponsons
135

After the talk of flyers here, I had decided at the last minute to sub out the second Contemptor I had planned on with a Primaris-Lightning (with an Eldar fighter standing in as a proxy). I've never used a fighter before, but I was impressed with the amount of firepower and versatility that the Lightning seemed able to bring. In this build, it has the ability to put down 2 S6AP3 pie plates and hit with 2 S8AP1 armourbane missiles, as well as a respectable mix of TLLC and TLAC fire. Terry brought the following list:

Coteaz
100

Inq Henchmen Squad
2 Jokaero, 2 Crusaders (SS/Power Axe), 3 Warrior Acolytes (Carapace/PG), 3 Warrior Acolytes (Carapace/SB)
187

Inq Henchmen Squad
2 Jokaero, 2 Crusaders (SS/Power Axe), 3 Warrior Acolytes (Carapace/PG), 3 Warrior Acolytes (Carapace/SB)
187

Inq Henchmen Squad
2 Jokaero, 2 Crusaders (SS/Power Axe), 3 Warrior Acolytes (Carapace/PG), 3 Warrior Acolytes (Carapace/SB)
187

Chimera
55

Chimera
55

Chimera
55

Grey Knight Interceptor Squad
Justicar (Halberd), One Daemonhammer, One Psycannon
155

Grey Knight Interceptor Squad
Justicar (Halberd), One Daemonhammer, One Psycannon
155

Dreadknight
Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator
235

Stormtalon Gunship
Twin-linked Lascannon, Psybolt Ammo
145

I had provided him with this list, with a psyfleman dread in place of the Stormtalon, as an example of what he could be doing with henchmen instead of his weird razorback lists which struggled to get any firepower out. When I asked him if it was alright if I brought the Lightning proxy, he said sure, and asked if he could bring a Stormtalon in his list (even though GK can't normally take a Stormtalon). I said sure, we could give it a go, and said he could buy the psybolt ammo at normal costs. So, nothing funny going on with his list making there, it was all agreed on beforehand. He was a few points over (the list I provided as specced was 1506 points, and the Stormtalon was more expensive than the dreadnought it replaced), but the Warrior Acolyte or two that he might've had to remove to meet points did not end up mattering.

We set up the terrain in agreeable manner (a few hills, a leftover paint can from my kitchen remodel as a big silo, some ruins, vehicle wrecks, etc). Terry isn't much for complex missions, holding objectives, etc, so he had asked that we play the same mission setup from last time - dawn of war, purge the unclean. I agreed, so we started rolling up. Terry once again won the roll for deployment, and chose his preferred deployment zone. On my advice, he pulled psychic powers from the divination table for Coteaz. I had told him that his BS3 squads really needed the prescience boost that divination could provide. He got Misfortune, swapped for Prescience, and then got Perfect Timing on his second roll. He rolled on the command traits table for his warlord trait, and got the 12" leadership bubble. I, on the other hand, rolled a six on the crusade table, and got Child of Terra. I didn't feel this was particularly useful for a non-melee HQ and squad. He had one more set of rolls to make, and that was for his Jokaero. Henchman Squad 1 (HS1 from here out) rolled +12 inches. HS2 got a 6, giving it two rolls on the table. The first roll produced a 5++ save, while the second roll was an additional six, and thus discounted. HS3 got a 5++ save as well.

Contrary to our last two games, I won the roll for first turn. I elected to go second, however, as I thought that having my flyer potentially come in after his would give me an edge up in the dogfight that was sure to happen. I made plans for a conservative deployment, while he started to set up. He had a small ruin in the center of his deployment zone, our "silo" in the back right corner, and a hill splitting the left flank through the mid field. His dreadknight and Interceptor Squad 1 (IS1) set up just to the left of the ruin, from my perspective, and IS2 set up just to the right of it, with his chimeras forming a wall of AV12 behind IS2, with Henchman Squads 1, 2, and 3 in order from center towards the right. Coteaz hitched a right with HS1, planning to make the most out of their range bonus through his squad-buffing powers.

I deployed towards the right flank of my deployment zone, backing my Sicaran into the corner with the Contemptor-Mortis in front of it to provide it some cover. There was a large vehicle wreck in the center-right of my deployment zone, and I concealed my Predator completely behind it, with Tactical Squad A in the center, deployed in a 5 wide/4 high block as far forward as I could squeeze them, with 2 inch spacings between all models. Squad B deployed on the opposite side of the wreck in a mirror of Squad A's deployment, filling the space between the Contemptor/Sicaran and the Predator. I was very wary of any first-turn teleport moves and potential sacrifice of interceptor squads, trying to get some rends on the rear armor of my quite valuable predator. My jetbikes filled in the space between the Predator and the board edge, positioned to start making a run towards the left flank, my intention being to swing wide and shoot into the side of the Interceptor squads if they stuck around in the middle for too long.

I failed to seize the initiative, so turn 1 startedoff with Terry's psychic powers. He succeeded with both, buffing HS1 but suffering a double-1 perils on his prescience cast. Using jump pack moves, he brings the dreadknight and both interceptor squads to center-left field, right in the middle, then goes right into his shooting phase. Coteaz's squad lets loose with the might of two 60 inch range lascannons at the Sicaran hiding in the corner, and only manages one hit - and no pens. HS2 and 3 are more lucky, each scoring a hit, with one pen and one glance. I made a mistake here: I could have taken a 5+ cover save against both of these, as I had set my Contemptor up in front of the Sicaran for this very purpose, but it was still in my mind that I couldn't take a cover save because of Coteaz's perfect timing (which only affected HS1). So, I lost two hull points and the left sponsons for my lack of save-taking.

