[HH1.0] Salamanders Tactics

[Kol Saresk]

Could a Chapter be a part of the realm?

 

Another thing is, Forgeworld is taking the "looking back" approach and it is littered with phrases like "fragmentary information" and "incomplete records". I don't know. I usually try to find a way to make it all come together, but this one is a pickle.

 

I would say go over to First Expedition and see if Laurie Goulding would answer it, but so far his answers are either "it's intentional" or "I can't say" and "it wasn't meant to be codified to such detail". So I'm not sure if that'd be any help. Maybe we can ask Forgeworld since there's something also about a possible conflict I wanted to ask them about. I'll fire out the e-mail.

[Blacksails]

On the realms and their commanders;

 

"To each of these he assigned a Lord Commander, known also as a Protector, as it was their sworn duty, in addition to to that of a warrior of the Emperor, to protect the city settlementin time of attack." p119 Massacre.

 

"...the widest and most reaching of which was the organization of the legion into seven realms each under the command of its Lord Protector..." p120 Massacre.

 

On the Pyre Guard;

 

"Amongst these, the greatest formed the Pyre Guard; the Primarch's own loyal retainers." p.121 Massacre

 

I admit I haven't read the novels which seem to be self contradicting anyways, but it appears that the Lord Commanders/Protectors are the masters of their realms and indeed spend much of their time crusading and fighting.  The title Protector appears to exist as a reminder that they're sworn to defend Nocturne in a time of crisis or as the need arises.  It would also be quite difficult for them to command their realm from Nocturne, rather than deploy with the strongest concentration of their realm, as seen during Istvaan V.

 

Using only Massacre as a source, the Pyre Guard seem to be just super Firedrakes.  The confusion is with the novels who claim that the Pyre Guard are in command of the realm/chapter.  This could be oversight, or a direct contradiction, or it could imply that the Lord Protectors are also Pyre Guard members.

 

But as Fission pointed out, there are discrepancies with even the name of the ships at Istvaan V, as with the problems with chapters and realms.

 

This could also be explained by a little revisionist history by FW for Massacre.

[fission]

Thanks for asking Forgeworld , I've tried on their facebook page but no answer for the moment.

 

I will perhaps subscribe to the First Expedition Forum because i never go on this website. If anyone can ask for me it would be great.

 

I will wait a little bit to ask Nick Kyme about that. He is kind enough to answer to fluffy question by hardcore fan like me , I don't want to waste his time too much.

 I 've discuss with him a few times and he was always kind enough to answer me . It's a good example of an author who honestly recognized his mistakes as he as done with me about the difference of chronological timeline between the salamanders trilogy and the last space marine Codex.

 

About the differences between Massacre and Vulkan Lives I think it's pity . The two books were written at the same time . Lack of communication...as usual

[Kol Saresk]

Thanks for asking Forgeworld , I've tried on their facebook page but no answer for the moment.

 

I will perhaps subscribe to the First Expedition Forum because i never go on this website. If anyone can ask for me it would be great.

 

I will wait a little bit to ask Nick Kyme about that. He is kind enough to answer to fluffy question by hardcore fan like me , I don't want to waste his time too much.

I 've discuss with him a few times and he was always kind enough to answer me . It's a good example of an author who honestly recognized his mistakes as he as done with me about the difference of chronological timeline between the salamanders trilogy and the last space marine Codex.

 

About the differences between Massacre and Vulkan Lives I think it's pity . The two books were written at the same time . Lack of communication...as usual

Maybe not. There is a contingent of Firedrakes with every realm correct? So if we logically infer that each grouping of Firedrakes is its own Chapter and that each of the Pyre Guard are in charge of each Chapter, we get a reconciliation that the Chapters are parts of the realm and are each led by a Pyre Guard while the Realms are led by the Lord Protectors.

 

And, I'm not sure about the ships. Reading through Chapter 14, nothing explicitly says the Fireforge is the flagship. Just that's where Vulkan's personal quarters are, so we just assume it is the flagship out of habit of us only seeing Primarchs on their flagships.

 

I don't know. Personally, I figure these things are things that are supposed to be caught by the editors. Then again, Nick Kyme is an editor. Not to mention someone gave a book where Lysander can use a gene-locked weapon coded to a genetic signature he isn't even supposed to have hit the shelves so................. yeah. Maybe I just don't know what an editor is supposed to do.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Kol_Saresk

[fission]

Lol about the editor job.

