[HH1.0] Salamanders Tactics

[Blacksails]

Well, we have a thread for just about all the other legions with rules, so I figured the sons of Vulkan deserved one too.

 

What are your thoughts on our wargear options, special units and RoW?

 

Oddly enough, its a bit of a challenge to work in a unit of Pyroclasts if you run any sort of mech list, as the Land Raider plus squad with a few upgrades puts the unit at 400pts.

 

I'm also digging the Firedrakes.  A unit of those in a Spartan or Phobos may be expensive, but their durability is nearly outmatched.  Throw in a kitted out Praetor with the Mantle and you've got one beaty unit.  An expensive unit, but at least they score too.

 

Its also interesting to note that we can master craft weapons on characters for 5pts, which is cheaper than the MC option the Praetor has for the other legions.

 

So, thoughts?  Ideas?  Lists?  General banter?

[depthcharge12]

Well, we have a thread for just about all the other legions with rules, so I figured the sons of Vulkan deserved one too.

 

What are your thoughts on our wargear options, special units and RoW?

 

Oddly enough, its a bit of a challenge to work in a unit of Pyroclasts if you run any sort of mech list, as the Land Raider plus squad with a few upgrades puts the unit at 400pts.

 

I'm also digging the Firedrakes.  A unit of those in a Spartan or Phobos may be expensive, but their durability is nearly outmatched.  Throw in a kitted out Praetor with the Mantle and you've got one beaty unit.  An expensive unit, but at least they score too.

 

Its also interesting to note that we can master craft weapons on characters for 5pts, which is cheaper than the MC option the Praetor has for the other legions.

 

So, thoughts?  Ideas?  Lists?  General banter?

 

 

Master craft the beejesus out of plasma pistols.

 

 

Oh and master craft any of your choice of heavy weapon in a heavy weapon squad.

 

 

Aren't independent characters technically characters? So you could get MC for cheap?

 

 

In your terminator command squad....a master crafted plasma blaster????? bwahahahahahahaha

[Blacksails]

Yeah, and in Pyroclast squads, the sergeant has a Pyroclast flame projector like the rest of the squad, so MC that.

 

Also, I think IC are technically characters, and so would get cheap MC.  MC Paragon Blade, or Thunder Hammer, or Plasma Pistol, or Inferno Pistol.  Tasty.

 

Oh, and Salamander Praetors get EW for 20pts, and can boost their invuln to 3++, like Iron Hands.

 

Vulkan himself is also a beast, sitting between Ferrus and Mortarion as the most durable Primarch, and certainly no slouch in CC.

[depthcharge12]

Its too bad that you guys can't take moritats or you could have dual master crafted plasma pistols

[GhostMalone]

That there ^ that's why

[Blacksails]

I...that...buh.

 

Well, its a good thing we can't.  I mean, wow.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah i'm not usually the one to WAAC....

 

 

maybe we should nuke that post....its too dangerous in the wrong hands....

 

 

That moritat would absolutely destroy any unit no ifs and or buts.  If you could take one, then two would reliably kill a primarch for half the cost

[GhostMalone]

Stop it!!!!!!!! Temptation!

[farding]

I have been working on some Salamanders lists. Loving the praetor can take a beating and beat back. I am stepping away from the paragon blade and giving him a MC TH and the shield with iron halo so 3++ and the cloak for EW. Causing ID on most praetors after they could only take couple wounds off my guy in a challenge is a nice feeling. and i feel really represents the take a beating give a better beating feel they have in book 2 (until they get really beaten-bad) So i will be using him as my lord protector.

 

 

The Character dread is very nice if you are only taking him as your warlord so has to be your only HQ but give no Slay the warlord and +5 FnP which is cool and he kicks face on almost any terminator squad in combat i think.

 

 

I struggle with the Rights of war but that’s because it stops all deep striking units and i find that the salamanders really lend themselves to drop pods but i suppose the right is to get them to play the same way as in the books but mass flamer and melta running or rhinos across the board normally does not get far. Also sad that the pyro clasts cant take rhinos/drop pods but i see why because that would be amazing!

Still don’t really like the rights of war for them. the 5++ for vehicles is good but its on certain weapons so all the missiles we see will still kill easy most tanks. Also only one consul other than champions what do people make of this? surely it should be chaplains given the promethan cult things?

 

 

The Chaplain char i find a mystery he is too many points to not have a very cool rules but his weapon is good and he is EW but the making a dreadnought unit a HQ surely this should have been troops?

 

 

Back to tactics now, I still feel that they are best in drop pods and i will be using this with a pair of assault rams for those amazing firedrakes and plenty of supporting flamer/melta units backed up by as many dreads with flamestorms as i can get my hands on. just waiting on the new drop pod again.

