1500 Luna Wolves - Now With Battle Reports

[Pavel Araghast]

Thanks, you are great at rules! Will reconsider my list.

How about something like that:

Sergeant with PF and Combi-Plasma

4 Cataphractii with Power Axes and Combi-Plasma

2 Cataphractii with PF and Reaper Autocannons

3 Cataphractii with double LCs

[Moonstalker]

I'm not a big fan of the double lightning claws.  To me, the extra attack it gives you isn't worth the difference in points.  I would rather have a lightning claw and another combiplasma for slightly fewer points.  You still get AP3 Shred, and in exchange for the +1 attack in melee you get the ability to gun down more guys before you get there.  It's kind of just my style, but I prefer to spread my upgrades out.  Losing one of your PF/Autocannon guys would be really painful, so I would field the autocannon on a guy with a power axe and the PF on a guy with a combiplasma.  I don't want to lose either of them, but if I do I'm not losing quite as many points in one go.  I can see the benefits to putting the PF and Autocannon on the same guy, though - it makes your other squad members more expendable, and lets you focus on protecting only a couple important/expensive models with your positioning.  Whichever way works best for you.

 

I might do that squad like this:

 

Sergeant with Chainfist/Combi-plasma

5 Cataphractii with LC/Combi-plasma

2 Cataphractii with PF/Combi-plasma

2 Cataphractii with Power Axe/Reaper Autocannon

 

5 models striking at initiative, 5 striking with unwieldy weapons, one guy with a chainfist in case of a land raider, spartan, or contemptor.  8 combi-plasmas is going to give you 16 plasma shots before a charge, so if you've got the drop on another squad of terminators you should be able to kill around 4 of them before your charge (assuming they've got a 4++ invul).  That plus the wounds from the autocannons should either take care of a five man squad outright or get you easy outnumbering for melee against a larger squad (where you'll score one more kill from the lightning claws at initiative, before finishing off the ~4 remaining terminators with fists and axes at initiative step 1).  Again, it's completely up to you whether you put the autocannons on guys with axes, fists, or claws.

[Moonstalker]

After mulling things over a bit, I think I may have settled on a list.

 

Centurion

-Master of Signal, Artificer Armor, Refractor Field, Power Sword

 

Contemptor-Mortis

-Twin TLLC

 

Contemptor-Mortis

-Twin Kheres

 

Apothecarion

-2 Apothecaries

 

Legion Tactical Squad

-20 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor, Bolter, and Power Fist

 

Legion Tactical Squad

-20 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor, Bolter, and Power Fist

 

Legion Heavy Support Squad

-5 Members, 5 Volkite Culverins

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

-Lascannon Sponsons

 

This comes out to 1505.  The only modifications from the list I played a few days ago are adding the refractor field and power sword to the Centurion, and swapping the Contemptor with DCCW/Meltagun/Kheres for a CM with dual Kheres.

 

Why these changes?

 

Well, I felt that the close combat Contemptor wasn't working out so well.  Maybe I just need to give it another chance.  Maybe not.  It's hard to say.  For the Centurion, I know that those upgrades on him make zero sense from a gameplay point of view - he's a ranged/buffing HQ, not a melee one.  However, to me, this is what makes him a Centurion.  As the leader of this force, he is both a warrior, at home in the brutal struggle of melee combat on the front lines, and a commander, coordinating both his men on the field (granting BS bonus as he gives firing orders) and assets off the field (calling in artillery fire/orbital strikes with his bombardment).  Fluff-wise, I think this makes him a consummately balanced commander, a kind of exemplar of what it means to be an Astartes.  The sword is also a classic sign of martial leadership, marking the officers from the common soldier.

 

I would like to keep everything in this WYSIWYG, but maybe I will end up having to cut that wargear and go back to the standard Contemptor.  I dunno.  If I do, I will still sculpt him with the sword, even if it just counts as a close combat weapon and not a power sword.  I could bring the standard Contemptor back and also switch the Volkite Culverins out for Missile Launchers.  This would give me some more firepower to use against Wraithknights/Wraithlords/any T8 3+ MCs the Tyranids pop up with, as well as some close combat ability, but I'd be sacrificing some of the 30k flavor and firepower that the Volkites bring.  On the other hand, I have 4 lascannons, 2 Kheres, and the Herakles autocannon for digging into those big threats.  Riptides and Dreadknights I can just bring down with a torrent of fire from the Volkites.

 

Some thoughts on alternate choices for the Kheres CM.