After this, the Chimeras all open up, with HS1's targeting Squad A and HS2 and 3 targeting Squad B, and with some mixture of good and bad luck (his and mine, respectively), I lose 2 marines out of Squad A and 5 out of Squad B. He follows up immediately with shooting from the Dreadknight and Interceptors, all aimed squarely at Squad A, but both our lucks take a turn. Despite weathering fire from 8 storm bolters, 2 psycannons, and a heavy incinerator, I only lose 4 more marines. Still up for a fight, Squad A's morale does not waver.

Starting my turn, I march Squad A forward, reforming their front line and bringing troops forward in the block, while Squad B pulls back, reforming in a 5-wide-and-3-high block as they march around the wrecked vehicle, moving to meet the oncoming Grey Knights. My Predator repositions slightly, peeking around the wreck just enough that it can get its mighty Executioner cannon trained on the dreadknight. My jetbikes get moving, heading 12 inches towards the left, hugging the board edge, keeping good spacing - always wary of getting surprised by a Dreadknight with a flamer. Then, it's time to open fire. The Contemptor-Mortis and Sicaran let loose with a hail of autocannon fire at Coteaz's Chimera, scoring a half dozen hits between them - and not as much as a single glance. The Executioner's main gun fires, but the aim is off, and the Dreadknight is only winged twice, and missed entirely a third time. With its power field functioning well, it's able to shrug off one of the two hits. The jetbikes open fire at IS1, with the plasma cannon missing wildly - right into the Dreadknight. Their heavy bolters start to chew into the squad, though, and manage to work through the armor of one of the Emperor's Finest. Squad A has more luck when they open fire on IS2, their well-aimed bolter fire bringing down 3 Grey Knights - including the Justicar and his Psycannon-bearing friend. The remaining two decide to stick around, even in the face of such firepower.

Turn 2 begins, and Terry passes his reserve rolls. His Stormtalon comes swooping in on the far right flank, right against the board edge, moving forward just far enough to bring its psybolt-shooting assault cannon and twin-linked lascannon into range of the side armor of my Sicaran. Coteaz and HS1 disembark from their Chimera after it moves forward six inches and turns around to show its rear armor, while the Dreadknight moves another 12 inches forwards, towards my left corner, moving in to cut off the jetbikes.

My Contemptor-Mortis, having stood still in the previous phase, pivots on the spot and opens up on the Stormtalon as it swoops in. Four rounds head out, looking like they'll center-punch that paper flyer, but the pilot evades at the last second. Two shots ping off his armor, while he evades a third - but the fourth is still a solid glance. Though busy with evading the incoming fire, the Stormtalon pilot manages to core the Sicaran with a solid lascannon hit, wrecking the tank. Henchman Squads 2 and 3 open up on the Contemptor with their lascannons, but the ill-trained monkeys wielding them only manage one hit - and were it not for the Contemptor's energy field, it would've been a pen. Their Chimeras split their fire, one shooting at Squad B, the other at the Contemptor's side armor, but neither has any effect. Coteaz and his squad - and their Chimera - all open fire on Squad A, delivering a brutal fusilade of bolter, plasma, lascannon, and multilaser fire (and some attacks from a weird mechanical bird). Despite all that, they only manage to kill six Luna Wolves. They stand in heroic defiance of that massed firepower, passing their leadership test with double 1's. The Dreadknight threatens the nearby jetbikes with a gout of flame, but the Centurion and his entourage are entirely unfazed by it.

At the beginning of my turn, my plane comes in, and I quickly make plans to have it first engage the Stormtalon, and then have the ability to turn and open up on the mass of infantry and transports in the center. Moving left to right, barely leaving my deployment zone, it flys over the Jetbikes and Predator and lines up a shot on the Stormtalon. Squad B keeps coming around, but they're wildly out of position, and the Jetbikes move forward slightly, preparing to pour their fire into either of the interceptor squads in the center or the dreadknight in front of them. Wanting to be certain that the Stormtalon problem was resolved, I open up on it with all I've got to throw at it fron the Primaris-Lightning, firing both Kraken missiles, the twin-linked autocannon, and the twin-linked lascannon at it. As expected, the Stormtalon can't evade that kind of firepower, and suffers 4 hull points worth of damage - with only 1 hull point left to give. Sadly, there are no nearby Grey Knights for it to crash onto.

The rest of the turn plays out much more poorly. The Predator Executioner manages only one hit on the Dreadknight with its plasma cannon, and the heavy bolters manage 5 more hits - but only the plasma hit and one heavy bolter hit wound. Though the Dreadknight's armor is proof against hte heavy bolter, its energy field can't stop the power of the plasma round and it is reduced to one wound. The jetbikes are forced to pour their firepower into the Dreadknight - with it moving so aggressively, and without any melee element to speak of, I can't afford to let it get any closer. Unfortunately, the plasma cannon misses entirely, and none of the heavy bolters can even score a wound. Squad A shows Interceptor Squad 1 the Fury of the Legion, and manages to only kill the closest Grey Knight - luckily, he's the one holding a psycannon.