 

 

Question for anyone the Deathstorm drop pods do not have the drop pod assault rule would you say this is an over sight or makes them more fair? i wanted to take one to round off the number of pods to an odd number but i don’t think it would work because they don’t have the rule.

Edited October 29, 2013 by farding

[fission]

The salamanders are in the spirit of the Legion.

 

For the Rite of War rules : you can take as many champion as you want, and only one other type of Consul but it,s written nowhere that you can't take Praetor or Special characters.

Also I think this Rite of war would be great in a defence scenario. Otherwise the salamanders are too slow not to take vehicules.

 

I love the Firedrake and I will join them a consul medicae ...

 

The Pyroclast are fun but I'd loved to see them against Orks...

[Blacksails]

@Farding

 

I'm also a fan of the MC TH Praetor personally, but that's also for aesthetic purposes.  For about 185pts I believe, you get a 2+/3++, MC TH, and EW.  Throw another 15pts on there for an inferno pistol and you have a good shot to crack open a transport too.

 

My biggest problem with the dread HQ is that he isn't a Master of the Legion, so I'd have to take Praetor to get any of the RoW I'd normally like to run, which then gets costly, but if I do that then the dread is no longer my warlord.  Granted, he's about as close to invulnerable as a vehicle can get, and no slouch in combat/shooting.  I'll probably end up buying him when they release the model, as I'm sure it'll look even better than Bray'arth Ashmantle.

 

Our unique RoW doesn't really bother me, except for the single consul restriction.  I personally dislike drop pods, so I have zero inclination to deepstrike anything anyways.  Really, the true advantage of the RoW is the MC melta everything, Pyroclasts as troops, and Move through cover.  The 5++ on vehicles against heat based weapons is a nice addition, but not something to go crazy about, as lascannons, missiles and autocannon will still eat through rhinos.  Now, does Move through cover apply to vehicles?  Or just walkers and infantry?

 

Yeah, our special chaplain is a strange one.  An HQ dreadnought talon, really?  I can't ever see that as being overly useful.  Still scratching my head.

 

I can see how drop pods would work well with our play style, but I personally will never take them.  I'll probably end up taking a Spartan for my Firedrakes and Praetor/Primarch.  Or just run them on foot with a few extra sprinkled in and run screen for other foot elements.

 

I unfortunately don't know how to help on the deathstorm question.

 

@Fission

I thought about bringing a Primus Medicae in with the Firedrakes, but for the cost, I'd rather have a ML2 Librarian, or just go balls out and splurge on the third level.  Grab divination and watch the re-rolls fly.

 

What points level do you all feel safe bringing in Vulkan without sacrificing too much else in the list?  I'm thinking no less than 2500pts, as him plus Firedrakes in a Spartan is 1100 with appropriate upgrades.  Maybe safer at 3000pts so you can fit in more support elements.

 

Anyone planning a mech list?  All foot?  Using a different RoW?

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah i'm not usually the one to WAAC....

 

 

maybe we should nuke that post....its too dangerous in the wrong hands....

 

 

That moritat would absolutely destroy any unit no ifs and or buts.  If you could take one, then two would reliably kill a primarch for half the cost

You could also give a Destroyer squad a MC rad launcher.......

 

And who says FW is all about OPing?

[Galron]

grr technical issues

 

HQ Dread

Praetor in Cata

Firedrakes in a Spartan

 

Pyroclasts x10 in the 200 point LR(I never can remember which P-name is which)

2x 10 Tacs in rhinos

 

Vets x10 with 2 ML and flakk sitting on the home objective if there is one

 

Fire Raptor with reapers

2 Sicarians with lasconnon sponsons

 

Lots of armor hopefully overwhelming my opponent



Edited October 29, 2013 by Galron

[farding]

@Blacksails

 

Yea i also have him with a hamme because well "its also a hammer."

 

 

Yea untill we get the pyroclast models i am unlikely to use them in lists sadly in which time i am sure many things will change for me.

 

 

Do you think we would get a differnt Dreadmodel i thought that since Dracos and Ashmantle have the same wargear and very simmilar rules and the fact it mentions the Iron dragon for dracos which is the name of the dreadnought that ashmantle is infered in surely this would already be the model for him? purhaps doing a differnt should guard given the current one shows how bryath fell.

 

 

I would be using vulkan in 2500 lists in a C ram so he can jump out again. (in my mind anyway)

 

 

I have tried a list with a total of 8 dreadnoughts which was fun to play but because they all had like heavy flamers and melta weapons had to go there first. the two techmarines with full servoguys helped to get them there. which was a very enjoyable game going against a mass WE army.

