[HH1.0] Salamanders Tactics

[Russ Brother 92]

I hadn't realised (checked after) that they can man-up to 10 haha - that's a massive walking tank :)

 

Currently my 2k IHs list runs in with 21 Terminators (20 Cataph & Praetor), 2 Contemptors and 2 Consuls (Champion & MoS) with 185pts left :p though I've decided to stay nice as I could use the extra pts for cyber-familiars - anyway, good luck with them - a Firedrake based army would certainly give me worries :)

[Blacksails]

Yeah, imagine a few firedrake squads with a beefy Praetor (see a few posts before this for my ultimate praetor), and two ML3 Libbys with divination.  Pretty scary.

[farding]

Why would the Libbies make a differnce in that list? As the combi bolters are TL and the only things not are the flamers. they all have a better invun from the shields and the only good use of divination otherwise would be over watch which they cant and then the only use would be to force people to reroll sucessful saves. surely would be better with chaplins? Making fearless and giving them hatered?

 

Unless you used the libbies with the reroll their own saves and other bits but only on them and have them tank at the front. In which case i think the player may have forgotten Heresy is certainly for fun and good enjoyment for both players rather than the WAAC of normal 40k.

 

That praetor is nice though and simmilar to mine.

[Russ Brother 92]

@farding - I'm pretty sure the Divination would be used on other things, like prescience (iirc) affects CC as well as shooting, so prescience on Firedrakes before they charge would be pretty mean - or (and what I'd go for personally) pyromancy/biomancy for either extra firepower [pun intended] or some extra 'livability' with Iron Arm etc.

[farding]

Well you learn something new every day, Prescience affects combat, I should have read that more. Retracted now see why the libbies,

 

 

 

Love the pun.

[Blacksails]

Yeah, I'd be looking to get two of the powers; the primaris and the one that forces your opponent to re-roll successful saves.

 

But really, there's not a whole lot in the Pyromancy table that would be overly useful for a Salamander force.  We already have all the flamer and melta weapons we'd ever need, but at least a divination libby gives out a few handy buffs.  Nothing game breaking, but it certainly helps.

 

You are right that HH games should be predominantly fun and narrative focused, but bringing a few strong units is hardly against that spirit.  Then again, I also just want to try divination powers, as my IG don't have access to it and all I hear is people raving about divination.

[Russ Brother 92]

I've been using it to great effect in my 40k Wolves army :d especially useful when you enemy has lots of T5 terminators (Nurgle) or I6 terminators (Slaneesh/GKs) - but on topic - I'd say running a lvl 3 libby whilst costly can certainly be a massive force multiplier and no shirk in combat - otherwise I'd go for (as farding suggests) a Chaplain, I know sallies don't run from much but being Fearless + Hatred is always helpful :)

[Blacksails]

Well, Fearless is never really a bad thing in a Legion list, what with a few legions getting bonuses to sweeping advances and such.  That and Chaplains are pretty flavourful, but the other factor for me anyways is that a Libby is great to have for a HH list, as well as for a normal C: SM list.

[fission]

And don't forget the Primus Medicae ...to be more tougher...

I'am a big salamanders fan but I wonder why Forgeworld made the Firedrake so scary powerful (WS5 and W2 ) ?

 

The Pyroclasts : I don't know really how and against who to use them. Any idea ?

[Blacksails]

Well, if you take a Libby, you can't take a Primus Medicae (if you're using the RoW) with the consul restriction and all that.

 

I'm a little baffled at the differences of the elite terminator types across the legions so far.  I mean, Justaerin are pretty lacklustre, as are Phoenix Guard.  Even Deathshrouds aren't all that great, being only 2+/5++.  Really, the Firedrakes are the best of the terminator elite units we've seen so far.  My only gripe is that I wish they came in a base squad size of 2-3 and add them as needed, mostly to use them in smaller games.

 

Pyroclasts would (theoretically) work well in all foot lists as your replacement Support squads.  They're a little cheaper than a melta equipped support squad, but are also very effective anti-horde and come with a 2+ save.  Pair one 10-man squad with a 20-man Tactical Squad and you've got a good fire base for nearly everything.  Very short range, but meh, its what Sallies do, at least Move through cover helps this.

