Dark Angel Devastators Questions

[Retaliation]

It's become apparent to me that I've got some list building problems. I do stellar against other marine or stronger per model armies (including riptides oddly enough). When I start facing things like vehicle spam, hordes, or vehicles I can't take out in melee I start struggling. I feel like devastators would probably be the answer to my problems considering how easy it is to make them immune to turkeys. So I approach you fellow members of the inner circle, for advice on equiping say 2 squads?

 

Currently my thoughts are one anti infantry and light vehicle squad while the other fills up on lascannons for anti flyer and heavy vehicle. The obligatory lvl 2 librarian with PFG need not be mentioned.

 

Squad 1

 

5x marines

3x heavy bolters

1x ML

 

Xenos and guard armies are pretty popular in my area. I added a Whirlwind to my army after my first face smashing from tau. Whirlwinds are still rhinos however, and aren't all that great when the cowards hide in metal... well raiders and wave serpents aren't exactly box shaped are they? So I want something that can kill both these transports (well not serpents...) and their passengers pretty well. It would also be nice to be able to out range fire warriors as I accidentally discovered during that first game with my only heavy weapon (plasma cannon).

 

My issue here though is that I can't find anywhere where heavy bolters are regarded as anything except meh. Would I be better off with going full out missile spam (losing effectiveness against 4+ and 5+ armor)?

 

Squad 2

10 marines

4x lascannons

 

With psychic twin-linking, I think I agree that this is some of the best available AA for marines. Cheaper than flakk, and can handle say a wall of Necron AV13 or lighter vehicles when combat squaded. I'm pretty much sold on them already. Sold on them to the point where head canon wise I want to say my chapter views the pattern name of Godhammer to be a literal sign that they are weapons favored by the Emperor only to be brought out when absolutely necessary.

 

 

[[TA]Typher]

Flak missiles with attached Lib for prescience and a Aegis wall with a las-turrent = dead fliers.

[librisrouge]

As an IG player who faces DA semi-regularly I can tell you that quad-las is scary...very scary. You should deeply consider taking it. The other squad though, isn't so much. The problem is the Heavy Bolter's lack of versatility. It is basically only good at hurting infantry. 99% of vehicles don't care. Consider swapping for pure missile launchers. They fulfill a wide range of roles and four Twin-Linked (via Prescience) frag missiles are almost more effective against hordes.

[SvenONE]

Yeah 4x lascannon is pretty solid overall, if they remain alive they can seriously hamper vehicles every turn.  For the most part, they should be all you need, but some extra support in the form of some melta guns or melta bombs (or CMLs) will help also.

 

It's really important that you deploy them carefully, never put them in a position that they'll be unsupported (your flanks) and always, if possible, in cover of some kind.

 

In regards to fliers, I think flakk is too expensive for the lists I run (ravenwing-centric), I never feel like I can afford those extra few points.  I try and outmaneuver fliers and hope for the best.  

[NCSUWolf]

Ive recently been running, with a mixed bag of success, 2 squads of Devs, both 1x Las, 3x ML. Don't forget the Signum from the sgt (I invariably put the +1BS on my Las) but the set-up basically can shoot at anything. Sure it feels a bit awkward firing a Las at a horde when you're tossing lower Str templates, but remember also that you can order the saves your opponents take so the templates can try to whittle down any sort of bubble wrapping and let the Str 9 AP 2 vape' something further in.

 

Vs Flyers they work out just fine as 3x Krakk and a Las shot into the air, even without prescience, has brought down a flyer or three for me in the past.

 

Though I will echo what's been said above about always watch your flanks and try to get them in cover when deploying (even think about positioning them such that they do what they need to: create long range support fire for your advancing units).

 

Edit: As to the Heavy bolter squad, the issue is the range and lack of overall versatility (as you've already noted in the OP). I would say, if you're going to consider them, think about putting the unit in a Drop Pod and landing inside their 36" range to create a focal point for your bikes. The snap shots are better off then the other configs for that first volley and can still do some damage.

