[HH1.0] Salamanders Tactics

[caladancid]

The only thing about combi-meltas and flamers is that Pyroclasts are better I think. Especially if you are running Covenant of Fire and can take them as troops. So I know I said earlier that I agreed with flamers/meltas, but I think I have talked myself out of them. Maybe only if you have full Heavy Support choices (which is pretty likely, I know for me once those new Leviathan dreads come out it will get painful making choices).

[ElectricPaladin]

One of the things I like to do when I'm starting a new game/army is write a tactical analysis and get feedback from my peers. Here's my attempt at doing one for Salamanders in 30k. Let me know what you think - perhaps this can be the seed of an official stickied "intro to Salamanders" post?

 

• • •

Salamanders

 

Benefits and Costs

 

By merely painting your army green and calling them members of the XVIIIth Legion, you enjoy a number of special benefits. In addition to being able to regroup at their normal Leadership value regardless of casualties, Salamanders are immune to the effects of the Fear special rule and must reroll one of the two d6s if they fail a Morale or Pinning test. All flame-weapons in your army (specifically hand flamers, flamers, and heavy flamers) gain +1 Strength and your opponent’s flame weapons wound your models at -1 Strength.

 

Additionally, all characters - both Independent Characters and embedded characters, like sergeants - can Master-Craft a single weapon for +5 points. The dragonscale storm shield - either a 5++ or improve an existing invulnerable save by one step to a max of 3++ - is available for +10 points for any Independent Character or +5 points as a replacement for any terminator armored character’s combi-bolter. Salamanders Praetors can also take a mantle of the elder drake for +20 points, granting them Eternal Warrior. Finally, any heavy bolter or twin linked heavy bolster can be a heavy flamer or twin linked heavy flamer at no additional cost. Any model that can take a plasma pistol can take an inferno pistol instead for the same cost.

 

If you take it one step further and adopt the Salamanders Legion unique Rite of War, the Covenant of Fire, all vehicles in your detachment have a 5++ against melta, volkite, plasma, and flamer weapons, including melts bombs, and all inferno pistols, meltaguns, and multi-melbas are Master-Crafted. Legion Pyroclasts (discussed in greater length below) can be taken as Troops (that don’t fulfill your minimum requirements). And your whole army gains Move Through Cover (which saves you a lot of points on dozer blades!).

 

On the other hand…

 

Salamanders are characteristically slow and deliberate, which translates to a -1’’ to all Run and Charge rolls. Salamanders also don’t add their Initiative to the d6 rolled for Sweeping Advances. Because Salamanders are awesome, they can’t take moritat consuls, destroyer units, or phosphex weapons of any kind.

 

Within the Salamanders Rite of War, you can’t deploy anything via Deep Strike (and things that must deploy that way can’t be in your list at all), your Heavy Support + Fast Attack choices can’t exceed your Troops choices, and you can’t take Fortifications at all. And, finally, while you can take as many Consuls as you want, only one of them can be anything other than a Legion Champion.

 

Unique Units

 

Salamanders gain access to two special units: firedrake terminators and pyroclasts.

 

Firedrake terminators are an Elites choice, though they can also be taken as a replacement for a command squad as a bodyguard for a terminator-armored praetor or Vulcan himself, and like most Terminator variants, their Implacable Advance rule means that they can take objectives, whatever slot they are taken from. They come standard with cataphractii-pattern terminator armor, combi-bolters, and power weapons - the “firedrake master” gets a Master-Crafted power weapon. Their options aren’t super exciting: they can trade their power weapons for power fists, chainfists, or thunder hammers, their combi-bolters for combi-flamers, combi-meltas, or dragon scale storm shields, and one of them can trade their combi-bolter for a heavy flamer. Firedrakes come in a squads of five, but can go up to ten, and can take a land raider proteus or phobos or a spartan assault tank as dedicated transport.

 

What sets firedrakes apart isn’t their gear (except for the combination of options that makes them 2+/3++ thunder hammer/storm shield terminators) or even their WS (a more than decent 5) or base Attacks (2 for the firedrakes, 3 for the master) - it’s their 2 Wounds. Anyone who’s played as or against Grey Knights knows how great durable two-wound models can be.