 

Pretty nice conclusion with the Firedrakes "Chapter" , it would explain a lot .

So the fact that Numeon (first captain and leader of the Pyreguard ) is dispatching the Sallies troops on Istvaan V , is perhaps a request of Vulkan himself.

 

For the Flagship here are the two answer of Nick Kyme :

 

 

Nick Kyme
http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v2/yj/r/mkUCm0hEprk.gif27/09/2013 17:58

That's my bad, it should be the Flamewrought.

 

 

 

http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v2/yj/r/mkUCm0hEprk.gif27/09/2013 19:35 Nick Kyme

We
did wonder if the flagship changed at some point, for some reason. I
think that still might be on the cards as a possible explanation... I'll
ask the guru and see what he says.

Edited November 5, 2013 by fission

[Kol Saresk]

lol, nice.

[fission]

lol, nice.

Yes Nick Kyme is a pretty cool guys with who you can discuss if you are not a too silly hardcore fan ;)

[farding]

 

Maybe not. There is a contingent of Firedrakes with every realm correct? So if we logically infer that each grouping of Firedrakes is its own Chapter and that each of the Pyre Guard are in charge of each Chapter, we get a reconciliation that the Chapters are parts of the realm and are each led by a Pyre Guard while the Realms are led by the Lord Protectors.

 

 

 

 

 

Very good point in explaining the pyre guard, Perhaps as each realm maintains its own contingent of firedrakes if these where o be fielded as one (company or chapter depending on the size) then the captain of them would be considered a first amongst the Firedrakes who they lead and are the elite of the legion. These captains could also possibly be the Pyre guard. Would this not explain both Massacre and Promethium sun and vulkan lives?

 

It is also mentioned that the Pyre guard are all terran born would find it odd if all the lord protectors where terran and protectors of the sanctity cities on nocturne.

 

 

(scorched earth is a good read but not heavy on the salamander specific details)

[fission]

Ok I had an answer from Nick Kyme , this guy is great and kind :

 

Hey *****, no need to apologise at all. I can
appreciate the confusion. With so many different publications, written
by lots of different writers, all of which need their project to fulfil
certain criteria as far as the background in concerned, contradictions
can sometimes occur. However, in this case your rationalisation is both
logic and correct. When I invented the Pyre Guard, I never imagined
further life would be breathed into them through a Forge World book. I
first imagined them as a discrete brotherhood, quite like Vulkan's
Mournival. The Forge World book and the needs of fleshing out an army
for the Salamanders Legion with its own special characters and units
meant my idea of the Pyre Guard changed slightly. It doesn't undo
anything done or written already, rather it clarifies it. So, yes, the
Pyre Guard are drawn from the Firedrakes and every realm has Firedrakes
in it. The Lord Protectors are different characters. The Pyre Guard are
awesome warriors and leaders in their own right. They can lead armies,
they can be Vulkan's advisors and bodyguard (not that he really needs
them). At the time of the Horus Heresy, the Pyre Guard were those seven
warriors you mentioned, and Da'Ru is one of The Lord Protectors. Very
different roles, but both extremely important in the formation of the
Legion and the Chapter that follows.

 

That's a gentleman !

[Blacksails]

So...looks like we were all right in some capacity.

 

Super Firedrakes that can act as superior officers, advisors, or bodyguard.

 

And apparantly Lord Protectors can also become Pyre Guard, as kind of a dual role thing.

 

Cool, I like it.  Vulkan's own Mournival.

 

*Edit* Almost forgot to thank Fission!

 

Nick Kyme indeed seems like quite the man.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Blacksails

[Kol Saresk]

Woohoo! Vindication! lol

 

Seriously, thanks for asking for us fission

[Kais Klip]

Woohoo! Vindication! lol

Seriously, thanks for asking for us fission

When will you lot be done with vindication...

 

Nice work fission!

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Woohoo! Vindication! lol

Seriously, thanks for asking for us fission

When will you lot be done with vindication...

 

Nice work fission!

When we commit suicide in a maze that anyone who enters will never leave and thus no one is able to find out about our demise.

[Russ Brother 92]

Sounds like someone's going to play hide and seek on Medrengard then Kol :p

 

It's rather nice that authors take the time to answer us plebian fluff-hunters :) anyway - do you guys think they'll make rules for Pyre Guard?