[pueriexdeus]

My two Dev Sqds are:

 

10 w/ 2x HB, 2x PC

 

10 w/ 2xLC, 2x ML

 

The HB/PC config has been the game changer for me many times against Orks, CSM, and Eldar. Real good against Jet Bikes, Defcoptas, and Truks.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Me personally I like 4 PC's 4 HB's and either 4 Lascannons or 4 Flakk Missles. Lots of points but depending on who I'm going against massively effective. Heavy Bolters aren't the greatest thing ever no. However against orks or guard if you can get them out of the truks or tanks (and eventually they will) the Heavy Bolters tear it up for me. I had the same issue as you as many people don't seem to like the Heavy Bolter. However in my Meta it works great. If I'm taking on any marines the 4 PC's are always there. You already said a PFG Libby and with 2 Powers (assuming Prescience) it makes all of the squads deadly. Strength 5 Shots aren't bad at all and considering that you would get 12 of which about 10 would actually hit with rerolls. You ignore most ork and imp guard armor for infantry. Yes a Tac Squad will do similar however often you have your Tac's on an objective and not always in the best position to really hurt something I've found. A five man Dev Squad (more bodies added at the end if I have the points) seems to do it well for me. The flakk missles are expensive but they are great all around weapons I've found. Once again take with a grain of salt and I'd say test it. I love the 4 Lascannons and they work quite well but sometimes they just don't cut it for me as I want to shoot them at flyers one turn and then a 30 man Imp Guard squad the next. The guard have low  enough points to actually specialize units. DA do not so you've got to get the most for what you've got I've found.

 

My 2 cents but def try using Heavy Bolter and Plasma Cannons. I don't like mix and match on the squad weapons but as you can see it works for a lot of people.

 

DoC

[FerociousBeast]

My two Dev Sqds are:

 

10 w/ 2x HB, 2x PC

 

10 w/ 2xLC, 2x ML

 

The HB/PC config has been the game changer for me many times against Orks, CSM, and Eldar. Real good against Jet Bikes, Defcoptas, and Truks.

Yes, but is it a game changer due to the PC or HB? I'm willing to bet that while the HBs do contribute some kills, your heavy lifters are the PCs.

[SvenONE]

I should add, a friend of mine put together a rather silly list of 3 Dev squads each with MLs, LC, PCs supported by full scout sniper squads with heavy bolters against our Tau friend.  He did support them with 2 AMB Neph's though.  It was pretty funny seeing all the templates down and running all three did a great job having to split fire.  Not practical in any sense but a funny game to watch.

 

He held on long while because the sheer volume of precision shots and rending shots were taking out a lot of his drones, but ultimately lost (it was relic and some pathfinders just walked up and grabbed it at the end).

[johnyocum]

Personally, I like the set-up I have for my 3rd company, Dark Angels:

 

Squad 1: 3 PC, 1 ML (w/ Flakk)

Squad 2: 2 PC, 1 LC, 1 ML (w/ Flakk)

 

Gives me plenty of hurt-everything options, and the flakk missles in case I do have to shift after that pesky flyer.  Plus, both squads are full, so I can combat squad the ML away from the PCs if I know there's a flyer out there supporting a horde.

 

My Guardians Of The Covenant are right now 4 PCs, but it'll be 2 PCs, 2 MLs (w/ Flakk) in each squad once I can pick up some more robed bodies.

 

[Major_Gilbear]

Looking at Devastator squads with HB and ML, I can't help but wonder how folks reckon they stack up against a squadron of Landspeeder Typhoons (HB+ML config)? They are obviously different, yes, but in a fire support role against the OP's targets they might be worth considering...? The Devastators can then be left with ML, Lascannons and PC in a "heavier" role that we know they do well in quite easily.

[Dark_Master]

I am in the middle of the painting a full Dev squad with 4 x Plasma Cannon.

 

Going to team up with a Prescience Libby and use them see how they fair versus some hordes/ CSM

 

DM

[Cactus]

I remember in 3rd edition the 2x heavy bolter 2x plasma cannon setup was very effective (at killing my eldar). If I'm remembering right a ten man squad could sit in a rhino and half of them (ie all the heavy weapons) could fire out of the hatch. It was also 40 points cheaper than 4x plasma cannons. Now the points differential is only 10 points and the rules for blast weapons are more forgiving it's harder to make a case for the heavy bolters. They'll do better than plasma cannons against light or medium infantry that are spread out to avoid blasts, but I can't think of many things I'd fire a heavy bolter at that I wouldn't be happy to use a plasma cannon on instead.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Dark Master,

 

I found vs. CSM my PC's are murderous. I wiped out a squad of PA a turn and then Devastated (see what I did there?) a six man Deepstriking Termi squad. Needles to say I got a warm and fuzzy feeling and my friend looks at me and just cringes. It must be the anti heretic feeling I suppose. However I suppose it would be the same for a big portion of any PA marines ( Really only play against Nids, Crons and CSM so my meta is very skewed). Good placement and a Prescience Libby do it for me. I also found the third or Fourth PC is really needed. Occasionally the first two shots would it and it was the overall stacking of wounds that really did it for me in whipping them out.