With turn 3 starting, Terry refreshes the psychic blessings on Squad 1 and orders his Chimeras to dance - Squad 1's turns its front armor back to face the enemy, while Squad 2's and 3's both turn to show their rear armor so that their troops can disembark. Both Interceptor Squads move forward as far as they can to try and get to grips with Squad A, while the Dreadknight moves to 1 inch away from the Jetbikes. In a confusing hail of fire, all three henchman squads and their chimeras all fire into the Lightning with a mixture of lascannon, multilaser, and plasmagun fire. The majority of it misses harmlessly, but enough hits to force evasions. With its agility, the Lightning avoids several would-be hits. With their perfect timing and prescience, Coteaz's squad hits with both lascannons and one plasma shot, penning with all three - and wiping the lightning from the sky. With a final defiant gesture, the pilot steers the burning plane towards one of the nearby interceptor squads, but fails to take anyone with him.

Interceptor Squads 1 and 2 both fire into Squad A, and succeed in killing one marine with their storm bolter fire. The Dreadknight fires at the jetbikes, scores 4 hits, 3 wounds... and two marines fail their saves. With the assault phase rolling around, both Interceptor Squads declare their charge into Squad A (who are too busy reloading after their last round of shooting), but they can't seem to actually make it across the open ground between them, with hilariously low charge distance rolls of 2 and 5. The dreadknight, however, cannot fail to get into melee.

The ensuing combat is essentially the crux of the game. The Dreadknight only manages to kill the one remaining biker - the one with the plasma cannon - and fails to deal with the Centurion, but the Centurion also cannot get any wounds on the Dreadknight, despite a plethora of hits (even a set of quadruple sixes). Though I went through my shooting phase, killed a Chimera, dealt some damage to one of the Henchman squads, when it came to the assault phase again and I failed to kill the Dreadknight (and lost my Centurion), I conceded. I was down too many kill points, my killing power was too badly hampered from the loss of my Sicaran and Lightning, and I thought the game was unrecoverable.

So, what did I learn?

While the Primaris-Lightning seems good in theory, 11/11/10 and 2 hull points is too fragile for a 200 point flyer. And yeah, it's not 200 points base, but with even a modest weapon load out its price quickly escalates to that level. It nearly withstood a turn of shooting from Terry's entire army, but it did not survive that in the end. It brings some interesting weapon options (Kraken Missiles, Sunfury Missiles, both fill some key niches in my army), but their single-use nature and the high cost of the flyer while being so fragile is just too much. A Storm Eagle has higher armor, transport capacity, and more hull points, while bringing some good weapons systems to the fight. In that comparison, I think the Lightning falls short. However, in my particular army style, I think that I cannot afford to take a flyer at all. If I am going to do a vehicle heavy list, I need all the vehicles out there to present a plethora of targets to make it difficult to focus any single target down. Having one of them off the table and in reserves is not helping, especially when it comes at the cost of my redundancy.

Without a second Executioner and with a monstrous creature and a couple marine squads to take down, I could not afford to lose my Executioner to an alpha strike on turn 1. So I hid it, and tried to hide my Sicaran as well (relying on my Contemptor's 5++ save to protect it while providing the Sicaran with a 5+ cover behind it). And while I thought I would be doing my opponents a favor by not forcing them to face two Executioner cannons, I feel like I really needed the second one. The jetbikes were really just useless. They were helpless in melee and their shooting was ineffective. I've never been a fan of heavy bolters, and I am quickly getting soured on plasma cannons. I did not score a single direct hit with any of my plasma cannon shots in that game, every one was a miss to a greater or lesser degree.

My Contemptor-Mortis was a real badass, and if it weren't for a lucky cover save it would've plastered that Stormtalon in just one round of interceptor shooting. As it was, it forced the Stormtalon into evasion, and then it lucked out with some lucky sixes on its to hits. Granted, some are expected with the number of shots and rerolls it can throw, but it got two, and followed it up with some more high rolls for pens. I am fairly consistently impressed with the performance of the Contemptors I field. Their armor profile is strong, they've got an invul, they've got good weapon selections. They're a little pricey sometimes, they don't have a high max speed, but they can move and shoot better than a predator.

My Legionares are really kinda just there. I really like the idea of big blocks of marines, it's very evocative of the Crusade to me. But their limited maneuverability and weapon selections mean that if they aren't within 24 inches of an infantry unit, they are only a fire soak. With 20 members, they're actually a pretty good fire soak, and can weather several turns of firepower, so they're at least hard to get rid of. But I can't just spend 1/3 of my points on two squads that aren't killing things.

coloroutofspace · November 22, 2013

Read your report and your thoughts. and took time to ponder... So, a few thoughts of mine, if you don't mind.

First,
yes, 20 marine squads are very Crusades-like, and if I were you, I'd
keep them that way for now, and play some more. But there's the option
of making 3 10-man squads in rhinos, for the same points more of less.
They are a fire-soak, but they should be, I guess, and there aren't
really that many other things out there, that could take this amount of
punishment and keep fighting. On top of that you only faced one type of
an enemy so far.

Also, I wouldn't discard that
Lightning just yet. There were some unlucky rolls, consider giving it
another shot, seriously. It's not like you bought the model already, and
you're stuck with it.