 

Pyroclasts, on the other hand, are, set apart by their gear. They are a Heavy Support choice, but they get moved to Troops by the effects of the Covenant of Fire Rite of War. Their stat line is standard Astartes. What’s unique about them is that all of them wear artificer armor, the squad leader can replace his combat blade with a power weapon or power fist, and all of them tote a pyroclast flame projector, a weapon that can be fired as either a flamer or a slightly weaker meltagun (6’’ range, Strength 6 AP 1). Pyroclasts elso enjoy a 5++ against flame, plasma, melta, and volkite, weaponry of all calibers.

 

Army List Thoughts

 

Looking at their list of advantages and disadvantages, Salamanders want to play quickly and aggressively, getting up in their opponents’ face where they can unleash high Strength flame and unusually reliable melta weapons. At the same time, Salamanders are unusually resistant to those kinds of weapons, which lets them get closer without as much fear. That - plus the lack of Deep Strike and the penalty to Run and Charge rolls - seems to imply that the best force would be a heavily mechanized army, focusing when possible on land raider variants and other AV 14 vehicles, the sort of things that are resistant to lascannon style weaponry thanks to their high AV, and are normally preyed upon by melta weapons, something that can be mitigated with the Armored Ceramite upgrade and Salamanders Legion special rules.

 

While Salamanders aren’t a particularly strong assault army, they are incredibly durable. Many characters - including sergeants - can easily be upgraded to have a 2+ armor save, a 4++ or 3++ invulnerable save, and in same cases, Eternal Warrior. This means that while Salamanders aren’t great at charging into assault, they don’t really mind being in assault. With plenty of flamers to provide reliable Overwatch hits, Salamanders don’t really mind being charged, either.

 

Crusade Army List Unit Analysis

 

Keep in mind that when I write about “winners” and “losers” I don’t mean “game-winners” or “game-losers.” Obviously, there’s a place for any unit in the right list, or with the right playstyle. What I’m referring to is how the unit makes out, given the benefits and limitations doled out by the Salamanders Legion special rules and Covenant of Fire Rite of War.

 

Additionally, I am not going to bother discussing units that can only deploy by Deep Strike. I know, I know, you don’t have to use Covenant of Fire, but assuming that most Salamanders want to use that Rite of War most of the time (or at least some of the time) they probably aren’t very interested in learning about those units and adding them to their collection. Points are points, and rules are rules, but money is money, and Forgeworld is expensive.

 

HQ

 

Salamanders have much the same HQ options as other Legions. Praetor, Centurion, and special characters, including Vulcan himself. Praetors are a no-brainer - they’re badasses, they unlock Rites of War, and they have lots of tasty options.

 

Centurions are a little more complicated, because with their Consul special rule, they unlock a number of different choices.

 

Salamanders get the most utility out of the following: Legion Champion, Vigilator, Librarian, Forge Lord, and Primus Medicae. Legion Champion is the only consul that Salamanders can take multiples of. Vigilator is an excellent choice, because anything that has the potential to slow your opponent down and give your army a chance to get into flame and melta range is all to the good. Librarians get a mention because of the potential to take Pyromancy powers. A forge lord is a good choice for keeping some of those big beefy AV 14 vehicles running (consider having a forge lord join any unit that rides in a land raider or spartan); he can also take a cortex controller, which lets you bring a squad of mechanicus monstrous creatures. And finally, a primus medicae gives the unit he’s with Feel No Pain, which combines very well with things like Eternal Warrior and 2+/3++ saves.

 

The Master of Signal gets an honorable mention because, like the vigilator, he has a one-shot long-range weapon that can help pin your opponent down while you race forwards. Unfortunately, unlike the vigilator, he doesn’t do much after that. His Nuncio-Vox isn’t much good in an army that’s probably going to eschew barrage weapons in favor of close-range firepower and doesn’t Deep Strike anything, whereas the vigilator can run with a seeker squad and continue to wreck havoc with his special bolter rounds.

 

Winners: champion, vigilator, forge lord, primus medicae, master of signal.

Losers: moritat (can’t even take him!)

 

Elites

 

Legion veteran tactical squads are a bread-and-butter Elites choice for all Legions, and their ability to brin meltas and/or flamers is excellent in a Salamanders legion. They aren’t particularly displaced by any other option, and their Veteran Tactics ability keeps them relevant even though they are in a list that includes pyroclasts - for example, while pyroclasts are more versatile, thanks to their weapon’s two modes, a squad of veteran tacs with the Tank Hunters USR, two meltaguns and a combi-melta on the sergeant, riding around in a rhino are a more effective dedicated vehicle assassination squad. Veteran tacs can also take missile launchers and heavy bolters with suspensor webs, which means they can provide effective fire support while keeping up with the rest of the army. And, of course, a rhino with two Strength 6 heavy flamers shooting out the top is pretty scary (especially if you also mount the rhino with its own heavy flamer!).