 

Destroyer Squad

+Rad Missiles will weaken T8 MCs enough that my volkites can take care of them

+Phosphex is unpleasant to stand in

-Reduces my AV13 wall to 2 vehicles - hardly much of a wall

 

Support Squad with Rhino

+Plasmaguns will deal well with terminators and MCs

-High value, low toughness

-Rhino is easy pickings, still down to 2 AV13 vehicles

 

Moritat

+Scout move, jump pack, and twin plasma pistols could turn him into a viable suicide unit

-Easily neutralized

-Not AV13 vehicle

 

WW Scorpius

+S8 AP3 barrage fire

+AV13

+Will combo well with a couple nuncio-voxii in tactical squads

+Points cheap

-Low mobility/fire on the move

 

Second Sicaran

+Strong, well-rounded battle tank

-$$$

 

And finally, to wrap up this lengthy post, I've have created 750, 1000, and 1250 point lists that can be fielded with these units.

 

Centurion

-Master of Signal, Artificer Armor, Power Sword

 

Legion Tactical Squad

-15 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor, Bolter, and Power Fist

 

Legion Tactical Squad

-15 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor, Bolter, and Power Fist

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

-Lascannon Sponsons

 

755 points

 

 

Centurion

-Master of Signal, Artificer Armor, Refractor Field, Power Sword

 

Contemptor-Mortis

-Twin TLLC

 

Legion Tactical Squad

-20 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor, Bolter, and Power Fist

 

Legion Tactical Squad

-15 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor, Bolter, and Power Fist

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

-Lascannon Sponsons

 

1000 points

 

 

Centurion

-Master of Signal, Artificer Armor, Refractor Field, Power Sword

 

Contemptor-Mortis

-Twin TLLC

 

Apothecarion

-2 Apothecaries

 

Legion Tactical Squad

-19 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor, Bolter, and Power Fist

 

Legion Tactical Squad

-14 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor, Bolter, and Power Fist

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

-Lascannon Sponsons

 

Legion Heavy Support Squad

-5 Members, 5 Volkite Culverins

 

1255 points

[Siebold]

I like how your centurion is able to provide additional fire in your 750 point list.

This is one rather neat low point list and I might steal the idea for my growing emperors children.

They do sell the champion and the master of signal together so that is a nice point.

Looking forward to read how your kheres contemptor fares.

[Sanct]

why not take a combat shield over the refractor? Functional the same but shoud trim the lists down to the right levels

[Moonstalker]

why not take a combat shield over the refractor? Functional the same but shoud trim the lists down to the right levels

 

I mostly just play with my friends, and 5 points over isn't a big deal for us.  I always try to be right on the dot, but it doesn't always happen.  I can see where it might become an issue when playing pickup games at the local gaming shop or at tournaments, and in that case swapping the refractor for a combat shield would be a good way to drop 5 points and get all the points levels evened out.  Personally, I just don't like the look of combat shields.  My Centurion stands proud and defiant, striding over the battlefield like the power-armored giant that he is.  He does not hide behind a shield like a coward.

 

He hides behind an energy field.  It's much more manly.

[Sanct]

What else did you add to the 1000 list to make the 1250?  I see 2 apoths, 2 less tacticals and....

 

If you're looking for low ap firepower have you consider twinlinked-plasma outriders? Comparable to the plasma TSS

[Moonstalker]

What else did you add to the 1000 list to make the 1250?  I see 2 apoths, 2 less tacticals and....

 

If you're looking for low ap firepower have you consider twinlinked-plasma outriders? Comparable to the plasma TSS

 

Oops, good catch.  The last bit to hit 1250 is the heavy support squad.  Then it's just the Kheres Contemptor and the remaining tacticals to hit 1500.

 

I dunno about the bikes, they're pretty expensive per-model.  4 bikes with TL plasmaguns is 220 points, a TSS squad with 4 plasmaguns and a rhino is 195.  Maybe it would work for someone, but I'm a bit averse to it.  Besides their points cost, I'm also not a big fan of bikes.  I find them quite silly.

[Siebold]

I think plasma is just a tad expensive in 30k.

It does prevent that your tasty terminators/primarchs get shot up that easily.

Maybe another Sicarian or a Medusa, even though I odn't know how much that'd fit into your army concept.

It might synergize well with your master of signal.

[Moonstalker]

So, after seeing the Sicaran auto-include topic in the Heresy forum, I started thinking about my list if it didn't have a Sicaran.  Don't get me wrong, I love the look of the tank, and it's the main battle tank I've been wanting for Marines since I've started playing 40k.  But it's also a late Crusade development, and this is an early Crusade army - pre-Ullanor Luna Wolves, Terra-born astartes in Mk 3 - or perhaps Mk 2 - plate.  Honestly, if I want to fit my own fluff, the Sicaran probably doesn't belong.  So, what might my army look like without a Sicaran?