So, taking all that into account I did some tweaking of my own of your list -
forgive me for being that bold, brother, but there was but one thought
guiding me in this endeavour, namely to see Loyalists crush their
enemies, whoever those are :)

(This is in keeping
with the overall feel of your list, so 20-man squads, Contemptor, and
Sicarian - those are cool, so they stay)

Master of Signal (Art. Armour) 95 pts

Apothecarion (2 Apothecaries, Augury Scanners) 100 pts

2 x Legion Tactical Squad (20 members) 500 pts

Contemptor Mortis (TLAC) 165 pts

Contemptor Mortis (TL-Kheres) 180 pts

Sicarian 135 pts

(That's the core, 1175 pts so far, and I have 3 options for you)

Option 1:

Heavy Support Squad (6 members, 6 Volkite Culverins) 215 pts

Tarantula Sentry Guns (TLLS) 80 pts

- leaves 10 spare points

Option 2:

Heavy Support Squad (7 members, 7 Volkites) 245 pts

Rapier Laser Destroyer 55 pts

- 15 pts left

Option 3:

2 Primaris Lightning Fighters

-
55 pts for Lightning upgrades (first thought, I'd go with Sunfury on
both, or Phosphex on both, but with 55 pts you can have almost anything)

Apothecaries
give you more staying power 5+ FNP for a 20-man squad - perfect. Plus
Augury Scanners, so you get Interceptor USR on all those bolters. Heavy
Support Culverins - that's 28 (or 24) 45" S6 Deflagrate shots, again,
with Interceptor (Master of Signal goes here). 2 Contemptor Mortis, both
with Interceptor and Skyfire. Still worried about anyone deep striking
anywhere near you? Your opponent should :) Consider those Volkites
shooting at Marines/Grey Knights: 27 shots at BS4 -> average 18 hits
-> 15 wounds -> 5 failed armour saves -> 5 more deflagrate auto-hits

(Ok, because with me using my cursed touch-pad I somehow managed to delete what I wrote here, I'll make it shorter) A foot-slogging, but fluffy and shooty Heresy list, no matter what the option. You'll be going for a board-wipe, but hey, he wants those objectives - 'you want them? come and claim them!' Option 3 leaves Master of Signal without his dedicated HS Squad, so you could swap him for a Primus Medicae, replacing one Apotherary, freeing some points to take a Rapier or even squeeze in 2 Tarantulas. There are just my ideas, feel free to use them or not, and fine-tune :)

Cheers!

Moonstalker · November 23, 2013

No need to apologize about offering up any suggestions. If I wasn't looking for alternate ideas and lists, I'd have just kept all this to myself. The more discussion and suggestions the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Some of your suggestions have really mirrored several of my own thoughts. I'm definitely looking at some way to bring two Contemptors, but I'm not sure of their loadouts right now. Likewise, while I don't like making uneven squads, I've been thinking that apothecaries may be necessary to keep my tactical squads on their feet. The Master of Signal is another thing I was thinking of - possibly even putting him in with a squad of Rapier Laser Destroyers. I was considering a Forge Lord and a Castellax Battle Automata Cohort more, though. They're really quite beastly and would present a huge threat that my opponent would have to deal with. Strength 6, Tough 7, Wounds 4, 3+/5++, Monstrous Creatures, with those nasty Mauler Bolt Cannons (and the option for Darkfire Cannons), for barely more than the cost of a naked Predator. The Forge Lord would also be able to help repair my vehicles on the field, needing only a 4+ to restore a hull point, mobility, or a weapon. They'd provide me with both a strong melee unit (their relatively mediocre WS and Init aside) and some unique weapon options.

With a Sicaran and a couple Contemptors, I feel like I can sort out my anti-armor fairly well. Likewise, the big blocks of marines give me a lot of infantry killing options, at least for infantry that gets close enough. I think my sergeants might need power fists and artificer armor, at the least, so that I can more confidently engage a rampaging MC or something. That and an apothecary would really beef up each of those squads, but I feel like I really need something to deal with TEQ and MCs from range, and I just don't know what that should be. Maybe it's the Rapiers, as you suggest.

One thing I haven't considered so far is fortifications. I could possibly grab something like an Imperial Bastion, throw a heavy weapon squad on top, and focus my defenses around it.

I'm not really sold on the Lightnings. Honestly, for the points (and the $$ - I can pretty much buy and arm two Contemptors for the price of one Lightning plus its weapons), I would rather bring a Contemptor Talon over two Lightnings.

coloroutofspace · November 24, 2013

I'd keep Rapiers and lascannons trained on high-AP vehicles (or transports, depending on the turn and situation on the ground), and throw S6/S7 shots at MCs, because you have plenty of those shots, some of them rending. Throw the bolter shots at terminators if you face them - Fury of the Legion from 1 squad at 24" or rapid firing at 12" should get you 2 or three kills per turn. Kheres seems to be the most versatile weapon, able to deal with almost any target save for Land Raiders and Spartans.

I'm unsure about the Forge Lord, he's very Iron Hands, and I don't really see those repair rolls to be that helpful, considering what you have to pay for him in points, he should be in CC, and with the rest of the list, CC should be avoided. I only see taking regular Techmarines inside an Achilles or something similar worthwile. One could, say, put a Forge Lord with some Terminators in a Spartan, but I'd only do it for fun, and not to win, cause that huge amount of points could be better spent on something else.

I say, take Contemptors and you have everything you need. Castellax could be fun, but 6 Mauler shots for the price of a Contemptor Mortis? Meh... :)

Bastions are at the far end on my 'to get' list, but that's just because the idea of a force carrying around a portable Bastion, just doesn't sit well with me :)

Lastly, I'd have a few games with Tacticals not carrying any extra gear, before deciding on spending further points.