 

Vanilla legion terminators also still have a place in Salamanders armies, mostly because they are a lot cheaper than firedrakes and have better ranged weapon options. A footslogging squad with a reaper autocannon or two can do quite a lot to slow your opponent down by popping open his light transports, helping you to control the time and place of engagements. Giving the sergeant a storm shield (for a 3++) so he can tank for the rest of the squad improves their survivability significantly, as does having an apothecary of some description (primus medicae or part of an apothecarion detachment) for a 5+ FNP save.

 

Techmarine Covenant: Lacking Independent Character means that these guys can’t join units other than the servo-automata that join them. As a result, they’re vulnerable and slow. Gunline armies might benefit from a bunch of them with conversion beamers, but the Salamanders aren’t a gun line army. To get most of the benefits of a techmarine with none of the drawbacks, consider a forge lord consul.

 

An option that most Legions eschew, the apothecarion detachment, can be a great asset for some Salamanders armies by increasing their already considerable durability. They can be attached to a wide variety of squads, including tactical squads, breacher squads, seeker squads, heavy support squads, and veteran command squads, increasing their durability. With a primus medicae hanging out with something killier that’s not in this list - like, say, a squadron of firedrakes - you can have an army that’s very hard to kill.

 

Dreadnoughts (including contemptor and mortis variants) are still stuck in that in-between place, not quite as good as monstrous creatures, but less durable than most vehicles. That’s still true in 30k. Salamanders can get a lot of use out of their heavy flamers and multi-meltas, but keep in mind that no Deep Strike with the Covenant of Fire means that they will have to hoof it across the battlefield. If they’re walking alongside enough AV 14, however, your opponent might have to make some tough choices about where to put his long-range anti-tank firepower, which could make the difference. Additionally, dreadnoughts are vehicles, which means that they enjoy additional protection against melta.

 

Salamanders should probably avoid rapier weapons batteries, which are largely static. Although nothing’s wrong with artillery, even in a Salamanders force, the fact that they wield long range weapons and can’t fire on the move means that artillery is likely to be left behind as the rest of the army gets close enough to bring their heat-based weapons to bear. The fact that they can’t take any weapons that Salamanders are particularly good at doesn’t help any.

 

Winners: veteran tacs, apothecaries, terminators, dreadnoughts.

Losers: techmarines, rapier weapons batteries.

 

Troops

 

Legion tactical squads are the bread and butter of the Legiones Astartes. Deal with it. Most Salamanders are going to want to make these cheap and effective. Consider a combi-melta or combi-flamer on the sergeant and the add-a-ccw option, so that when they get assaulted because you played them aggressively to keep up with the rest of the option, they maybe don’t die as much.

 

Assault squads are in a weird place. Salamanders can’t Deep Strike when they’re using their unique Rite of War, which removes some of their utility. Salamanders lose 1’’ of all Charge rolls, which removes more (though the benefits of a jump pack probably mostly outweigh that disadvantage). On the other hand, the ability to take one hand flamer or plasma inferno pistol per five marines in the squad, plus one on the sergeant, could be interesting.

 

Breacher siege squads, on the other hand, are pretty much exactly what salamanders love. Attach an apothecary to the squad, load them up with flame or melta, and let your opponent charge them. Properly supported, they can tarpit an opponent’s assault units for quite a while, giving you time to bring some firepower to bear.

 

Tactical support squads seem like they are rendered largely irrelevant by pyroclasts. Tactical support squads can take normal meltaguns, but they are stuck with only one kind of gun. Pyroclasts, on the other hand, have a weapon that acts as a weak (but still effective) meltagun or a flamer. The main use of support squads would be to bring some kind of exotic weaponry that Salamanders aren’t exceptionally good at, like plasma guns, volte calivers, or rotor cannons. At that point, though, you’re hedging your bets rather than playing to your strengths, which is always a dubious prospect.