 

DoC

[Lysere]

I should add, a friend of mine put together a rather silly list of 3 Dev squads each with MLs, LC, PCs supported by full scout sniper squads with heavy bolters against our Tau friend.  He did support them with 2 AMB Neph's though.  It was pretty funny seeing all the templates down and running all three did a great job having to split fire.  Not practical in any sense but a funny game to watch.

 

He held on long while because the sheer volume of precision shots and rending shots were taking out a lot of his drones, but ultimately lost (it was relic and some pathfinders just walked up and grabbed it at the end).

 

Gonna point out that 'Pathfinders' can't score unless it's scouring. If you meant Fire Warriors then that was a legal move but otherwise it wasn't.

 

While I play a different Dex I saw the back and forth about heavy weapons and Figured I'd add my two cents.

 

Heavy Bolters have always done well for me just being a middle of the road weapon. They aren't super awesome against any one target, but like our bolter perform well in a number of different situations. Now some armies have better bonuses that they can give them (Like Imperial Fists) but that doesn't make them super awesome either. The big thing to think about though is your Plasma Cannons can hit just as many models, yeah you can't move and shoot but so what. Also if your running divination and giving the squad re-rolls to hit you can re-roll you get's hot roll for the plasma cannons. So not only are you just as accurate as the heavy bolters, the risk of using plasma cannons drops to a 1/36 chance of rolling double 1's. This alone is enough reason to consider dropping the heavy bolters in favor of 4 plasma cannons.

[Retaliation]

Looking at Devastator squads with HB and ML, I can't help but wonder how folks reckon they stack up against a squadron of Landspeeder Typhoons (HB+ML config)? They are obviously different, yes, but in a fire support role against the OP's targets they might be worth considering...? The Devastators can then be left with ML, Lascannons and PC in a "heavier" role that we know they do well in quite easily.

 

Horribly probably. My thing is that I need to buy 2 boxes of devastators for the additional lascannons, which means tons of heavy weapons that would love to have a home. I'd use the new tac squad box to fill out the ranks and give me a 4th missile launcher. 

 

@Everyone else

Flakk is a bit to expensive for my taste. Especially since nobody has any problems using my TLLC mortis dread where I play. PCs... well I'm kind of ambivalent about people spreading out to avoid getting hit, but there's a point in forcing people to do something. There's also something very DA about a squad fully loaded out with plasma. 

 

At full 2" dispersion, about how many models would I expect to be able to hit (1-2 right)?

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Yeah Retaliation I found I was hitting on average 2 - 3. I got really lucky and got four at one point. That's why I said 4 PC's. 2 wounds per template gives ya 8 wounds and on a Tac squad is useless tac squad in my opinion. No armor saves and  no cover saves for my opponent led to very dead squad.

[Dark_Master]

Dark Master,

 

I found vs. CSM my PC's are murderous. I wiped out a squad of PA a turn and then Devastated (see what I did there?) a six man Deepstriking Termi squad.

Hehe,

 

Money not wasted on eBay then.

 

Cheers

 

DM

[Major_Gilbear]

@ Retaliation:

Well, I assume that you have a number of tactical squads with either missile launchers (from the Tac sets / AOBR set), and/or plasma cannons (from the DV set). I'll assume for the sake of argument (maybe wrongly!) that you have two of each.

With a box of Devastators added, that gives you a total of:

4 PC

3 ML

2 LC

2 HB

1 MM

That would give you nine "heavy-hitting" Devastator weapons to make up a Dev squad or two from, and still leaves you with HB, MM and another weapon for your Tac squads... Scoping out ebay or a bits store (or a bits trade on a friendly forum), or even FW (here, here, and here), and you can easily grab another ML/PC/LC or two for you Tac sqads as well if you want them.