 

Centurion

-Master of Signal, Artificer Armor, Refractor Field, Power Sword

120

 

Contemptor-Mortis

-Twin TLLC

185

 

Apothecarion

-2 Apothecaries

90

 

Legion Tactical Squad

-19 members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor, Power Fist, and Bolter

275

 

Legion Tactical Squad

-19 members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor, Power Fist, and Bolter

275

 

Legion Heavy Support Squad

-5 Members, 5 Volkite Culverins

185

 

Legion Predator Strike Armor Squadron

-3 Predators, Predator Cannons and Lascannon Sponsons on all

375

 

1505 points

 

On the face of it, I kinda like the change.  The unfortunate news is that this army now has a bit of trouble dealing with AV14.  8 lascannons for focusing down a Land Raider sounds nice, but you have to remember it used to be 4 lascannons, a twin-linked accelerator autocannon, and 2 Kheres assault cannons.  It is flat worse at dealing with AV14.  Comparing the Kheres armed CM + Sicaran vs the Predator squadron directly (there is only a difference of 20 points, made up for by dropping some tactical marines).

 

All Sicaran and Kheres CM weapons combined:
...vs AV14
2.428 glance+ (1.368 pen), .265 chance of explosion
...vs AV13
3.216 glance+ (2.429 pen), .479 chance of explosion

 

All Predator weapons combined:

...vs AV14

1.333 glance+ (.666 pen), .222 chance of explosion

...vs AV13

3.333 glance+ (1.333 pen), .444 chance of explosion

 

The AP2 of the lascannons does pull through and offer good possibilities for one shot kills, but the complete inneffectiveness of the standard autocannons vs AV14 really hurts when both the Kheres and the Herakles pattern cannons can rend.  I consider the performance vs AV13 to be a wash.  Yeah, the fewer pens will hurt, but that number of glances will kill most AV13 vehicles, and the extra AP on the lascannons keep the chance of inflicting explosions relatively high.

 

This direct damage output comparison aside, there are some other, less tangible tradeoffs.  The CM is slow and the Sicaran is fast, but both can put out their full firepower while moving 6 inches a turn.  The CM can get skyfire/interceptor if it remains stationary.  The CM has a 5++ invul vs shooting and a 6++ in melee, and can tie up a unit in melee if it has to.  They both have side armor of 12, but I think the advantage there is a little dubious - any proper anti-tank weapons are going to rip through AV12 or AV11 with almost equal ease.  They are both immune or near-immune to krak grenades.  They can fire independently of each other, and the Sicaran's main gun ignores jink saves.  One drawback, though, is the Contemptor's lack of range.  24 inches may not be enough in all situations.

 

The Predators, on the other hand, bring a whopping 9 hull points to the party.  50% more than the Sicaran/CM combo platter.  No single explodes result will deprive you of a necessary unit (like losing your Sicaran turn 1 to a lucky shot), but there is no wasted fire as any extra shots will get laid into the rest of the squadron.  The Predators can actually perform pretty well as anti-MC/anti-terminator units.  12 autocannon and 6 lascannon shots is pretty scary, even if we know it's not quite the same as 12 assault cannon, 6 accelerator cannon, and 2 lascannon shots.  As a bonus, the Master of Signal can boost the BS of the entire squadron of Predators.

 

Triple, identical Predators isn't the only thing that could be brought.  It could be double predators and then some Rapier Laser Destroyers (which would actually save points and would improve performance against AV14), or a Vindicator or a WW Scorpius.  One of the Predators can be split off to fill out the third heavy support choice, thus protecting them from the drawbacks of squadroning (unless you fill that third heavy support choice with a different vehicle).  If we are just comparing the Sicaran to the Predator Squadron, the Predator Squadron can put out anti-vehicle firepower about on par - and perhaps that is the fairer comparison, as the CM with Kheres Assault Cannons just might not be in a position to be employed against an enemy Land Raider.

 

Personally, I find myself favoring the idea of more treads on the ground and the redudancy of multiple Predators.  A wall of AV13 is something I've wanted to emphasize in this list, and through the revisions (largely with the removal of the Predator Executioners) that has fallen away.  Pushing towards high point levels, I think there's room for Machine Spirit on the Predators.  This would rectifiy their fire-on-the-move issues to a large extent, and would allow them to fire on multiple targets.  Just think of laying six lascannons into an enemy Land Raider while on the move, or sitting still and doing the same - while your 3 Predator Cannons engage three seperate Rhinos.  Pushing the entire squadron up to BS5 is also a pretty scary concept.  Using Prescience on the squadron is equally terrifying.  For my opponents, at least.

 

I think I'll be giving this Predator Squadron a go.  I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

[Moonstalker]

So, I did some more thinking (and more mathhammering) on the Predator idea.  I didn't feel like looking at the anti-vehicle alone was telling the whole story of the difference between the Sicaran/Kheres CM and the Predator Squadron, so I worked up some numbers on likely targets: T4 for marines, T6 for Riptides, Dreadknights, and Tyranid MCs, and T8 for Wraithknights/Wraithlords.  Please note the numbers for the Sicaran/CM do not include the Sicaran's hull heavy bolter.  It wouldn't make much difference either way.