 

Most players seem down on legion reconnaissance squads, and with good reason. They’re basically beefed up scouts that might be in power armor, and are thus not much more than a tactical squad that doesn’t count against your Troops requirements. Worst of all, they can’t take melta or flame (with the exception of the sergeant swapping his bolster for an inferno pistol)! In recon armor with sniper rifles, they can infiltrate and take up a firing position, which makes them about as useful as scouts in 40k, but without the benefit of being cheap.

 

One sleeper use for a recon squad, however, might be their ability to take a storm eagle gunship as a dedicated transport. Storm eagle gunships are great - everyone agrees on that - but Salamanders have two problems. First, when you’re using the Covenant of Fire, you can’t Deep Strike your storm eagle, which means that you have fewer options for bringing them onto the board, and second, the Covenant of Fire limits your Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices. By taking the storm eagle as a dedicated transport for some recon marines, however, you move the storm eagle into the Troops category (which means that they and the recon squad together justify an additional Fast/Heavy choice, rather than taking one up). Additionally, the recon squad lets you Outflank the gunship, which solves some of the problems of not being able to Deep Strike it.

 

When used in this way, it’s probably best to keep the squad small and cheap and field them in power armor, plus meltabombs for everyone. Give the sergeant an inferno pistol. You now have the option of either having them jump out of the storm eagle to unexpectedly take an objective or having them charge and try to melta a vehicle to death, depending on the needs of the game.

 

Winners: tactical squads, breacher squads, recon squads.

Losers: assault squads, support squads

 

Fast Attack

 

When you play Salamanders with the Covenant of Fire, your Fast Attack choices are limited. Keep that in mind.

 

Legion seeker squads are probably one of the best options. They can ride in a rhino, which adds more vehicles to your probably mechanized force and causes your opponent to have to make more choices about who to shoot at with his long range anti-tank - and remember, Salamanders rhinos resist melta like pros! Seekers can load up on combi-meltas, the free Master-Crafting of the melta portion helping to make those shots count. And, of course, they have special issue ammunition, which is just as useful on seekers as it will be on sternguard veterans in ten thousand years.

 

Legion outriders occupy a weird place in the Salamanders legion. On the one hand, they’re not going to be mechanized, which means that they’re not adding metal boxes to the legion of metal boxes you want your opponent to be forced to chose between shooting at. On the other hand, between their Scout USR (conferring either a redeploy or Outflank), their speed, the ability to carry (Master-Crafted) melta-bombs and an impressive number of (Master-Crafted) inferno pistols (the Twin-Linked flamer or meltagun options for the bikes are valuable, but not especially so for Salamanders, as Twin-Linked and Master-Crafted don’t stack).

 

My personal jury is still out.

 

The legion attack bike squadron, on the other hand, seems like an excellent option. There aren’t a lot of sources for fast-moving multi-meltas in the Salamanders army list, and these guys fit the bill exactly. They can take meltabombs as well - another plus. If attack bikes could be included in outrider units, it would be a no-brainer - as it stands now, they’re probably the better choice… though the outriders Scout USR might keep them in the game. Consider them as a melta-happy escort for a primus medicae on a bike? T5 and a 5+ FNP is a pretty tasty combination.

 

Like assault squads, jetbike sky hunters suffer from the fact that part of what you’re paying for is their ability to Deep Strike, something Salamanders aren’t going to use. They can take multi-meltas, meltabombs, and an inferno pistol, though, which increases their stock somewhat.

 

Similarly, land speeders suffer from having Deep Strike as a standard USR, which therefore costs you points for an option you won’t generally use. They can take multi-meltas and they can fire them on the move, though. Like jetbikes, that might increase their stock to the point that they’re worth looking into.

 

Storm eagles are great. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Nothing about the Salamanders changes that. The fact that you’re paying for Deep Strike is disappointing, of course, but they’re so attractive otherwise that it’s almost not worth worrying about. Consider what I wrote above about taking them with recon squads so they can Outflank.

 

Tarantula sentry gun batteries don’t really gain anything from being in a Salamanders army. They’re static in an army that wants to advance and are mostly good for their long-range guns in an army that gives benefits exclusively to short-range guns. Definitely kind of a must-miss.

 

The primaris-lightning strike fighter is an excellent model, but Salamanders don’t give it anything. In fact, all they do is take - a primaris-lightning strike fighter in a Salamander Legion army can’t Deep Strike and loses access to phosphex bombs - both of which are valuable assets it carries to any other legion.