Moonstalker · November 25, 2013

Well, all the games I've done with the tacticals so far have had them all outfitted with nothing but a Legion Vexilla. I'm too afraid of losing an entire 20 man squad to a bad morale check to field them without that. Modelling-wise, I also want to accentuate the legionary motifs in the army, so squad banners and helmet crests for the sergeants are going to be important. I rather wish I could find the points to give everyone an extra close combat weapon, that's something I really miss from playing Space Wolves. Don't think I have the points for it, though. I can do a power fist and artificer armor on the sergeants at least. That'll give him some very literal punch in melee.

I've rolled some of your suggestions into a new list that I've been cooking up the last couple days.

Centurion

-Master of Signal, Artificer Armor

95

Contemptor-Mortis

-Twin Twin-linked Lascannons

185

Contemptor

-Kheres Assault Cannon, Dreadnought CCW with built in meltagun

205

Apothecarion

-2 Apothecaries, both with Artificer Armor

110

Legion Tactical Squad

-20 members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Fist

285

Legion Tactical Squad

-20 members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Fist

285

Legion Heavy Support Squad

-5 Members, 5 Missile Launchers

160

Sicaran Battle Tank

-Lascannon Sponsons

175

So, a few notes right off the bat. I'm completely willing to change out the TLLC on the Mortis, the Lascannon Sponsons on the Sicaran, and the Legion Heavy Support for something else. I want some kind of sponsons on the Sicaran, because I think it will just look naked without them. I put the TLLC on the Mortis for some backup anti-tank and because I am worried about AV12 and MC flyers (Storm Ravens, Heldrakes, Necrons, Flyrants - all things I might face when I actually get around to meeting up with the rest of my gaming group). The Legion Heavy Support with MLs... I could swap the MLs for something else. Switching the lascannons on the sicaran and possibly dropping the AA from the apothecaries could free up plenty of points for different weapons. Likewise, could take away the sergeant's heavy weapon and give him BP/CCW/nuncio-vox to get points there. Missile Launchers have some good versatility, though. Taking a Rapier Battery instead of the Heavy Support Squad doesn't seem like an option at 1500 points, since the book says to use the standard force org and not the Age of Darkness force org (with 4 elites slots) at 1500 points. It could also be a support squad or Seeker Squad. If a support squad, I could potentially change the HQ to a Primus Medicae. Or to a Vigilator for the Seeker Squad.

I've added the standard Contemptor as a sort of homage to how we've always seen dreadnoughts (assault cannon and DCCW) throughout the various editions of 40k. I know I could get way more dakka out of a twin-kheres mortis for cheaper, but I like this visually. I could also buy a second Kheres and magnetize, if this proves to just be dead weight. I used a meltagun here because the twin-linked bolter would be useless. I also went with a normal Contemptor so that I have the slot reserved for a Contemptor Talon, in case I want to add another Contemptor as I expand towards 2k in the future.

coloroutofspace · November 25, 2013

Ok, looking fine. I totally forgot about the Force Org thing! I just thought 'hell, Rapiers kill cheap, why not put one somwhere' :) It's a good idea to be able to change the regular Contemptor into a Mortis one, cheap $-wise. Somewhat off topic, but the more I think about it, the more Javelin Speeders appeal to me - as a way to bring in some more lascannon shots or as an alternative to ML Heavy Support. Ah, it's not easy, deciding on spending money with FW...

Sanct · November 28, 2013

I suggest going heavy bolter sponsons on the sicaran. It already has that hull mounted one and the accelerator ac meshes well with it. Lascannon are good but confuse the targeting I do with the sicaran.

The contemptor could have fun with a graviton gun over the melta. In 30k, easy access to armoured ceramite really hampers melta and the graviton pings hp off vehicles more reliably (av14 being the main problem) You can also use the grav pulse to limit enemy mobility by adding areas of dangerous terrain in front of enemy advances.

I'm not a fan of the HSS with missile launchers. It's expensive for what they do and small infantry squads pay through the nose in the heresy books.
I'm surprised you didn't put phosphex on the primaris-lighning when you trialed it. Heavy 2, blast, barrage and crawling fire on a d6'' scattering bomb run? That would bbq any unit but then I think you're right on the analysis - av11 and 2hp is very fragile when it's about 200 points.

Do you need the artificer armour on the apothecaries? They should be fairly easy to keep out of trouble with the tooled up sarge's
How about using a primus medicae as your hq and dropping an apothecary? Then you could pull in a whirlwind scorpius.

Something like:

Centurion
-Primus Medicae, Power Sword
100

Regular Mortis
-Twin Twin-linked Lascannons
155

Contemptor
-Kheres Assault Cannon, Dreadnought CCW with built in Graviton Gun
205

Apothecarion
-1 Apothecary
45

Legion Tactical Squad
-20 members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Fist
285

Legion Tactical Squad
-20 members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Fist
285

Sicaran Battle Tank
-Heavy Bolter Sponsons
155

Sicaran Battle Tank
-Heavy Bolter Sponsons
155

Whirlwind Scorpius
115

Total
1500

Dropped the mortis contemptor to a regular mortis since all it was doing was costing an extra 30 for 1 more av on the front.

Moonstalker · November 28, 2013

Ok, looking fine. I totally forgot about the Force Org thing! I just thought 'hell, Rapiers kill cheap, why not put one somwhere' It's a good idea to be able to change the regular Contemptor into a Mortis one, cheap $-wise. Somewhat off topic, but the more I think about it, the more Javelin Speeders appeal to me - as a way to bring in some more lascannon shots or as an alternative to ML Heavy Support. Ah, it's not easy, deciding on spending money with FW...