 

Sicaran/CM combined vs T4
11.055 AP4 wounds
2.831 AP2 wounds
...vs T6
6.832 AP4 wounds
2.831 AP2 wounds
...vs T8
0.888 AP4 wounds
2.609 AP2 wounds

Predator Squadron vs T4
8 Autocannon Hits, 6.666 wounds
4 Lascannon Hits, 3.333 wounds
...vs T6
8 Autocannons Hits, 5.333 wounds
4 Lascannon Hits, 3.333 wounds
...vs T8
8 Autocannon Hits, 2.666 wounds
4 Lascannon Hits, 2.666 wounds

Here we can see the Predators bringing some additional strength and effectiveness over what the Sicaran/CM were bringing.  I've stated several times that I was concerned about dealing with MC's and Terminators, and I think the Predator squadron will help with that.  Even with rending, we can see that the Predators just flat out bring more AP2 to the party and the higher strength overall deals better with T8 MCs.  The Sicaran/Kheres CM combo does have a significant advantage in AP4 wounds vs T4, but it's not like I'm hurting for ways to kill T4 opponents - at least not ones with 3+ or worse saves.  Between my bolters and volkites, I'm feeling quite confident in that area, so the difference there doesn't overly concern me.

 

So now we should ask, how much AV14 do we expect to see at 1500 points, and how much firepower do we need for dealing with it?  Are 8 lascannons (2 on the CM and 6 on the Predators) sufficient for dealing with the occasional Land Raider, or perhaps pair of LRBTs?  Probably.  Again, most of my AV14 for these games has been my Sicaran, which by itself produces results like:

 

Sicaran with LC Sponsons vs AV 14
5.333 accelerator hits, .885 glance+ (.592 pen) .099 chance of explosion
1.333 lascannon hits, .444 glance+ (.222 pen), .074 chance of explosion
Combined: 1.328 glance+ (0.813 pen) .173 chance of explosion

 

Which, as you can see, is comparable to what you get out of a Predator squadron.  Assuming the Kheres-armed CM was otherwise occupied and couldn't join in the AV14 killing, the Predator Squadron is a very slight improvement.  I did like having the backup firepower, though.

 

Overall?  I'm still pretty torn.  I love the Sicaran, but the Predators fit my army's background a little better and bring some soothing redundancy/toughness.

[Siebold]

Beside your, as so often, nice number crunching the last part does seal the deal for me, I also like the idea of having more expendable parts in the unit.

So I'd say go for it.

I had similar problems when I wanted to include those awesome phoenix guard miniatures and realized that at "lower" point levels you just can't use most of the really shiny stuff efficiently.

Won't stop me from painting them and using one as my terminator sergeant with phoenix spear.

Maybe field 3 Sicarians as Predators if the love for the modell is that strong.

I hope you are made out of money though.

Maybe just field test (proxy) to see how it plays.

Sometimes it just feels better to play one unit , even though  math-hammer wise it is not that fitting.

I am not fielding centurions, as an example, they just look to strange.

[Moonstalker]

Nah, I had to turn down double Sicarans earlier in the thread since there isn't any way I can afford that.  If I stick with FW, then a Sicaran + Contemptor (and weapons) is 200 USD while triple Deimos Predators is about 250 USD.  However, I have two Predators kicking around already, and I could still reasonably use GW plastics instead.  Even buying all new plastic Predators and not trying to strip and rehab my aging Space Wolves Predators would only be 120 USD (assuming I get a 20% discount from one of a handful of online retailers).

[Siebold]

I totally forgot about the deimos pattern.

They do look pretty neat, it also might be possible to make that old pred look similar via plastic carton etc.

Who knows what kind of weapon patterns they scrounged up during the early crusades.

[Moonstalker]

Well, the Luna Wolves are once-more victorious.  I'm still here, waiting for Terry and Richard to finish up their 2v2 (GK + Blood Angels vs double Eldar), but my game is done.  I did a 1500+1500 vs 3k of tyranids, allied with Crimson Fists.  I used the triple predator variant of my list, and my ally brought something like:

 

Pedro Kantor

5 Sternguard Vets

5 Vanguard Vets

3x Centurions with hurricane bolters and grav cannons+amps

30 tactical marines (might have been 40?  he was using full squads, I don't remember if he had 3 or 4 hiding in the forests on his flank)

 

And the tyranid player brought:

Swarmlord

2 Hive Guard

Flyrant

2 Alpha Warriors

3 Warriors

2 Venomthropes

30 Termagants

20 Hormagaunts

30 Gargoyles

1 Tervigon

2 Exocrines

2 Carnifexes

3 Zoanthropes

1 Hive Crone (or maybe it was a harpy?)

2 Biovores

 

