Space Wolves losing their edge?

[stormoffires]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EsqkfieG5-E/UmmTEu_7kFI/AAAAAAAAal4/PYoV4l1AtDY/s1600/fob-2013-meta.jpg

 

Dont know about yall but i have found it harder and harder to combat these new Codexs with my wolves. some people still cant handle the alpha strike i hit them with in pods.

 

I was wondering what do yall do for competitive army lists/units or how do you combat some of these newer armies? 

[Severoth]

Taking allies has been beneficial for my wolves, Taking ole Tigurius and some scouts with either a Storm Talon or aegis line has been awesome (putting Tigurius with the long fangs basically getting prescience on them and invisible because of Tigurius bad ass re rolls of what psychic power he wants)  

[MaveriK]

Your army is only as strong as your general. There are so many variables to consider with that cart..... ie. such as how experienced were these wolf players.

[Sohail187]

Your army is only as strong as your general. There are so many variables to consider with that cart..... ie. such as how experienced were these wolf players.

As much as i really do agree with you Maverik, the element of strong codex comes into play. I made a post earlier today about a tournament i went to this weekend. I saw players who normally not do so well with his/hers own codex come out on top against strong players, because they allied in the new toys of 2013. 

[Rift Blade]

Gotta agree with Maverik. There is so much not taken into consideration with things right now. How many Wolf players are currently using another army while they wait for the 6 Ed dex, the quality of the players, how many Wolf players & such. Don't get me wrong, the new toys pose a challenge but we are still capable of putting up a good fight. Every time I play one of the new dexs, things get a little easier. Do the new dex's have an edge? Sure I'll give you that. But it's also about learning the new toys & new tactics that come with them & how to counter them. My 2 cents anyways.

[Warhead01]

Yes, Yes, Lets all panicky over some stats collected by BoLS... 

The codex isn't the problem it is this " The meta" I keep reading about. 

Of course the Eldar came out on top. And of course the orks came in last. 

If their had been more Space wolf players their the stats would have also changed. 

[Bulweih]

+1

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Seriously... Just look at the top armies in relation to how recent the codex was put out... It's not rocket science.

Anyone who says wolves are getting soft deserves a stein to the face. An empty one, mind you.

 

End of Line

[Valerian]

What does that chart even show? That 23% of the armies entered into the tournament were Eldar, while only 2% were Space Wolves? If that's true, then, what is the "so what?"

[SamaNagol]

People aren't picking Space Wolves. It's certainly easier to win a tournament with Tau, Tau/Eldar, Eldar or Screamer Council Daemons.

 

But Space Wolves have some excellent tools. I feel if people put some time into using Space Marines to fill in some of the gaps in the Wolves book, they would see some good results.

 

The fact a StormRaven and a StormTalon are in different FoC slots helps. Fling in a nice Bike Captain with 2+ and a Storm Shield with 2 cheap units of 5 Bikes and you have a very powerful addition to a Wolf backbone to deal with the boots on the ground and psychic defence/offence.

[stormoffires]

People aren't picking Space Wolves. It's certainly easier to win a tournament with Tau, Tau/Eldar, Eldar or Screamer Council Daemons.

 

But Space Wolves have some excellent tools. I feel if people put some time into using Space Marines to fill in some of the gaps in the Wolves book, they would see some good results.

 

The fact a StormRaven and a StormTalon are in different FoC slots helps. Fling in a nice Bike Captain with 2+ and a Storm Shield with 2 cheap units of 5 Bikes and you have a very powerful addition to a Wolf backbone to deal with the boots on the ground and psychic defence/offence.

 

I dont think its a matter of people picking Space wolves for turnys as much as winning without them. Those stats are based on players who won at their local level and moved on. 

 

I personally am not saying wolves are soft, i love my wolves and they are number one for me. Go drop pods! I also put up one of the toughest fights in my meta do to such a strong alpha strike. I only started this topic to talk about wolves at a tournament level. 

 

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/Feast-of-Blades-Invitational/2/leaderboard

 

see if that link helps you understand some of the stats better. Mind you this is bracketed so dont look at the 6-0 or 4-6 stats but how they place and preformed within their stats. I know ther eare so many things that could come into play and blah blah blah. but from a tournament perspective, wolves in 5th dominated the scene, now seem to have fallen down the wagon trail as all the tournament players moved onto other armies, and only true wolve players keep on. 

[MeatGrinder]

Sw havent lost anything, we're just behind on the times. We lack the new toys that fit the 6th ed meta that SM and tau got with their new dexs. We've dropped from the top pick army to one of the lower tiers. Taking SW doesnt provide as many advantages over taking one of the newer lists. We're just slipping into limbo waiting for the new codex.

[Vor]

My Space Wolves still dominate. Not so much perhaps as my Tau do now, but they still utterly destroy most lists I face. Unbeaten in 6th, even verse the new Eldar and Marines. My SW lists are radically different to tournament lists though.

[Vlk]

 

People aren't picking Space Wolves. It's certainly easier to win a tournament with Tau, Tau/Eldar, Eldar or Screamer Council Daemons.