The Javelin Speeders do bring an impressive amount of firepower in their stock form, and depending on what I was facing, it'd be quite tempting to bring some of them with a couple hunter killers combined with their base missile launcher. Outflank with it and peg a transport or medium tank right in the side armor with 4 s8 shots.

The price of the model itself, though? It's just so far out of proportion with the points cost of the model that it's hard to justify getting them in any quantity.

Redacted for length

Well, I think you're looking at the difference between a Mortis and Contemptor Mortis in the wrong light. Yes, it's a 30 point difference, but you're getting more than just one point of armor. Just putting the armor aside, you're getting a 5++ save vs shooting. For those 30 points, you increase the survivability of the unit by 33%. That it is an invul save and not a cover save is even more important, considering the plethora of methods for ignoring cover that are now showing up in the metagame. Now, in addition to that, that one point of armor is very important. All the strength 7 shooting that is normally used for killing light vehicles, missile pods, autocannons, serpent shield, plasmaguns, etc, all of that can now only glance you from the front. No more losing a vehicle to an explodes-on-5 from a penetrating plasma gun shot. It makes you immune to krak grenades, scatter lasers, multilasers, star cannons, volkites, all the spammy strength 6 shooting that does double duty between anti-infantry and anti-light vehicle. It's one point of armor, but it is the point of armor that promotes the Contemptor to heavy armor, and demands the attention of your enemy's truly heavy weapons - lascannons, multimeltas, etc.

It would also present a weakness in my wall of AV13. If I have just one vehicle with AV12 and the rest is AV13 or better, all of those common s7 shots will be focused on the one vehicle that they can be really effective against while my opponent's heavier guns start chewing away at my heavier armor. It would literally be the weak spot in my armor. When it gets wrecked on turn one, I'm down 155 points and all my anti-air.

(The other important point here is that I'm the only one in my group who is getting into 30k, everyone else is just sticking with their normal armies. We might fight like it's during the Crusade, but Marines will actually be the minority of my opponents)

I was spooked by the Deadly Cargo special rule, and a little turned off by the price. I misread the Deadly Cargo rule when I was going about things and thought it was a guaranteed explosion if you took a hit, but it's only a 1 in 6. Not really that bad, but still bad. It only matters on the first hit you take, as the second you're losing the plane anyway. As things go, I thought the plane was too expensive and too fragile in the first place. Spending extra points on the phosphex just to make it more fragile... meh. I'd rather the sunfury. Sure, they're gets hot, but it's a 1-in-12 chance of a glance on firing one of them. So one out of every six games that you fire two sunfury missiles in, you'll take one glancing hit. Not worth getting upset over.

I don't need AA on the apothecaries, it's mostly there as protection against precision shots. If there is a good use for the points elsewhere, I'm entirely ready to drop it. The meltagun on the Contemptor was to give it a little more shooting goodness (maybe for popping a Land Raider and then charging what was inside?), but it's also not important. You're right that a graviton gun could bring some good tactical options to the table, like slowing down enemy infantry or maybe getting a tank immobilized with a terrain test or something. It's worth considering over the meltagun.

Double Sicarans is cool, but too expensive for me. I'm already dreading how much I'm going to spend on this army and looking at where I can cut corners. I'll probably be selling my Shadowsword, maybe my Hellhammer, and probably my Ultramarines to help fund it. I disagree about the lascannons confusing targetting with the tank. If the Sicaran had PotMS, I might agree with you that it can make both a good dakka platform and a good anti-vehicle platform. Lacking that, you're going to be wanting to use the brutal firepower of the accelerator autocannons on tanks, and backing that up with lascannons is ideal. That's not to say heavy bolters don't have their place - they are good for cheaply decreasing the odds of losing your main guns to a weapon destroyed result, and they keep the sides of the model from looking bare. I would rather pay for the lascannons and lose the shooting potential of the hull heavy bolter, than put heavy bolter sponsons on it and waste the main gun's shooting on infantry.

The WW Scorpius does provide some solid S8 shooting for cheaper than a missile-armed heavy support squad does, and with Barrage, too. I hadn't quite looked at it like that before (mentally, I was comparing it to the other artillery options), and in the point cost analysis I think the Scorpius wins. It would also provide another AV13 vehicle for me. I still have to deal with the specter of my nebulous budget for this army, and a Scorpius is more expensive than the heavy support squad it would replace. It's a great model and worth considering, though. Going kinda hand-in-hand with this, though, is the Primus Medicae vs Master of Signal debate. The MoS actually brings some really great force multiplication through the cognis signum. Being able to push my heavy support squad, a tactical squad, or the Sicaran up to BS5 for a vital round of shooting can really turn the tide. That is useful in pretty much every situation. The Primus Medicae doesn't really bring much more than an Apothecary, besides counting as my HQ choice. The Sacred Trust special rule is just... really bad. In 1/6 of missions, it will help me 1/3 of the time, assuming he is within 6 inches of a unit that is entirely wiped out. Okay, technically, it could work in the Scouring and Big Guns Never Tire besides just Purge the Alien. But I don't even have any fast attack choices, and if I took your advice I wouldn't have any heavy support infantry either. It's good from the standpoint of "I can have two apothecaries and a 40 point HQ tax." But the Master of Signal will give me force multiplication through the cognis signum and the bombardment. And besides the ballistic skill buff, he also grants his squad night vision AND blocks infiltrators within 18" AND gives his squad interceptor against deep strikes within 18".