Tyranid player didn't play too well, and he got a little screwed by deployment (Hammer and Anvil).  Not very good to get against two gunline marine armies.  He was joining his warriors to his venomthropes to make them majority toughness 5, and he had one venomthrope to cover all his gribblies which were really bunched up.  Kantor used his orbital bombardment to snipe the venomthrope/alpha warrior (direct hit, wounded both double tough, failed cover saves).  With them gone, I used my master of signal's bombardment combined with my volkites to rip giant holes of in Zach's formation of gaunts/gants.  My predators killed one exocrine on turn 1 with their lascannons.  Contemptor Mortis grounded the hive crone right in front of the centurions that it was setting up to vector strike next turn, and it died horribly.  The tyranids player threw several large blast templates at my marine blobs that were sitting on objectives, but failed to barrage snipe my apothecaries or kill more than 5 marines overall (though he did kill more than half of the crimson fists before he conceded on turn 3).  Volkites worked well against gribblies and carnifexes.  I also got one Fury of the Legion attack in for 56 bolt shots against the gargoyles.

 

I wouldn't say it was a very harsh evaluation of my list's abilities, as the list and player I was facing were not at their respective bests.  However, it gave me a chance to try this against something more non-MEQ, and I liked how it went.  In a straight 1500 point 1v1, I think I could've won on my own.  But if he had brought any mawlocs or gotten a more favorable deployment, it would've been a much harder fight.  I am not sure I can win vs eldar, tau, or necron air force.  I just don't think the legion list has what it takes to tackle the top of the meta, but I am filled with more confidence that I could make a good fight of it.

 

My recent thoughts on expansion towards 2k are just adding artificer armor to the apothecaries (barrage sniping and precision shots remain a threat), machine spirit to the predators, and a Macharius Vanquisher with Space Marine Crew and Heavy Bolter Sponsons.

[Moonstalker]

Scroll down to the bolded text if you want to skip the battle report and just read my thoughts on how my list performed.

 

Another game this weekend, against Terry and Richard again. 2k vs 1k+1k, Luna Wolves vs Grey Knights and Eldar. I fielded my most recent 1500 list (the triple predators) + a Knight Paladin (which I was borrowing from Terry), and I rounded out the last few points with one additional marine in each tac squad, artificer armor for the apothecaries, and machine spirit for the predators.

 

Terry had something like:

 

Coteaz (Prescience and Perfect Timing)

 

Ordo Malleus Inq with ML1 (prescience) and a hellrifle

 

2x Henchman squads with 3x jokaero, 1x plasmacannon servitor, 5x crusaders with storm shield/power axe

 

A purifier squad in a razorback. Razorback had a TL HB with Psybolt ammo, the purifiers had one psycannon, psybolt, and probably some other toys.

 

Dreadknight with personal TP and heavy incinerator.

 

 

Richard had:

 

Jetbike Farseer (Guide, Fortune, Mind War)

 

3 strong jetbike squad, 1 shuriken cannon

 

14 strong guardian squad with 1 brightlance platform

 

Wave Serpent with TL bright lance

 

6 strong warp spider squad, with one upgraded to a exarch with spinneret rifle

 

Fire Prism

 

Wraith Knight with twin heavy wraithcannon

 

 

Dawn of War, Big Guns Never Tire, 5 objectives, I won the roll to go first/deploy first and chose to go second. They set up with two monkey squads in the middle, NDK and Fire Prism all the way in the right corner, guardians in the left corner, wraith knight to the left of middle, Razorback between the WK and Guardians, Wave Serpent in the center with the warp spiders behind it. Purifiers were hiding behind one monkey squad, and the jetbike squad was hiding somewhere in the back left, as well. I deployed my Predators centrally, in a line, along my table edge 4 inches apart. Contemptor-Mortis anchored my right, with a tac squad between the CM and Predators. Knight Paladin was deployed all the way in my left corner so I could get out of range of one of the monkey squads and keep just about everything in front armor arc. To the left of my center, I had my second tac squad, with my heavy support squad/master of signal hiding behind it.

 

Turn one, they knocked 2 HP off one predator and shook it, 1 HP off another with a glance, killed a couple marines in one squad, and generally managed to wiff on their attempts at killing the Knight Paladin. The NDK shunted all the way up the extreme right flank and was threatening my contemptor-mortis and the tac squad I had covering that flank. I split fire on the Predators with machine spirit, sunk some autocannon shots into the wave serpent, some lascannon shots into the wraith knight, and one lascannon shot into the NDK (it was out of arc and couldn't fire at the WK). The CM shot the NDK as well. This put the WK at 2 wounds adn the NDK down to 1. The Wave Serpent also took a glance (poor rolling with the 8 autocannon shots I put into it). I tried dumping bolter rounds into the NDK, but I rolled poorly again. I tried to finish off the WK with the Knight Paladin, but I scattered waaaaay off with one template, and only waaay off with the second ( clipped the back of the base and knocked the WK down to one wound). So, I'd put both of their big MC's down to 1 and failed to kill etiher of them.