 

Other than that, the Land Raider tax limits their usefulness.  Kind of unfortunate.  The models will be a make or break for me.

[fission]

Yeah I will see when the miniatures of the Pyroclasts will come ... I'm just thinking of them against Orks warbands...

 

I hope that in the third book we will have some new characters for the Sallies.

For the moment I'm preparing the Pyre Guard miniatures if Forgeworld won't make them.

 

And I have a fluff question : In tje Massacre book it is said that the Sallies Legion is divided in 7 Realms , all of them ruled by a lord Protector . In the same book (and in Vulkan Lives ) it is said that the Pyre Guard members (7 men) ruled the chapter of the Legion.

But in Massacre one of the Lord Protector is named (sorry I don't have my book with me right now) and his name is different from the name of any of the 7 Pyre Guard.

So do I misunderstood that the Legion is ruled by Vulkan , the 7 Lord Protector AND the 7 Pyre Guard ?

Or something else ?

[Blacksails]

I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but my understanding is that the Legion is ruled by the Lord Protectors (7)(and Vulkan).  Members of exemplar leadership/dedication to the Promethean Cult/generally all around badass become Firedrakes.  Those that are exceptional beyond even the Firedrakes' standards become the Pyre Guard who serve as retainers/bodyguards to the Primarch/Lord Protectors.

 

That's my general understanding.

 

Unless of course the Lord Protectors=Pyre Guard, but I'm not seeing it.

 

I think of the Pyre Guard as command squads/honour guard on crack.

[fission]

Ok but the Lord Protector ruled the seven realms (Massacre)

The Pyre Guard ruled the Legion Chapter (Promethean Sun , Vulkan Lives )

 

So my point is : what is the difference between Realms and Chapter inside the salamanders Legion ?

 

NB : Artellus Numeon , leader of the Pyre Guard and equerry of Vulkan , is also First Captain

[Russ Brother 92]

I'd say that's a case where the Lord Protectors may be rulers of the realms, but due to their other duties aren't Pyre Guard (so they rule back home and command a lot of respect in-Legion) however the Pyre Guard being Vulkan's BGs are the commander in-Legion and command respect back home in the realms. At least that would make sense as to why the Lord Protector/s may be different from the Pyre Guard.

[Blacksails]

Well, now I don't know what to think.  I've only read the Tome of Fire trilogy by Nick Kyme, so I'm not as well versed in the subtleties of Legion command structures.

 

For now though, I'm going to stick with the Pyre Guard being super honour guard/advisors to the Lord Protectors.

 

Basically, every realm has a cadre of Firedrakes.  We don't have a specific number, but we can safely assume it would be at least a few squads that can be parcelled out to the numerous battalions/companies.  Then, of these Firedrakes, the very best may become Pyre Guard.  What the Pyre Guard do exactly is the real question.  I still think of them as super command squads.

 

Also, I don't think the legion has chapters; the largest denomination is a realm.  While legions like the Word Bearers use Chapters as their largest demonination, the Salamanders have realms.  From there its largely unclear, but we know there are hundreds of line companies of ~120 legionnaires.  My understanding is then that cadres are formed from these companies for specific campaigns and purposes.  It appears they don't use larger formations constantly, like Battalions, just a plethora of line companies each doing their own thing.

 

Man, now I'm confused.  There are a few word swaps in the legion structure explanation which confuse me.

[Kol Saresk]

Vulkan Lives says there are only four Pyre Guard. They are all Terrans and have a position similar to the Mournival.

 

The Lord Protectors are nine commanders who are similar to the Lord Commanders we see in the Emperor's Children. So the Pyre Guard are actually above the Lord Protectors.

[fission]

Vulkan Lives and Promethean Sun : they are 7 Pyre Guard and they lead the chapters of the Legion .