[fission]

I hope they will make Pyre Guard, but because they are all the seven the big heroes of the Sallies Legion , I think they will only create Numeon, the first captain.

 

And I wonder if they will create the miniatures for them.because I am already preparing my own miniatures of them. (We have a pretty good description of their stuff in the HH novels)

 

Perhaps an other characters they should create would be Umojen the Chief Librarian. (Who you can see in Thousand Sons and Gates of Terra )

[fission]

Double post for the good cause (I will fix it in the evening)

 

I asked on the forgeworld facebook page if they will make a guide for the colorsof the 4 legion in Massacre (as they have done for betrayal) ....and they won't...strange...

 

Its a big problem for me because which green to use for the sallies ? Not the same in 40K

[fission]

Just asking myself (because I'm french I'm not sure of the rule) :

Firedrake Terminator Squad - Favoured of Vulkan Rule : a firedrake terminator squad may be chosen instead of a command squad as a bodyguard for anyterminator armour-equipped Praetor of the salamander legion.

 

So do these firedrake bodyguard count :

-as an Elite choice

Or

- as the same HQ choice with their Praetor (like a Command Squad)

 

?

[Adra'Melek]

I would say that they replace the command squad so they're HQ

[Russ Brother 92]

Like Justaerin for SoH you may take them for both, however you CAN'T have Fire Drakes + command squad for one Praetor.

[brojob]

I hadn't realised (checked after) that they can man-up to 10 haha - that's a massive walking tank

 

Currently my 2k IHs list runs in with 21 Terminators (20 Cataph & Praetor), 2 Contemptors and 2 Consuls (Champion & MoS) with 185pts left though I've decided to stay nice as I could use the extra pts for cyber-familiars - anyway, good luck with them - a Firedrake based army would certainly give me worries

 

So what are your troops? Am I missing a way that you are making your termies troops?

[Russ Brother 92]

You are missing it - I run a Pride of the Legion force so all my terminators barring the Praetor himself are scoring Troops :D

[brojob]

Do you think it would be better to use pride of the legion for veterans in rhinos or to take tactical squads and support squads in rhinos instead? I can't decide if pride of the legion or covenant of fire would be better for a rhino mounted force. 

 

Here's my list. I'm bad at this sort of thing. It should be around 2000 points. For scaling up to 2500, I would probably add breachers in a rhino, a consul, and 2 moer firedrakes. Feedback would greatly be appreciated. 

 

rite of war

covenant of fire

 

HQ

praetor with MC paragon, inferno pistol, iron halo, mantle, digital lasers, shield 205

 

elites

8 firedrakes with 4 hammers and shields, 1 heavy flamer, 3 combiflamers, and 4 power weapons 480

 

 

troops

tactical squad with MC combi and rhino with heavy flamer 180

 

tactical squad with MC combi and rhino with heavy flamer 180

 

support squad with flamers and rhino with heavy flamer210

 

 

heavy support

artillery with two basilisks 280

 

spartan 295

 

sicaran with lascannon sponsons 175

Edited February 25, 2014 by brojob

[farding]

Looks good from my point but not the greatest with the army lists, Since you are using the covanate of fire why not have more melta weaponry? Could possibly have the armoured spearhead with that current list too.

 

Sadly Breachers can't have rhinos any in that case no drop pods for them either.

 

 

also I ave a question on the favoured by Vulkan Rule for the Fire drakes. If taken as a comand retiune do they get the chosen warrior rule that comand squads have? Just hinking int he sense of the Master crafting characters weapons rule.

[Russ Brother 92]

I beleive as Salamanders you can Master-Craft thunder hammers anyway? I may be wrong as I play Iron Hands myself hence why I'm not fussed about a footslogging force (I like FNP on Termies).

 

I'm not sure whether I'd suggest taking 4 Firedrakes as the command squad and 4 seperate (gives you 2 scary hammer wielding units not 1) or just the big unit you have now.

[brojob]

2 units of 5 would be nice, but I feel I would have to get transports for both of them. I really want to use pyroclasts or firedrakes for fluff, but I just can't stand that I need to buy expensive land raiders/spartans for them. I just wish pyroclasts could take a damn rhino. What are your thoughts on mechanized troops in 30k? My troop amount is low, so I may split the support squad in two. I'll only have 30 troop models, but I will go from having 3 to 4 units. IIRC, firedrakes are also scoring in games where troops are scoring.