 

I've talked a lot of :cuss about heavy stubbers, but in that turn I turned the heavy stubbers on the closer monkey squad, and I killed almost half of it. I knocked out two crusaders, the PC servitor, and one monkey. I rolled really well, and Terry rolled his saves really poorly. I still think that they are statistically irrelevant weapons. I used the MoS' bombardment on turn one to try and turn some monkies into red goo, but I only rolled one shot for it and it scattered off by a pretty large distance. Can't be lucky every time.

 

Turn 2's notable points, Richard knocked 3 hull points off the Knight Titan with a pen/explodes from the bright lance in the guardian squad. Terry charged the squad of tac marines on my right flank, I got 3 wounds in with krak grenades, he saved them, and then I wiffed both of the to-hits for the sergeant's powerfist. He splatted two guys. They failed to get any more damage done to my tanks, but took out a chunk of my tactical squad (Richard had decided the best use of his fire prism was using the S5 Ap3 large blast shot on tac marines). On my turn, I killed the WK knocked two HP off the Fire Prism with my Contemptor-Mortis and shook it, knocked the Wave Serpent down to 1 hull point, and chewed up half of the second monkey squad/killed the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor/reduced the purifier squad to one guy using the Knight Paladin's battlecannon. My left side tactical squad rapid fired into the nearby jetbike squad - Richard rolled some pretty abysmal saves and lost everything. I had moved my heavy support squad to a position with better sight lines (but that was more exposed) and tried to take down the wave serpent with snapshots, but failed.

 

The end of turn 2 was really painful. Despite getting even more of the squad into melee range of the NDK, I rolled even fewer wounds with the grenades, and Terry still saved them all. And then he hit with all three of his attacks. And wounded with all three of them. And then my sergeant only got one wound onto the NDK, and he passed his invul. So, I lost combat by 3, and I rolled a 9 for my Ld test. And then another 9 after using my Vexilla. The squad broke, rolled higher than the NDK on the sweeping advance, and the fell back 7 inches. Hit the table edge and wiped out. 330 points gone because my sergeant couldn't get his :cuss together and punch someone.

 

Terry was understandably excited by his success, and fired on the closest Predator in turn 3. He actually hit the right and center ones with the heavy incinerator template, and got one pen out of the deal. It only shook the closest predator, though. They had more shooting, most of it was inneffective, aside from finally reducing my second tac squad below half and killing two of my heavy support guys. Terry failed to make his charge roll to get in against the Predators, which was pretty good news for me.

 

In my turn, I used PotMS to dedicate one lascannon to the NDK from the shaken Predator it had just tried to light on fire, while the other two predators poured 4 lascannon shots into the Fire Prism and 8 autocannon shots into the wave serpent. The Fire Prism exploded, the Wave Serpent wrecked, and the NDK died. The Knight Paladin dumped its battlecannon and heavy stubber shots onto the Guardian Squad, killed the bright lance platform and half the squad. They were now down to about 4 monkeys, 6 crusaders, a Razorback, Coteaz, 1 Purifier, and 8 guardians. I had 3 Heavy Support Marines, Master of Signal, a little less than half a tac squad, 3 Predators (all missing hull points but otherwise functional), a Contemptor-Mortis and a Knight Paladin.

 

We called the game there, since they had to pack up and get back to their place, but I think I almost had the game in the bag. If they ended up with some really effective shooting phases with the monkies and their lascannons, maybe succeeded in bogging the Knight titan down in melee with the guardians for a turn or two, they could have maybe won on objectives. I only had two on my side of the board, though I was scoring on both of them. They had three, but were only scoring on two. I had first blood, and could probably get linebreaker easily. I had killed three heavy support units, though, which I think is the real kicker.

 

What's My Take-away?

First is that the Machine Spirit for the predators was definitely worth it. I didn't really end up maneuvering for any/many shots, but being able to split my autocannons to shoot at transports while hitting bigger things with the lascannons was a big help. I also took a couple glances in that game, and the Machine Spirit kept at least some of those guns working. It did slow the game down a little bit, choosing targets and positioning all three predators is like firing with a clumsy superheavy with 9 different guns.

 

Second was my worst fears were realized, in that I actually ended up losing a squad due to failed morale. It was just poor rolling that kept the vexilla from saving my bacon, and poor rolling on my attacks that led to me needing to make the morale check in the first place. Take. Vexillas.