The issue with HBs is that they really only threaten one type of target, and that mixed Dev squads which include HBs tend to lose power and flexibility faster than those made up of just ML/LC/PC. If you are forced to fire at an infantry squad, the big three guns will all do some damage. If you are forced to fire at a tank, or a monstruous creature, the big three will outshine the HB easiliy. That makes the HB a relatively niche weapon unless you have a lot of them and can keep them mobile. Otherwise, you might stick one in an Tac squad as a weapon of opportunity.

I guess that what I'm trying to get at is that I'm not sure it's worth making a Dev squad from two different kits for the sake of using up heavy weapons unless you actually want them. And if the Dev squads they build are pretty meh, then it seems like a waste of time and effort to me unless you happen to just like the models as well/instead.

With regard to the Typhoons, they have the advantages of fast movement to move-and-shoot unlike Devs, or shoot-n-scoot in pursuit of fresh targets. What that means is that it leavs the better weapons free for the Devs, and your Tacs can pick up the odd weapons as you need them to.

Anyway, I realise it might not be quite what you want to hear, but I promise I am trying to be helpful!

[SvenONE]

 

I should add, a friend of mine put together a rather silly list of 3 Dev squads each with MLs, LC, PCs supported by full scout sniper squads with heavy bolters against our Tau friend.  He did support them with 2 AMB Neph's though.  It was pretty funny seeing all the templates down and running all three did a great job having to split fire.  Not practical in any sense but a funny game to watch.

 

He held on long while because the sheer volume of precision shots and rending shots were taking out a lot of his drones, but ultimately lost (it was relic and some pathfinders just walked up and grabbed it at the end).

 

Gonna point out that 'Pathfinders' can't score unless it's scouring. If you meant Fire Warriors then that was a legal move but otherwise it wasn't.

 

While I play a different Dex I saw the back and forth about heavy weapons and Figured I'd add my two cents.

 

Heavy Bolters have always done well for me just being a middle of the road weapon. They aren't super awesome against any one target, but like our bolter perform well in a number of different situations. Now some armies have better bonuses that they can give them (Like Imperial Fists) but that doesn't make them super awesome either. The big thing to think about though is your Plasma Cannons can hit just as many models, yeah you can't move and shoot but so what. Also if your running divination and giving the squad re-rolls to hit you can re-roll you get's hot roll for the plasma cannons. So not only are you just as accurate as the heavy bolters, the risk of using plasma cannons drops to a 1/36 chance of rolling double 1's. This alone is enough reason to consider dropping the heavy bolters in favor of 4 plasma cannons.

 

 

Ah yep meant Fire Warriors! Always confuse them just because they come from the same box.

[Retaliation]

@ Retaliation:

Well, I assume that you have a number of tactical squads with either missile launchers (from the Tac sets / AOBR set), and/or plasma cannons (from the DV set). I'll assume for the sake of argument (maybe wrongly!) that you have two of each.

With a box of Devastators added, that gives you a total of:

4 PC

3 ML

2 LC

2 HB

1 MM

That would give you nine "heavy-hitting" Devastator weapons to make up a Dev squad or two from, and still leaves you with HB, MM and another weapon for your Tac squads... Scoping out ebay or a bits store (or a bits trade on a friendly forum), or even FW (here, here, and here), and you can easily grab another ML/PC/LC or two for you Tac sqads as well if you want them.

The issue with HBs is that they really only threaten one type of target, and that mixed Dev squads which include HBs tend to lose power and flexibility faster than those made up of just ML/LC/PC. If you are forced to fire at an infantry squad, the big three guns will all do some damage. If you are forced to fire at a tank, or a monstruous creature, the big three will outshine the HB easiliy. That makes the HB a relatively niche weapon unless you have a lot of them and can keep them mobile. Otherwise, you might stick one in an Tac squad as a weapon of opportunity.

I guess that what I'm trying to get at is that I'm not sure it's worth making a Dev squad from two different kits for the sake of using up heavy weapons unless you actually want them. And if the Dev squads they build are pretty meh, then it seems like a waste of time and effort to me unless you happen to just like the models as well/instead.