 

But Space Wolves have some excellent tools. I feel if people put some time into using Space Marines to fill in some of the gaps in the Wolves book, they would see some good results.

 

The fact a StormRaven and a StormTalon are in different FoC slots helps. Fling in a nice Bike Captain with 2+ and a Storm Shield with 2 cheap units of 5 Bikes and you have a very powerful addition to a Wolf backbone to deal with the boots on the ground and psychic defence/offence.

 

I dont think its a matter of people picking Space wolves for turnys as much as winning without them. Those stats are based on players who won at their local level and moved on. 

 

I personally am not saying wolves are soft, i love my wolves and they are number one for me. Go drop pods! I also put up one of the toughest fights in my meta do to such a strong alpha strike. I only started this topic to talk about wolves at a tournament level. 

 

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/Feast-of-Blades-Invitational/2/leaderboard

 

see if that link helps you understand some of the stats better. Mind you this is bracketed so dont look at the 6-0 or 4-6 stats but how they place and preformed within their stats. I know ther eare so many things that could come into play and blah blah blah. but from a tournament perspective, wolves in 5th dominated the scene, now seem to have fallen down the wagon trail as all the tournament players moved onto other armies, and only true wolve players keep on. 

 

This is really interesting and quite useful, thanks! I´m actually glad that the Wolves are not played as much as before; after the new codex came out, everyone and their mothers seemed to play it and it kind of drove me mad. I like playing a hipster army. A side benefit of that is that people are already starting to forget about the tricks we have and how to counter them. I´ve been noticing that trend for quite some time.

 

Anyway, here are some numbers from that stormoffires´ leaderboard:

 

- from 100 players, the SW were played 1x as a primary detachment (w/o allies) and twice as allies (once with a Guard army, once with Space Marines)

- there were 17 pure Eldar armies and 12 more armies with Eldar as a primary detachment (7x with Tau allies, 5x with DE allies) => 29 primarily Eldar armies

- 6 armies had Eldar as allies (4x Tau, 2x DE) => total of 35 armies out of 100 had Eldar in them

 

- 12 armies had Tau as the primary detachment (5 of them were pure Tau, 4 with Eldar allies, 1 with SM allies, 2 with Tau allies)

- 10 armies (excluding the Tau/Tau alliances) had Tau as allies (7x Eldar, 2x GKs, 1x SM) => total of 22 armies out of 100 had Tau in them

 

- there were 9 Necron armies, 8 of them pure, 1 with Ork allies => total of 9 armies out of 100 had Necrons in them

- 15 Chaos Daemons armies, 10 of them pure, 5 with CSM allies (in 5 more CSM armies, daemons were allies) => total of 20 armies out of 100 had Daemons in them

- there were 6 CSM-primary armies, 5 of them with Daemon allies (5 armies had CSM as allies)

- 5 SM primary detachments (2x pure, 1x with Tau, 1x with Sm, 1x with SW) and 4 armies with SM allies (DAs, Tau, SM, GKs)

 

 

And then there were - as I like to call them - "hipster armies":

- 1x Dark Angels with SM allies, 1x DAs as allies for a Guard army

- 3x Dark Eldar as a primary detachment (2x with Eldar allies), 5x DEs as allies to Eldar armies

- 4x Grey Knights primary detachments

- 3x Imperial Guard primary detachments (1x pure, 1x SW allies, 1x DA allies)

- 1x Sisters of Battle

- 1x Orks primary detachment (+ 1x Ork allies)

- 4x Tyranids

[Thunderhawk3015]

Ok, so what I'm seeing here is that in a tournament setting people are going for the new shiny armies that have *insert internet OP build here* or they are an "old" army with allies from the newest shiny codex.  Hate to say it but all those players really care about in the end is winning.  They don't play an army, they use the codex until the next one comes out and build the most broken list they can.  In addition, most tournaments have very terrain light boards when looking in the BRB the game is supposed to have a TON of terrain.  Playing on a board with the terrain amounts that are recommended means that even "old" armies or assault based armies can do well because there is cover and LOS blocking terrain. 

 

Seriously... Just look at the top armies in relation to how recent the codex was put out... It's not rocket science.

Anyone who says wolves are getting soft deserves a stein to to face. An empty one, mind you.

 

End of Line

I'm going to borrow this as IMO it is  probably the best response to the argument that wolves are "losing their edge". 

 

Wolves will never lose their edge because its the player that makes an army not the army that makes the player.

[Guest Drekkan]

Playing on a board with the terrain amounts that are recommended means that even "old" armies or assault based armies can do well because there is cover and LOS blocking terrain. 

 

 Which turn do you reach rapid fire range then ?

 

I'm genuisly intersted, because  by doing so (avoiding fire lanes) my models end up being stuck in moving through cover ie : snake eyes..

[dragon950]

It's all about the toys in the codex, look at how much DA were played.  They are still a newer release and they were right above SW.