 

Massacre : The Salamanders Legion under Vulkan adopted a series of extensive reforms to its structure, the widest and most reaching of which was the
organisation of the XVIII Legion into seven Realms each under the command of its Lord Protector, below which numerous line companies, each of around 120 Space Marines were formed.

 

So in my mind Realms should be Chapters ....That's the problem ....

A mistake made by Forgeworld or Nick Kyme . Or they wrote separately without speaking together....One more mistake in the fluff.

[Kol Saresk]

Or the titles Realm and Chapter are interchangeable and 7 of the Lord Protectors are Pyre Guard.

[Blacksails]

Hmmm, that's interesting Kol_Saresk and Fission.

 

I'll have to read those two sooner than later.  Is there a general order in the HH novel series I should follow?

 

Its a bit ambiguous in Massacre; its explicitly stated that the Lord Protectors command a Realm, which is the largest division of the Legion, but the Pyre Guard are simply stated as the best of the Firedrakes who serve as Vulkan's retainers.

 

I'm certainly not opposed to the idea that certain Lord Protectors (or indeed all of them) are the Pyre Guard.

[fission]

That's the point : Page 123 (Massacre) one of theLord Protector is named Lord Da'Ru .

But the 7 Pyre Guard are Numeon, Skatar'var and Leodrakk , Varrun ,Ganne , Igataron and Atanarius ....

 

Blacksails : I thnik you should read in that order : Promethean Sun , Vulkan Lives and possibly after Massacre. But you will see differences between HH novels and Forgeworld Books . For Scorched Earth I don't know I don't have it.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, so let me see.

 

According to Massacre, Vulkan reformed the Legion into seven "Realms". To each of these realms, he assigned a Lord Commander(also known as a Protector) to protect each city-settelment.

 

And then we have the Pyre Guard, who are in charge of the Realms and are always with Vulkan.

 

Actually, this looks pretty straightforward.

 

The Lord Protectors are in charge of home while the Pyre Guard are in charge of the frontlines.

 

I guess I still fail to see the conflict.

[Blacksails]

But my understanding of Massacre is that the Lord Protectors are in charge of their respective realm.  The Pyre Guard don't have any explicit leadership role according to Massacre, which is where the conflict is.  I'd imagine if the Pyre Guard were each in charge of a realm, they would have been explained as such in Massacre.

[Kol Saresk]

 

But my understanding of Massacre is that the Lord Protectors are in charge of their respective realm. The Pyre Guard don't have any explicit leadership role according to Massacre, which is where the conflict is. I'd imagine if the Pyre Guard were each in charge of a realm, they would have been explained as such in Massacre.

True enough, but the Lord Protectors are supposed to protect their respective city-settlements in case of attack. Hard to protect something if you ain't around.

[helterskelter]

They took our jobs!!!

[fission]

Fact :

 

Massacre p.123 : Lord Protector Da'Ru of hte Realm of Themis is on Istvaan V at the Drop Site Massacre. Ok protecting the sanctuary city is ONE of their duty but not the only one.

 

I am not telling you're wrong . It fit perfectly well if the Lord Protector are sort of "chapter master" who ruled the chapter/Realms . And  Pyre Guard are just seen as advisor of Vulkan and Parangon of what must be a Firedrake (and pf course bodyguard)

 

My main problem is that Nick Kyme is telling otherwise in the HH Novel .

 

Vulkan Lives , chapter 18 : Numeon of the Pyre Guard is dispatching the Sallies troops on Istvaan V . Also rank name are told about the Sallies : Chapter Masters, lieutenant commanders, company captains....

Chapter 2 :each Pyre Guard command a chapter of the Legion ....

 

When you read Vulkan Lives it seem simple to say that Kyme have worked with Forgeworld for the background .

But he must have make a lot of mistake .

 

An other one :

Vulkan Live chap 14 : Salamanders Flagship at Istvaan V: Fireforge

The First Heretic Chap 24 : Salamanders Flagship at Istvaan V: Flamewrought

 

....

 

Its strange how the authors , editors , Game designer seems to build the fluff in their own corner and we , the fans , must choose which one is the good one ...