 

 

Also tried the double spartan with a rhino and the rite of war armoured spear head good fun to try and ram everything off the board, Watching 20 marines run away off the board because you ran over one is very joyful.

Edited October 29, 2013 by farding

[fission]

Dracos ans Brayarth have the same Dreadnought Chassis so I don't think they will make a new miniature.

 

"All units in a detachment using the rite of War gain the Move Through Cover special rule " . Its not written " All the Legiones Astartes (Salamanders)" so I suppose the vehicles gains this rule too .

So as you read the rule "move through cover" the vehicles will automatically succed the test for the dangerous ground ...pretty powerful...but remember the sallies wont have deep strike.

 

For me , I will use Vulkan in a game of minimum 3000 points. Because I feel its not fluffy to use primarchs at a lesser point game

 

For the use of a librarian I use only the fire discipline because of the fluff ( Yeah I play sometime too much fluff )

[depthcharge12]

 

Yeah i'm not usually the one to WAAC....

 

 

maybe we should nuke that post....its too dangerous in the wrong hands....

 

 

That moritat would absolutely destroy any unit no ifs and or buts.  If you could take one, then two would reliably kill a primarch for half the cost

You could also give a Destroyer squad a MC rad launcher.......

 

And who says FW is all about OPing?

 

 

Its only characters, but at least FW prevented this from happening by taking out the moritat and destroyer options for them.

 

 

 

"And who says FW is all about OPing?"

 

 

You know who says it? Those b s.

 

 

Who are "Those b s?"

 

You know...those b s.

 

 

:P ahh south park in 30k

[Blacksails]

@Galron

I was thinking of a similar list to yours.  That's what, 2500-3000pts I believe?  I like the sicarans because of the model, but I can't help but shake that they could be a touch better in terms of durability.  I guess they'll shine more when we see 30k Xenos.  I'm just a little confused at your vets; they can't score unless you take a different RoW, so I don't know what they'd be doing sitting on a home objective.

 

@Farding

Not only do I prefer the look of the hammer on models over a simple blade, I would enjoy the higher strength and consussive, which would negate the Paragon Blade's advantage in a protracted dual.  Not to mention S8 ID's a non-Salamander Praetor.

 

Pyroclasts as troops are nice, though I think they shine a little more on foot, basically becoming an all in one Tactical Support Squad to run along side your 20-man blocks of Tactical Squads.  The models will be a make or break though.

 

Can Vulkan ride in a C-ram?  Mostly out of curiousity, as it does say it can only transport power armour, artificer armour, and terminator armour.  Then add in the fact that Vulkan is very bulky.  I'm not sure though, I probably wouldn't care either way, but I'll also be running him out of a Spartan anyways.  Though I do agree that 2500 is a good starting point to think about bringing Vulkan in to the mix.

 

Eight dreads would be fun; half and half Mortis pattern and vanilla.  Though just those alone are what, 1400-1800pts depending on wargear?  Crazy.

 

@Fission

Yeah, I agree with your assessment on the RoW with MtC.  I've just never seen a vehicle/non-walker with it before, but I guess it'd pass all Dangerous Terrain tests.  Certainly gives them that steady movement feel.

 

I'd field Vulkan in games no less than 2500pts, but I'd certainly feel more comfortable from a list building perspective to field him at 3000pts, as him plus Firedrakes and Spartan would be a full third of 3000pts. 

 

A Pyro Libby is obviously fluffier, but I can't help but shake that Divination is just such a good discipline to have.

 

@Depthcharge12

Well its a good thing they thought about that!  Though I don't know if it was a pure fluff decision or actually thought about the rules.  We can all be thankful the combination doesn't exist though.

 

And on the topiv of Bray'arth, I guess I was just hoping they'd do a more contemptor-ish design, though all the fluff does indicate they're the same dreadnought.

 

A man can dream.

[Kol Saresk]

It might have been like what we're doing: "Oh Destroyers will clash with the overarching theme."

 

"Hey, remember when we gave the Salamanders MC-ing weapons on every character?"

 

"Yeah....."

 

"Well it turns out you could have done this if we hadn't restricted these units."

 

"Dear Cthulthu! Imagine the monsters, terror and Chaos that would have made!"

[depthcharge12]

It might have been like what we're doing: "Oh Destroyers will clash with the overarching theme."

 

"Hey, remember when we gave the Salamanders MC-ing weapons on every character?"

 

"Yeah....."

 

"Well it turns out you could have done this if we hadn't restricted these units."

 

"Dear Cthulthu! Imagine the monsters, terror and Chaos that would have made!"

 

 

I think the first part is actually how it went down - it was unintentional and just fluffy.