[Russ Brother 92]

Aye tbh this has been done to death since the release of 6th and even more so with the 6th Ed codices, at the end of the day if you're going to a tourney (from my experience) many to most will be WAAC people, so the newest codex with the 'baddest' toys will be in ascendancy, however I've played each of the 6th codices and both won & lost against them, mostly it's down to luck and playing the units well - so what if we're not a brand new dex - did you feel the same and complain about it when running around 4th & 5th Ed complaining before the current dex came out? I'm pretty sure you got on with it and kicked ass. but most of all gents - it's a game!

[pcheck]

This is ridiculous. I placed first in a tournament just this weekend with my wolves. The only armies I went up against were from new codices. (Tau, eldar, CSM). I don't see how we could we can be losing our edge. Grey Hunters are still 15pts per model and a full missile long fang squad is 140 right? Until thst changes I don't see our codex struggling.

[stormoffires]

This is ridiculous. I placed first in a tournament just this weekend with my wolves. The only armies I went up against were from new codices. (Tau, eldar, CSM). I don't see how we could we can be losing our edge. Grey Hunters are still 15pts per model and a full missile long fang squad is 140 right? Until thst changes I don't see our codex struggling.

pack them in drop pods and hello first alpha strike! *caugh* Its also not ridiculous, wolves can easly win there local level tournaments because they are not the ones normally going up against these flavor of the month lists. I have to say my wolves lists that i have won local turnys at does struggle a bit against the Eldar and tau turny based armies. Even with Pods and alpha striking, Im glad to see less playing wolves makes mine seem cooler! haha 

 

Also cant just say this army vs this army is better because it really does come down to how they are played, your dice, and if the Russ is with us! I do look forward to a new codex, but hope its not the flavor of the month when it hits >_>

[Castellan Michael]

IMO if all you do is tourney play your missing out on what is best in the game. Hanging out with your friends playing a game that you all enjoy. That includes modelling and painting too. I play a tourney every once in a while, this always reminds me how much I do not like playing those kinda of people. They usually are experts on the newest recon, and play armies that are rated highest tourney win rate. They love to argue about frivolous rules that are usually obvious to all but themselves. Come to the table with a half-painted army just to meet the minimum requirements, and usually are not credible regarding WYSIWYG. This is just my opinion, so any trolls are not gonna get a reply.

 

Lots of games have my name in first place or a win, has it become harder in 6th? Yes, but that is OK for me. We have a new dex on the way, and allies do help to create some balance in the game. When my sons and I play a game in the garage things have changed. My easy wins against my youngest sons Tau are not as easy any more. Truthfully I am glad for it, he stuck it out and is do some wins. My eldest sons Eldar now are just that much better too. When we have a bunch of friends over to play, no one looks at my wolves as a push over, first off they know my tactical ability, and our mid-range and close combat strengths. As players we of the Vlka Fenryka just need to know our new toys and rules will come and our fellow players know that their new edge will only last so long.

 

Cut as many threads as you can and remember to be steadfast in tactical wolfyness. It still scares them and like them new-army-every-tournament players will all be playing wolves next year. LOL

[Thunderhawk3015]

 

Playing on a board with the terrain amounts that are recommended means that even "old" armies or assault based armies can do well because there is cover and LOS blocking terrain.

Which turn do you reach rapid fire range then ?

I'm genuisly intersted, because by doing so (avoiding fire lanes) my models end up being stuck in moving through cover ie : snake eyes..

Entirely depends on the mission played, the deployment type, where the objectives are placed, who my opponent is, how their army is configured etc. I also still make use of rhinos and razorbacks to maneuver across the board to help minimize the chances of getting stuck. Turn 1 usually sees cruising speed followed by flat out in the shooting phase so I can if necessary be in rapid fire range by turn 2 but again, it all boils down to mission/deployment/opponent.

[Urauloth]

I do look forward to a new codex, but hope its not the flavor of the month when it hits >_>

 

If it isn't, it will be because it's a bad codex, so be careful what you wish for imo

[Guest Drekkan]

 

 

Playing on a board with the terrain amounts that are recommended means that even "old" armies or assault based armies can do well because there is cover and LOS blocking terrain.

 

Which turn do you reach rapid fire range then ?

 

I'm genuisly intersted, because by doing so (avoiding fire lanes) my models end up being stuck in moving through cover ie : snake eyes..

 

 

 

Entirely depends on the mission played, the deployment type, where the objectives are placed, who my opponent is, how their army is configured etc. I also still make use of rhinos and razorbacks to maneuver across the board to help minimize the chances of getting stuck. Turn 1 usually sees cruising speed followed by flat out in the shooting phase so I can if necessary be in rapid fire range by turn 2 but again, it all boils down to mission/deployment/opponent.

 

I'll try the good old rhino rush for fun sake next time.

 

It seem like an easy first blood tho.

 

At least, their's no need to buy new shiny stuff.

 

Am I the only one bored to death being stuck with the same gimmick since 3rd ed ?

[Thunderhawk3015]

Play the mission and first blood won't be an issue most of the time.