I really cannot say enough good things about the cognis signum.

If I decide on the WW Scorpius, then I really don't have any place to stick the MoS, aside from one of the tactical squads. Which could be beneficial, as he can buff one squad's Fury of the Legion in one turn, and then buff the other squad the next turn, or something, but it's not quite the same as giving him a squad of heavy weapons to direct. In which case, I could see going with the Primus Medicae. I don't think the Primus Medicae has anything to offer over the MoS and an Apothecary besides 'cheaper,' though.

I'm currently thinking about the Volkite suggestions from earlier. It'll make the heavy weapon squad more expensive, but they're another 30k-themed element I could work into the army and would be more effective at taking down monstrous creatures (I did the math) and infantry. The drawback is less anti-vehicle, and one of my plans for expansion towards 2000 was going to be flakk missiles for the squad for a little backup anti-air. The other thought was autocannons, I really, really like the models for marines with autocannons. The points for the volkites would probably come from the artificer armor on the apothecaries.

Moonstalker · January 2, 2014

Well, had another battle today with this yesterday. I used my latest list from this thread, dropping the AA from the Apothecaries and using Volkite Culverins on the Heavy Support Squad. It was 2k points vs 2 1k lists, so I pushed to 2k with:

Land Raider Phobos

-Armored Ceramite

270

Legion Terminator Squad

-Cataphractii Armor, 4 Power Axes, 1 Thunderhammer, 1 Plasma Blaster, 4 Combi-Plasma

228

List came in at 2003. Played against Terry and his boyfriend Richard. Terry ran the following list:

Ordo Malleus Inq

-Psyker, Force Sword, Power Armor

Purifier Squad

-5 Members, 2 Psycannons, 1 Daemonhammer, Justicar with Halberd

GK SS

-5 Members, 1 Psycannon, Justicar with Halberd

GK SS

-5 Members, 1 Psycannon, Justicar with Halberd

Razorback

-TL Assault cannon, Psybolt Ammo

(one of these for each of the above squads)

Dreadknight

-Heavy Psycannon

Dreadnought

-TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

Richard was running Eldar. He's pretty new to the game. I didn't have time to take my usual notes for writing a batrep as I focused on teaching him rules (though we've played several 500 and 750 point matches before this. this was also his first time with the new Eldar codex). I'll just quickly add what I remember from his list.

Farseer

-Jetbike

Fire Dragon Squad

-5 Members

Jetbike Squad

-3 Members, 1 Shuriken Cannon

Guardian Defender Squad

-10 members, 1 Brightlance Platform

Wave Serpent

-TL Brightlance, Shuriken Cannon

Crimson Hunter

-Exarch

Wraithlord

-2 Flamers, 1 Starcannon, 1 Scatter Laser

Fire Prism

-Shuriken Cannon

They decided to nominate Richard's Farseer as the Warlord for their armies. It was Emperor's Will, Hammer and Anvil, they went first. Terry set up his razorbacks in a line, side-by-side, at the edge of their deployment zone on my right flank. Dreadknight and Wraithlord in the middle. Jetbikes, Wave Serpent with guardians inside, and fire prism in the back left quarter. I deployed in a denied flank on my left table quarter, set my heavy support squad up on a hill in the back for overwatch, Contemptor-Mortis forward, on top of a wrecked vehicle for good line of site, standard contemptor in the center, behind terrain, ready to engage the Dreadknight in melee if necessary, Land Raider next to it with terminators inside. One tactical squad to hold my center-right flank and one to hold my left flank. Sicaran hiding behind the wrecked vehicle my Contemptor-Mortis was standing vigil on. Kind of risky to deploy the CM in the open like that, but I knew I couldn't move him in my movement phase if I wanted to have skyfire/interceptor next turn to deal with the Crimson Hunter.

Their first turn was pretty inneffectual overall. Prescienced Fire Prism failed to score a pen on the CM, grey knights moved up 6 inches in their transports, disembarked six inches, and started chewing into the tactical squad on that flank. Armor and FNP saves kept them mostly on their feet. Wave Serpent also failed to do much with its bright lance.

I pulled my right flank back, away from the grey knights advance, and pushed forward on the left towards the eldar. Sicaran ripped up the wave serpent with 2 glances and 2 pens. He didn't use his serpent shield, so he was able to downgrade the pens to glances, but that was still enough to glance the wave serpent to death. Despite being out of line of sight, Terry's bunched up GK were too juicy a target, so I risked the orbital bombardment on turn 1, despite the need to lay into the MCs in the middle with my volkites. Risk paid off, I got 3 shots with the barrage, and the first shot landed dead on. I killed his HQ, 3 of his purifiers, one squad of GK SS, 1 man out of the second GK SS squad, stunned, shaken, and immobilized the razorbacks. Basically gutted his army on turn 1. I had less luck with my terminators, I shoved them out of the land raider and opened up on the wraithlord. Despite having 10 plasma shots, I managed only 2 wounds, and lost two terminators to overheat. Thus proving once again that I cannot pass terminator saves. Land Raider and Contemptor finished off the wraithlord, with one sponson on the land raider nailing the fire prism for an immobilized result. CM also hit the fire prism, glance and a pen - pen saved by jink.