 

Third is my opinion on the Knight titans. I like them, they're balanced, they look good. I'm not sure if it's the right model for my army or not. I want a cool centerpiece superheavy/Lord of War for my 2k point list, which might be a Knight Paladin. Or a Macharius Vanquisher. The Knight Paladin seems like it is the stronger choice, but I also really like tanks. The two notable advantages for the Macharius are that its main gun is twin linked (so I wouldn't have nearly as bad problems with the scatter dice as I had this game) and that it has an anti-armor shot (where the Knight Paladin really needs to get into melee to D-chainsword things in the face). That's still up in the air, but it can remain up in the air for a while. I need to buy and assemble my 1500 point army first. Which should start soon, I'm gonna order at least a Predator and a Contemptor by the end of the week-ish.

 

Fourth, I am inclined to keep the powerfists on my sergeants instead of going for the power axe/meltabomb combo. I've been waffling back and forth on this lately, turning it over mentally whiled I considered which I really wanted to go with. Though it didn't succeed today, I feel like the extra strength from the PF is needed. Having a bolter instead of a bolt pistol for adding to fury of the legion attacks is also a plus. I can probably squeeze meltabombs onto the sergeants at 2k if I really want to.

[Sevatar]

Regarding the Knight, why not use a Typhon instead. It is more durable than the Vanquisher, I think 20 points cheaper, too. It only lacks Armourbane. However, the model does look very cool.

 

It seems las/autocannon predators work well, but I'm pondering over whether to use standard, autocannon in my 3000 points list. They just done seem efficient enough to be honest.

 

Good battle report.

[Erren]

Thanks for the battle report, Kitwulfen.  I second the Typhon for consideration.  Since GW's additional Knight transfer sheet went out of stock (and I'm not being told was a limited production), I've been putting off my Knight plans until FW comes out with more HH-era Knight information.  But the Typhon is comparable in points and makes a mess of footslogging infantry in 30k.  Really, it makes a mess of everything.

[Moonstalker]

The Typhon probably does bring what I need, but I think it's kinda ugly.  Not that ugly is always bad.  It's ugly in a kind of threatening, bulldog way.  It could be the Sturmtiger to the Panzer 4 of my Predators.  With LC Sponsons and armored ceramite, it comes in at 410 points, which is near the upper end of what I can spend while still having enough for machine spirit on the Predators.  But I still prefer the sleeker look of the Macharius Vanquisher, it just looks well proportioned and deadly in my eyes.  It's probably the worst value for points out of the three, though.

 

I had really wanted to bring a Knight painted in admech colors (or Legio Mortis colors) to add a little variety to the army, but I think that having a legion vehicle as the superheavy of choice might provide the cooler visual.  Having that kind of fire support included in the army just underlines how much bigger and better equipped legions were compared to the chapters that followed.

 

I like the Heresy-era Predators with LC sponsons, the heavy 4 autocannons they get are effective enough that I can actually buy the logic of using them as a main tank gun.  If you've got the heavy support slots/cash to spare, Sicarans are probably more efficient.

[Sanct]

What did your volkite HSS do during the game?  I thought it would've been the best weapon to tear apart the guardians and henchmen

 

AFAIK Knights are part of their owns House and not part of any Legio so you can paint your Knights in any colour scheme you want (unless the scheme is later listed as part of a loyalist house)

[Moonstalker]

They didn't do a whole lot.  I had positioned them behind terrain to protect them turn 1, because it would be 3 VPs if my opponents decided to focus that squad down.  1 for it being a heavy support in big guns never tire, 1 for slay the warlord, and 1 for first blood.  My turn 1, they fired at the same group of monkeys that my MoS tried to drop his barrage on, but only 3 had LoS, and there was a wall of Crusaders that they had trouble chewing through.  Turn 2 I moved them out into the open and hoped for sixes by snapshooting at the Wave Serpent that had 1 HP left (my MoS gave the tac squad next to them +1 BS to shoot at the jetbikes).  Turn 3, I think I fired them at the monkeys, but I had lost 2 of them so only had 3 to shoot with.  I never had LoS to the Guardians with them, too much terrain in the way.

 

Regarding house colors for the Knight Titan, I know I can paint it just about any color, using any made-up house I want (or fudge it as a lesser Legio Mortis war machine).  However, I was thinking that I want to make it something that belongs to the Luna Wolves to showcase the kind of power that a legion has at its disposal, rather than a house or titan legio that is fighting beside them.  Houses and titan legios still fight beside space marines, but it was during the Crusade/Heresy where they had the resources to field their own superheavy tanks with regularity.