With regard to the Typhoons, they have the advantages of fast movement to move-and-shoot unlike Devs, or shoot-n-scoot in pursuit of fresh targets. What that means is that it leavs the better weapons free for the Devs, and your Tacs can pick up the odd weapons as you need them to.

Anyway, I realise it might not be quite what you want to hear, but I promise I am trying to be helpful!

Only 1 plasma cannon and missile launcher! For the price I pay for 2 lascannons though (~5 dollars each), that would mean the rest of a box of devastators is worth only ~21 dollars (when you include say 10% off). I feel like I get more for the money when I just buy the box itself. After all I fully intend on using that second squad.

Speaking of which I'm liking the 4x PC for anti infantry needs from all your advice. I figure when against cowards who hide in boxes I just blow it up with lascannons (combat squads if need be) and then drop 4 templates on their heads when they come out pinned.

EDIT: In fact I'm thinking of making the librarian in the anti infantry squad a terminator so I can stick a relentless combi boltgun on him for when I start using the banners.

I should add, a friend of mine put together a rather silly list of 3 Dev squads each with MLs, LC, PCs supported by full scout sniper squads with heavy bolters against our Tau friend. He did support them with 2 AMB Neph's though. It was pretty funny seeing all the templates down and running all three did a great job having to split fire. Not practical in any sense but a funny game to watch.

He held on long while because the sheer volume of precision shots and rending shots were taking out a lot of his drones, but ultimately lost (it was relic and some pathfinders just walked up and grabbed it at the end).

Gonna point out that 'Pathfinders' can't score unless it's scouring. If you meant Fire Warriors then that was a legal move but otherwise it wasn't.

While I play a different Dex I saw the back and forth about heavy weapons and Figured I'd add my two cents.

Heavy Bolters have always done well for me just being a middle of the road weapon. They aren't super awesome against any one target, but like our bolter perform well in a number of different situations. Now some armies have better bonuses that they can give them (Like Imperial Fists) but that doesn't make them super awesome either. The big thing to think about though is your Plasma Cannons can hit just as many models, yeah you can't move and shoot but so what. Also if your running divination and giving the squad re-rolls to hit you can re-roll you get's hot roll for the plasma cannons. So not only are you just as accurate as the heavy bolters, the risk of using plasma cannons drops to a 1/36 chance of rolling double 1's. This alone is enough reason to consider dropping the heavy bolters in favor of 4 plasma cannons.

Ah yep meant Fire Warriors! Always confuse them just because they come from the same box.

Hopefully not during the game! Otherwise The Lion would personally wake up just to punch your face, and you do not want him punching your face.

[KGatch113]

Are you locked into DA only???? Take Imperial Fist allies. Take a unit of Legion of the Damned with plasma gun and cannon. ( if you have the points, throw in a power fist on the sarge.) Why? 3++ save, somewhat accurate deepstrike, and plasma shots that negate cover. Power fist on the sarge makes for a decent challenge killer cause of the 3++ save.

 

Then take a cheap unit of scouts for troops, a libby for HQ , and then you can take several different options for the heavy bolters. YOu can take their Devs with HB, rerolling 1's, or you can take their attack bikes for the same benefit, plus more wounds, plus T5. If you take the attack bikes you can then take a Thunderfire cannon.

 

But, even better than the attack bikes are Typhoon speeders, cause then you get krak missiles. Not as good as las, but overall versatile.

[Retaliation]

Ah but the issue there is I can't get 2/4 salvo bolters from legion of the damned like I can a tactical squad now can I? Everything else (except scouts with the LSS) is inferior to something I can get out of our dex. They don't get divination or powerfields and our bikes/speeders are much more effective overall. Rerolling 1s is pointless since I was planning on twinlinking the HBs anyway. 

[KGatch113]

Ah but the issue there is I can't get 2/4 salvo bolters from legion of the damned like I can a tactical squad now can I? Everything else (except scouts with the LSS) is inferior to something I can get out of our dex. They don't get divination or powerfields and our bikes/speeders are much more effective overall. Rerolling 1s is pointless since I was planning on twinlinking the HBs anyway. 

 

Just throwing out ideas. The legion's invuln is better than a PFG, and isn't dependant on 1 character, and like I said, they ignore cover. With a plasma cannon. 

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Remember Retaliation. Stick with DA Darkside...............not only do we have cookies we have heretics!

 

 

Wait that didn't come out right.