 

Javelin attack speeders, however, carry some additional benefits to a Salamanders army. In addition to being yet another fast-moving multi-melts or heavy flamer platform, they have the Outflank special rule, which gives them a way to get up the board and into position with almost the speed they can in other armies! Great! I’m not entirely sure they’re worth it on their own merit, but if you’re going to take speeders, I’d say definitely invest in these guys over standard landspeeders.

 

You can’t take deathstorm drop pods and still enjoy the Salamanders unique Rite of War, so I’m not sure why you even bother to own any. Sad face.

 

Winners: seeker squads, storm eagles, javelin attack speeders

Losers: jetbikes, landspeeders, tarantulas, primaris fighters, deathstorm drop pods, tanks.

 

Heavy Support

 

Legion heavy support squads, on the other hand, probably aren’t really worth it. It’s true that they can take heavy flamers and multi-meltas, but there are problems with those. The former they can fire on the move, but if you’ve given them a rhino (and really, you should, since you need more distraction rhinos to keep your mechanized force alive), only two of them can fire out the top at a time. At that point, you might as well just bring along a veteran tactical squad, which is cheaper and doesn’t use up one of your few heavy support slots. Multi-meltas on infantry suffer from the fact that they’re Heavy and short-ranged, a critically bad combination. Much like legion support squads, they’re good for bringing along things that Salamanders are not good at, like autocannons and missile launchers and plasma cannons lascannons and volkite culverins… but again, there you are hedging your bets rather than playing to your strengths.

 

The one role that they could continue to play in a Salamanders army is backfield anti-air, thanks to missile launchers with flakk.

 

With Salamanders vehicles and their resistance to melta, consider a legion predator strike armor squadron. That’s right - squadrons of predators. With a 5++ save vs. heat weapons, +1 Strength heavy flamer sponsons, Move Through Cover, and either a flamestorm cannon or a magna-melta (though, sadly, flamestorm cannons and magna-meltas are not listed among the weapons that gain +1 Strength or Master-Crafting - but they’re still good choices, because they have the predators operating at the same range as the rest of the army, so they don’t get left behind and outflanked). Take armored ceramite for extra protection against melta, and your opponent will have no choice but to try las (or autocannons/plasma and prayer).

 

Land raiders are also great for Salamanders, because the resistance to melta combines nicely with AV 14 and the option to buy armored ceramite. Consider bringing both land raiders and their big cousin, the spartan assault tank, as a matter of course, potentially even as transport for units that don’t necessarily want to assault (like, for example, big tactical blobs). Seizing objectives is still important. A Salamander land raider achilles will also be frustratingly hard to kill (automatically ignores both Lance and Melta, plus a 5++ against heat weapons, plus a -1 to all non-D Penetrating Hits). Put a techmarine or forge lord inside it for maximum troll.

 

Artillery tank squadrons, on the other hand, suffer from much the same flaw as some other tanks described thus far: they want to stay still on the backfield while the rest of the army charges forward to get into melta range, leaving them vulnerable to outflanking and death. They do enjoy the benefits of heat-weapon resistance, but they can’t take ceramite plating. All in all, you’re probably better off focusing your points on land raiders and predators.

 

Vindicators, though, are in the same category as predators: a great short range gun and the option to take armored ceramite, both of which seem to mesh well with the Salamanders way of waging war and special benefits.

 

The caestus assault ram is in much the same place as the storm eagle, except that there’s no recon squad workaround to get them up the board faster - you’re stuck bringing them in from your board edge. And again, the melta weapon they’ve got is a magna-melta, which means it doesn’t enjoy the Salamanders Legion special rules. It does come with armored ceramite standard, which is nice, but how often is anyone going to get that close to a flyer anyway?

 

That’s not to say that it’s bad - it’s just that the Salamanders don’t do anything to make it particularly good.

 

The legion whirlwind scorpius is an odd duck. It’s long-range weapon is a little bit shorter range the others, which means that it’s balanced around the kind of use Salamanders are going to put it to. It enjoys typical Salamanders vehicle durability, but there’s no way for it to take armored ceramite, and its weapon - while impressive enough on the move - gets the most benefit from being able to take up a single firing position. All in all, it’s probably best to relegate this one to the “probably not” pile with all the other artillery tanks.