Richard's Crimson Hunter came in, and he managed to hide it behind a bit of a terrain from the CM. With it, he blew up my standard contemptor. Fire Dragons waffled about mid-field, they had no transport and the closest vehicle was the Land Raider (with armored ceramite). Fire Prism had another go at the Contemptor-Mortis, passed Atomantic Shielding save. They cleaned up my remaining 3 terminators with some psycannon fire, had a go at the Land Raider with leftover psycannon shots, no real effect. The dreadknight made a go at the the CM with its heavy psycannon, but it didn't rend so no joy for him. He was actually close enough he could have assaulted the land raider if he had wanted, but he shot something else and lost the opportunity. They were really keen on trying to kill my CM so Richard's Crimson Hunter Exarch could fly around and get stuff done.

Funny, though, cause it was my Sicaran that killed it. I used its fast movement to clear the terrain and opened up with everything using snap shots. I missed with both lascannons, but after rerolls I got four sixes with the accelerator autocannon. All four hits penned. It proceeded to crash into the guardians, killing two or three of them. My volkites followed that up with shots on the Dreadknight, dropping it down to 3 wounds. I knocked the last couple off bolter fire from the squad of tacticals that was still moving away from what was left of the GK on the right flank and with HB/lascannon fire from the land raider. Killed the fire prism with the CM.

Game was basically won at this point. My forces were still largely intact, I'd killed the majority of their anti-vehicle (all they had left was some out of position psycannons, a squad of fire dragons, and the bright lance in the guardian squad). In turn 3, I threw everything I could at the farseer (he was closest model in the jetbike squad) and he passed every single invul and armor save he had. Except for my volkites which wiped out the fire dragons in one turn of shooting (after they had managed to glance a HP off my land raider) . I lost my CM on turn 4, but I also managed a fury of the legion attack at the jetbikes with my left flank tactical squad, since the jetbikes strayed within 24 inches of most of the squad. I got of 28 shots, and only managed to kill the farseer. But that was enough. I knocked off the jetbike guardians with the sicaran afterwards. I killed a few GK with snap shots from my Volkites after I repositioned them.

We called the game there. There was some moderate hope in turn 3 and 4 that they might be able to somehow kill my scoring units and score on their own objective with the jetbikes (the farseer had mind war, eldritch storm, and prescience, and was nailing my tacticals with eldritch storm). But at that point, it was just mop-up. I had completely eliminated the Eldar and the GK were down to an immobilized Razorback that had nothing in range of it, 2 Purifiers, 3 GK SS, and a Psyfleman Dreadnought. I still had my heavy weapons squad + master of signal, ~30 tacticals + apothecaries, land raider and sicaran. I had accumulated first blood, slay the warlord, and my right flank tactical squad had moved to a scoring position on my objective. I could get linebreaker (if not to their objective to score) with my second squad if I wanted to, unless I just killed everything they had first.

So, the take-away from this?

-Volkites performed well in a variety of roles, but I might need better heavy weapon options for taking down Wraithlords/Wraithknights/them big things wot have tough 8 and 3+ armor

-Standard Contemptor was mostly useless, aside from absorbing a few laser beams.

-I should not be allowed to take terminators because I cannot pass 2+ saves, especially when I overheat with 3 of 10 plasma shots.

-Apothecaries in tactical blobs are a must. The FNP saves drastically reduced my losses.

-Legion Vexilla was worth its points today.

-Sicarans are really good when they're not being focused down immediately.

-The anti-MC/anti-tank utility of the lascannon-armed Contemptor-Mortis was valuable today.

Pavel Araghast · January 2, 2014

Great report, thanks.

Do you think unwieldy special weapon worth it on SoH? We lose mercyless fighters. Maybe LC or maces would be better?

Moonstalker · January 3, 2014

Kind of a complicated answer to that. Basically, the first consideration is squad size. A 'small' squad of terminators counts as 10 models (via the bulky special rule) and isn't likely to outnumber a lot of squads. So, not a lot of chances there to even get extra attacks. A 10 man squad of terminators would count as 20 models, and you're much more likely to get Merciless Fighters attacks with the larger squad.

Second consideration is what you are expecting to have to fight. A five man squad of terminators is probably just going to be used to specifically counter other terminators, HQs, or MCs - something that is likely to have a 2+ save. In that case, the 5 extra attacks you get from merciless fighters (assuming you get them in the first place) are going to do basically nothing. If we're talking about Merciless power swords vs terminators, you're only going to force your opponent to take like one extra 2+ save after your to hit and to wound rolls. Chances are he'll pass it, and he probably passed most of his saves vs your power sword attacks when you hit him at initiative. It's much more useful to have a power ax that will pierce his save in that situation, even though you lose Merciless Fighters.

But if it's a ten man squad of terminators, they're possibly both meant for carving their way through both enemy troops and enemy terminators. In this case, Merciless Fighters is worth it. You want to keep some Unwieldy AP2 weapons in there for dealing with other squads of terminators, but if you have to charge into a 20 man tactical squad you can make really good use of some power swords (or LC, if you prefer). If you go for a half/half mix of AP3/AP2 weapons in your ten man squad, those AP3 weapons striking at initiative will put a big dent in the 20 man tactical squad and should make sure you outnumber them when Initiative Step 1 rolls around - where you get some more attacks, a few more kills, and then all your Unwieldy AP2 weapons strike.

For squad sergeants, it's completely worth it. You're only losing one attack from him having an Unwieldy weapon. An axe or fist with artificer armor will let him shrug off one or two sword hits in a challenge and hit back with crushing force.

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