 

 

But thank the merciful lord that that had a benefical side effect...or else everyone on the interwebz would be at my door with a pitchfork and/or torch.

 

 

 

But still...master crafted plasma blaster for the win.

[Galron]

Crap, you are right, forgot they weren't scoring heheh Hmmm maybe a recon squad then along with a mortis contemptor I keep forgetting to put in. But yeah, clocks in right around 2500 points.

[Blacksails]

No worries, kind of the point of the thread really, make sure all our ideas are remotely sound.

 

I'm thinking of running my Praetor (Lord Protector) as; Cataphractii, Dragonscale Storm Shield, Mantle of the Elder Drake, Thunder Hammer; for 180pts.  Maybe MC the hammer for another 5pts.  He has EW, IDs all other Praetors, hits hard and reliably with the MC, and the 3++ helps mark him out, with only the Iron Hands able to do that.  The same combo can be made using an Iron Halo instead of the termi armour, which is nice in case you're running him with some ordinary power armour duded.

 

I'm liking the Mortis Contemptor with 2x MM for anti-air and anti-tank work, though the Keres is a nice option too.  The MM keeps him cheap though, which I like a lot.  That and they become MC'd with the Sally RoW.  The Sicarans are nice too with Lascannon sponsons, though the heavy bolters would good too.  Actually, now that I think of it, you can buy it heavy bolters, than swap all three (one in the hull) for heavy flamers for free with the Legion rules.  Not a bad horde control option, possible better than the Flamestorm Pred.  Though its not like we're lacking for horde control, so not exactly an ideal choice for the hotly contested heavy slot.

 

I'm looking at planning my first purchases, and for 2500pts of mechanized goodness, I'm thinking of something along the lines of...

 

Salamanders – 2500
(Covenant of Fire)

Praetor – Cataphractii Terminator, Thunder Hammer, Dragonscale Stormshield, Mantle of the Elder Drake/180pts

 

Firedrake Squad (5) – 4x Dragonscale Stormshield, 5x Thunder Hammer, 1x Heavy Flamer, Spartan, Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield/690pts

 

Mortis Contemptor Dreadnought – Two Multi-melta/155pts

Mortis Contemptor Dreadnought – Two Multi-melta/155pts

 

Tactical Squad (10) – Rhino, Heavy Flamer/200pts

Tactical Squad (10) – Rhino, Heavy Flamer/200pts

Pyroclast Squad (5) – Land Raider Proteus, Armoured Ceramite, Hull Heavy Flamer/400pts

 

Sicaran Battle Tank – Lascannon Sponsons/175pts

Sicaran Battle Tank – Lascannon Sponsons/175pts

And

Librarian Consul – Cataphractii Terminator, Mastery Level 2/150pts

Or

Whirlwind (2) – Hyperios Air Defense Missiles/150pts

 

My potential 3k list doesn't change much, basically swapping the Praetor for Vulkan, and throwing in a normal Contemptor with 2x DCCW with melta guns.

 

A little light on scoring units, but I'm also throwing around a 2500pts all foot list with 5+ scoring units, and something like 70+ power armour and terminator models.  So many options...my poor wallet.

[fission]

Yeah a good List Blacksails

 

But personnaly I prefer to have plenty of troops

 

I will put a list in a few days

[Blacksails]

Yeah, I'm kinda the same too, but I like mech a lot.  Though, I could always drop the Pyroclasts for two squads of Support Squads in Rhinos with Melta guns for about the same cost.  That'd give me 5 more scoring bodies.

 

Oh, and there's also the all foot option.  Two big 20-man blocks, with two 10-man pyroclast squads, with two 10-man heavy support squads.  That's 80 marines at 2500pts, then just throw in a unit of Firedrakes, and boom.  A whole bunch of scoring goodness.

 

It'd also be a hell of a lot easier to transport a pure infantry army.  So many options.

[depthcharge12]

Why are your contemptor mortis patterns less points than a basic costed contemptor?

 

 

 

Contemptors are 175 and they can swap the mm for hb for free but it would still cost in the ball park of 190 ish points without the mortis upgrade (doesn't that cost extra?)

[Blacksails]

No, but that harkens back to GW's general lack of understanding of balance and overestimating the power of dreads, particularly in CC.

 

The stock non-Mortis contemptor is 175pts, while the Mortis pattern is 155pts.

 

Oddly enough, the non contemptor variants (normal dreads, both mortis and vanilla) are 125pts.

 

Makes you tilt your head.

 

A vanilla contemptor with two MM is more expensive than the Mortis version.  And the vanilla contemptor with two DCCW and two melta guns is 205pts.  Just confusing.  Balance!