 

Legion sicaran battle tanks are generally praised as the best thing since ever, but they don’t really benefit a lot from being in a Salamanders army (with the exception of having an option to upgrade to armored ceramite, which as has been mentioned, stacks nicely with the benefits bestowed upon Salamanders vehicles). That said, they are really good, so it might be worth it to bring them, especially if you have an opponent who favors units with Jink saves. Sadly, these bad boys are probably a lot better in 40k, where they’ll help you to take out Eldar/Dark Eldar/Necron/Tau transports - Jink isn’t nearly as common a special rule in 30k.

 

The fire raptor gunship is built on the same chassis as the storm eagle, but whereas the storm eagle focuses on bringing troops to battle - with weapons to help it clear the landing zone and secure safety for both itself by taking out other fliers or sources of skyfire/intercept and its infantry payload by contributing to wiping the opponents’ infantry off the board - the fire raptor is all gunship, with weapons that can easily make mincemeat of enemy infantry and light vehicles. Sadly, yet again, we are faced with a unit that has Deep Strike and no way to use it, as well as no recon squad workaround, and no particular use for Salamanders Legion special abilities. It doesn’t win or lose in a Salamanders army, it’s just there, being itself doing its thing.

 

Winners: predators, land raiders, vindicators.

Losers: heavy support squads, artillery tanks, caestus, whirlwinds scorpius, sicaran battle tanks

 

Lords of War

 

Once you get into taking Lords of War… I don’t know man, they’re all awesome and terrifying. Do what you like. In particular, though, the typhon heavy siege tank is like a vindicator on steroids, and meshes with the rest of the army about as well. A thunderhawk transporter can bring your vehicles even closer to the front lines while protecting them from enemy fire. The fellglaive has an awesome weapon (CHOOM!) with the shortest range of any of the fell-X family, which means that it’s balanced around how you’re probably going to be using it.

 

Remember - most of these vehicles either have armored ceramite standard or can be upgraded to have it. Take advantage of that.

 

Winner: if you bring a lord of war, you’re a winner as far as I’m concerned!

Loser: whoever is staring down the business end of your boom/pew/voosh/CHOOM-stick.

[Slips]

An interesting tidbit: You cannot take Destroyers as part of a Primary Detachment which is Salamanders.

 

Meaning you technically can take an Allied Detachment of Sallies and Include Destroyers.

 

Would say the same for Moritats buuuut 1HQ slot in Allied = no go. Main reason for this is because Chain Firing Dual Inferno Pistols would be stupidly overpowered. ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY GET MASTER-CRAFTED DUE TO COVENANT OF FIRE.

 

You also forgot to talk about their Special Characters.

 

Namely: Ashmantle, the only HQ Dread and Nomus the only one capable of taking Dreads as a Command Squad.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Slipstreams

[Hesh Kadesh]

Inferno pistols aren't badwith chainfire because 6"range gets out of range quickly.

[caladancid]

I was just thinking about how I will likely never get kills with my Inferno pistols today, as I created more sergeants with inferno pistols just for the principle of it.

 

I disagree some with the primaris-lightning analysis. If I am bringing them, I am loading them with krakens and making them mono role anyway.

 

I definitely agree with Salamanders being a mech assault army, with an emphasis on land raiders. For heavy support, I am likely to load up with the new dreadnought varieties. The lack of drop podding in CoF means I will probably not ever use Leviathans with that RoW though.

 

Three types of squads I want to test before investing in: Breachers, Assault, and Seekers. Your points about hand flamers is exactly why I would use a ten man Assault Squad with three hand flamers (one on sergeant). Breachers...expensive in points and money. I am not sure why I wouldn't just use terminators if I really wanted to tank things with a land raider unit. The Seekers with combi meltas sound good, but I wonder if the Pyroclasts aren't simply better (maybe the preferred enemy comes into play there). Really good write up overall ElectricPaladin.

[Slips]

Inferno pistols aren't badwith chainfire because 6"range gets out of range quickly.

True enough.

 

However, park him at the foot of a titan and its not getting away any time soon.

 

BS5 Hitting on 2s re-rolling misses for each pistol (1 shot at a time) due to Master-Crafted.

 

However, since each subsequent shot from chain-fire is a new attack you then gain the MC bonus again. Meaning ALL your shots are BS5 Re-rolling 1s.

 

At S8 Ap1. Immune to Melta or Otherwise, you have the HIGHEST probability out of all moritats to simply shoot forever.