[Moonstalker]

Alright guys, it's been fun, but it's about time for me to abandon this topic.  I'll make a new one, in the WIP or HH forum itself or something - my experimenting and listbuilding is done and I have moved into the "selling organs to buy resin" phase.  The first 585 points worth should be here in the next few weeks-ish, or however long the shipping takes.  I ordered the CM, Apothecaries, one Predator, and the Heavy Support squad.  So, my next thread will probably be more about documenting progress and taking pics of models than lists and theory.

 

The one change to my 1500 point list is that I am going to have to drop the refractor field from my Master of Signal, as it looks like he's going up in price.  If you want to fit without going 5 over, the Master of Signal can have 20 points of wargear assuming his base cost goes up from 85 to 95 points.  My expansion towards 2k is still up in the air.  It will probably mostly be wargear for existing models + a superheavy, either a Knight Paladin, Typhon, or Macharius Vanquisher.  The Typhon is kinda growing on me, my comparison of it to a Sturmtiger appeals to my inner treadhead.  A big blast, an awesome ram attack, and an extra set of lascannons doesn't hurt, either.  Neither does AV14 and immunity to melta.  So, that's 410 points for that, 75 for machine spirit, 5 from being 5 over at 1500... leaves 10 points, which could be augury scanners on my apothecaries, or the refractor field back on my master of signal.  Of course, if I suddenly become filthy rich/discover that I have a third kidney to sell, I could just buy multiple Lords of War and field whichever seems best on a given day.

 

Assuming Knight Paladins are still scoring units in 30k, then that is definitely the best choice if you're looking at my thread and trying to do something similar to my army.  Built in invul, Str D melee, blast weapon, good price (points and $), it basically will do everything that this army needs as it expands to 2k.  Second choice would be a land raider with terminators inside, because they bring another vehicle, more lascannons, combiplasma, melee, and scoring.  Third choice is being a derp and taking a Typhon because you like tanks.

[depthcharge12]

Idk if you will see this in moving from this thread to the next, but if you are moving to 2000 points (a good decision since 1500 is too small IMHO and all the lists will essentially be cookie cutter) I have another idea for you.

 

 

I've been running this through my head for theoryhammer and noticed that you liked the plasma squad of death.

 

Proteus Land Raider

+Exploratory Augury Web

 

7 man support squad

+7 plasma guns

 

485 points total

 

 

The idea is to scout the proteus forward 12" into cover or good firing position. On your turn move 6" drop the squad 6" and have them rapid fire 14 shots of plasma into a squad of your choice while the land raider snipes tanks and causes -1 to enemy reserves such as flyers.

 

If you feel like super competitive, there's even room for one more in the tank like a MoS for +1 BS plasma or Libby with prescience if you don't want friends :D

 

 

That way you get some AV14 that can move a plasma scoring squad of death where it needs to go.

[Sevatar]

Palladins are even better. They now have S6, 3 shot  large blast weapon. Not as anti tank, but better marine killers.

[Moonstalker]

Idk if you will see this in moving from this thread to the next, but if you are moving to 2000 points (a good decision since 1500 is too small IMHO and all the lists will essentially be cookie cutter) I have another idea for you.

I've been running this through my head for theoryhammer and noticed that you liked the plasma squad of death.

Proteus Land Raider

+Exploratory Augury Web

7 man support squad

+7 plasma guns

485 points total

The idea is to scout the proteus forward 12" into cover or good firing position. On your turn move 6" drop the squad 6" and have them rapid fire 14 shots of plasma into a squad of your choice while the land raider snipes tanks and causes -1 to enemy reserves such as flyers.

If you feel like super competitive, there's even room for one more in the tank like a MoS for +1 BS plasma or Libby with prescience if you don't want friends

That way you get some AV14 that can move a plasma scoring squad of death where it needs to go.

Well, I haven't abandoned the thread entirely, I still keep my nose in the Army List forum. I just thought that this thread had run its course, I'd pontificated enough and settled on my army list enough that I was ready to start buying models.

I like the idea of a squad of terminators with combiplasma more - that plasma support squad does offer a scoring unit and some great firepower, but it'll still be dead the turn after it steps out of that land raider. The terminators are tougher and would bring a good melee element. Whatever they don't finish with their double tap of plasma fire, they can handle in melee with powerfists or axes. It's not just the load of plasma shooting I like, it's how it can cripple a foe before the terminators get into melee. If I have to fight another squad of 5 terminators with mine, I'd rather try and do it in melee after I've knocked a couple of them off with plasma fire. And if I'm fighting a larger squad of terminators (say a 10 man squad from a PotL list), then getting the plasma fire in could cut them down to maybe 6-7 guys, and then with the charge bonus I actually have the advantage in the first turn of combat (15 attacks vs 12-14).

Of course, the downside is that the plasma fire could either kill all the guys that are in charge range, or just flat make the squad break and run away, where it can then regroup the next turn and shoot the terminators while they're swinging in the wind.