 

Which is why they cant have them. Thankfully, while Forgeworld make mistakes, this wasn't one of them.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@ Electric Paladin: There seems to be some flawed reasoning that vehicles that can't take armoured ceramite are losing out compared to those that can with the RoW. Here's the thing, why would you ever shoot melta at something that has armoured ceramite to start with? Adding a 5++ is just a further incentive to pick other targets for melta or just spam grav, which is already the go to when it comes to raiders and spartans.

 

The 5++ is in fact better on the things without AC because they can be targeted by melta weapons

[ElectricPaladin]

@ Electric Paladin: There seems to be some flawed reasoning that vehicles that can't take armoured ceramite are losing out compared to those that can with the RoW. Here's the thing, why would you ever shoot melta at something that has armoured ceramite to start with? Adding a 5++ is just a further incentive to pick other targets for melta or just spam grav, which is already the go to when it comes to raiders and spartans.

 

The 5++ is in fact better on the things without AC because they can be targeted by melta weapons

 

The logic is meant to be in the vein of playing to your strengths. If you can stack AC and the Salamanders benefits on all your vehicles, you've got a situation where your opponent has no viable targets to the meltaguns he's almost certainly brought along... and then you've gotten him to waste a bunch of points! Yay you!

 

At least that was the thought... but like I said, I posted my tactica as much to learn as to teach. 

[Slips]

Its a good write up as is. Especially as a Newcomer.

 

The Smaller things, such as what Skimask has stated, you'll learn in due time.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well sure, but melta isn't the main anti tank weapon in 30k, grav is. The reason being that AC already shuts down melta enough; you don't shoot str 8 at av 14

[Charlo]

A Moritat with inferno is like a BA wet dream.

 

Let's hope they get it.

[Carlson793]

 

You also forgot to talk about their Special Characters.

 

Namely: Ashmantle, the only HQ Dread and Nomus the only one capable of taking Dreads as a Command Squad.

 

That'd be Cassian Dracos in 30K - Bray'arth Ashmantle is Badab War Era. Same model, but slightly different stats.

[Slips]

>_>

 

Thanks.

 

And yes an HQ dread with Av14 is hard to beat.

[Charlo]

>_>

 

Thanks.

 

And yes an HQ dread with Av14 is hard to beat.

Aye totally.

 

The characters and affinity for flamer weapons (Plus Vulkan being a BEAST) almost turned me to the eyes of the Drake!

 

Sadly I went similar but opposite in the Chem Death of the 14th.

 

How does Vulkan do anyway? He certainly looks just plain insane on paper.

[caladancid]

@ Electric Paladin: There seems to be some flawed reasoning that vehicles that can't take armoured ceramite are losing out compared to those that can with the RoW. Here's the thing, why would you ever shoot melta at something that has armoured ceramite to start with? Adding a 5++ is just a further incentive to pick other targets for melta or just spam grav, which is already the go to when it comes to raiders and spartans.

 

The 5++ is in fact better on the things without AC because they can be targeted by melta weapons

 

I just feel the need to comment on this grav spam stuff. I know on the forums everyone claims they have tons of grav rapiers or whatever the new hotness is, but in real life when I have seen FW HH armies that doesn't seem to be a huge issue. HH has an associated cost barrier that prevents the rapid shifting of meta (again in real life, the forums are a different story), and so planning to avoid the triple Spartan or multiple grav battery lists seems not worth the time to me. If things go well hopefully the box set will shift the meta back to infantry blobs like it was a few years ago.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I'm  toying with the idea of a fluffy, Xenocide list, that draws on CoF and Pyroclasts. 

 

The list is essentially a Delegatus for the RoW, two tactical taxes and 12 pyros spread across 2 Achilles Alpha Choomraiders supported by a Deredeo and Kheres-Mortis. 

 

Oh and there's enough room for the tacs to have Rhinos with heavy flamers for lulz. Topping off at 2k I think it's got serious resilience due to 6 armour units and more than enough choom. 

 

Though I'm sure the spoopy gravspam will get me.

Edited November 22, 2015 by The God-Potato of Mankind

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sure things cost money, but its super easy to convert up grav cannons out of the tracked ad mech guys and you get 3 as a result of one box. There's a big difference between theory crafting efficient armies and making a cool, themed HH force from forge world; conversions and counts as are often seen as a result of one guy buying something large from FW, his buddies getting stomped by it, and then quickly making their answer to it. A triple spartan list is probably not worth planning for, but you should always assume your opponent has some grav as its not exactly hard to get (dreads, rapiers, speeders, breachers).

 

So basically the more you spam vehicles that are melta resistant the more likely your opponents will take grav, and once they take it they probably won't stop since there's really no counter unlike melta  

[Hesh Kadesh]

It's like when back in 3rd and 4th edition Space Marines, people tried to say that 5 man LasPlas Squads weren't the only way to play Marines competitively. 

[caladancid]

I'm  toying with the idea of a fluffy, Xenocide list, that draws on CoF and Pyroclasts. 

 

The list is essentially a Delegatus for the RoW, two tactical taxes and 12 pyros spread across 2 Achilles Alpha Choomraiders supported by a Deredeo and Kheres-Mortis. 

 

Oh and there's enough room for the tacs to have Rhinos with heavy flamers for lulz. Topping off at 2k I think it's got serious resilience due to 6 armour units and more than enough choom. 

 

Though I'm sure the spoopy gravspam will get me.

 

Yeah at 2k that would be unfortunate to see. All that fire....

[caladancid]

It's like when back in 3rd and 4th edition Space Marines, people tried to say that 5 man LasPlas Squads weren't the only way to play Marines competitively. 

 

I don't mean this as a slight against you, but when I read things like this I realize we aren't talking the same language. I am not playing 30k (competitively or otherwise) to go with the new best flavor. I am playing 30k to look in Massacre, see that Salamanders fight in a certain way and like Phobos pattern bolters, and then go make an army like that. Being able to put up a fight in games and tournaments is a good thing, but particularly with the HH and 30k, it will never be the first thing.

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's fine if the competitive part of the hobby isn't what appeals to you for 30k, but in a thread about tactics and counter play, it'll probably be the focus. No one around here really "goes with the new best flavor", they just happen to know their friend has a spartan or two and they take grav or a lightning to kill it because they're tired of it being invincible, or they get swamped by multiple 20 man blobs so they start taking heavy removal like a typhon because their msu army can't go head to head. There's a lot of power units that cycle in and out depending on what people regularly face.

 

Back to my original point. Vehicles that are immune to melta get less value out of a 5++ vs melta because no one was ever going to shoot them with melta to begin with.

[caladancid]

That's fine if the competitive part of the hobby isn't what appeals to you for 30k, but in a thread about tactics and counter play, it'll probably be the focus. No one around here really "goes with the new best flavor", they just happen to know their friend has a spartan or two and they take grav or a lightning to kill it because they're tired of it being invincible, or they get swamped by multiple 20 man blobs so they start taking heavy removal like a typhon because their msu army can't go head to head. There's a lot of power units that cycle in and out depending on what people regularly face.

 

Back to my original point. Vehicles that are immune to melta get less value out of a 5++ vs melta because no one was ever going to shoot them with melta to begin with.

 

Definitely understand the competitive part, and let me make what I was trying to say a little bit more clearly. I want to be competitive. I just want to be competitive with a Salamanders themed army, and I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation in a Salamanders tactics thread versus a general Legion thread.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

How would you guys gear up Breachers?

 

Grav seems the go-to choice, but Breachers go very well with Assault Transport which goes well with Covenant of Fire for free master-crafted melta guns. 4 of them leaping out a Phobos can do some damage I'm sure. 

 

But more than the grav? Also the utility of grav to creat dangerous terrain is nice. 

 

I'm not keen on flamers as I feel I have enough anti-infantry elsewhere. That said, the +1S is nice.

Edited November 27, 2015 by The God-Potato of Mankind

[ElectricPaladin]

How would you guys gear up Breachers?

 

Grav seems the go-to choice, but Breachers go very well with Assault Transport which goes well with Covenant of Fire for free master-crafted melta guns. 4 of them leaping out a Phobos can do some damage I'm sure. 

 

But more than the grav? Also the utility of grav to creat dangerous terrain is nice. 

 

I'm not keen on flamers as I feel I have enough anti-infantry elsewhere. That said, the +1S is nice.

 

I've always assumed meltaguns. 

[caladancid]

I think your choice would depend on what targets the breachers are going for. If you are charging them right out into something you want to tank (termis or some assault unit) then I think meltas. If you are driving them to an objective or other point defense then I would take gravs. That's when the dangerous terrain would really help.