[HH1.0] Salamanders Tactics

[fission]

Hello guys , it's been a long time since I post .

Was just reading again the Legiones Astartes book (Istvaan Campaign Legions) and particularly the Salamanders section ...

 

.. and then I noticed it ... the LegionSpecific Restriction Rules (Disdain of the Dark Age) have changed since the Massacre book ...

 

... now ... Destroyer squad , posphex weapons and Moritat Consull can't be used ...in a Salamander Legion PRIMARY Detachment !!!

 

So if u take an Allied Detachment of Salamanders you can have them ( I'm thinking especially of the Sallies Moritat ... ).

But in the Crusade Army book it is not precisely written that a primary salamander detachment can't have a salamander allied detachment ...

 

What do u think guys ?

 

EDIT : just read the ERRATA and Moritat can't be taken as ally . But my question is still good for the Destroyer and phosphex

Edited August 30, 2014 by fission

[Russ Brother 92]

iirc it's specified that you can never ally with your own primary detachment of the same legion - so no sallies primary w/sallies allied ibc destroyers job - you could take another legion or even a non-legion specific force and then have Sallie allies though.

[UltraCaptain]

You seem to be correct. An allied salamander detachment to, perhaps an imperial fist primary, would be able to run those units. However, the Moritat still cannot be taken, because it cant be the allied detachments compulsory HQ and there are no HQ slots left. But destroyers could be taken as an elite.

[ogionfrost]

I thing Praetor with MC Paragon better than MC TH. Yes, it's will not give instant death, but that guy is for challenges. And most of the 2ap melee weapons kills at initiative 1. But paragon does it on his truly initiative 5. It's a 200pts armyman with catafractii armour, + medick-counsul+firedrakes. Enemychewing machine.

[grand_master85]

Then again, that's the point of giving him an Iron Halo, Dragonscale Storm Shield and the Mantle of the Elder Drake. It gives him a 3++ and Eternal Warrior. By giving him the MC TH, you allow him to much easily deal with a variety of threats from terminators, to dreadnoughts to possibly even taking a wound or two off a Primarch if he is unlcuky enough to be in contact with one. You want your Praetor dealing with the big threats, so he needs to be armed for it. That's the advantage of the Salamanders Praetor over the other Legions

[caladancid]

So is the idea of having an entirely foot list with Vulkan a really bad idea? Is the Spartan mandatory with Vulkan and Firedrakes?

[Slips]

No, but, at the points levels Vulkan will be fielded at (cant be more than 25% of your List) you'll probably get wiped off the board by tanks long before they become useful.

[caladancid]

My goal was to come up with a 2.5k list with Vulkan in it. Too low?

 

And are you saying that foot lists are not good above a certain points level?

[Slips]

They can work, but it will be very hard because when your facing things like Spartans, Terminator Blobs IN spartans, "Raven Force One" (an RG list I made for 2.5k that had 2 storm eagles, 2 fire raptors and 1 Darkwing Storm eagle), Iron Warriors Artillery Brigade, etc. the amount of stuff that can just wipe your footsloggers off the map gets higher and higher the greater your points limit is. This being the case, you'll find your footslogging units disappearing before your very eyes as they try and get the job you set for them done. 

 

However, if you take a Hammer & Anvil approach to it; most of your troops are footslogging Tac Blobs with Apothecaries, have some Mechanized support (contemptor-mortis, sicarians, predator squadrons, etc.) and have a hammer unit (mostly your HQ's and Elite choices or other special formations) that goes out ahead of everyone in a VERY tough unit (spartan most likely), your more likely to see some success because you have a lot of redundancy to deal with various high priority threats all the while having a strong core unit that can get you the desired results and have it be kept safe from potential instagibs.

[caladancid]

Ok that does make sense. Looks like Vulcan will be riding in style.

 

Contemptors seem like a good addition to a foot list. Maybe two Mortis and one with dual DCCWs.

[grand_master85]

Mortis-Contemptors with TLLC are a bit of an auto-include atm. They deal nicely with fliers but can also hang back and ping tanks on the ground from a safe distance.

I think having a mechanised force suits the Salamanders nicely. My 3k list centers around Vulkan and a squad of Firedrakes in a Spartan (I know, it's stupidly pricey; like, 1100-ish pts) and 2-3 Tactical Squads in Rhinos. I also have a Sicaran Venator for some fast moving tank-hunting and a Whirlwind Scorpius for troop killing.

[caladancid]

Rather than tanks or at least in addition to, is there a consensus on using Mechanicum (Legio Cybernetica in particular) allies? I would think that a couple Thanatar would be an effective mobile battery.

[Kor'Vesh]

What do you guys think of running Vulkan with a five man Pyroclast squad all in a Landraider proteus with explorator augary web?

 

Clearly, the Firedrake-spartan combo is the best delivery system, but in a low point game (2k to 2.5k) I think that might be an interesting option to bring the big fella to the table. The whole squad should be flaming or melting a target on T1 due to the raider's scouting ability, after which point vulkan could split off from the pyros or stick with them and smash his way through the enemy from turn 2 . I suppose a normal raider with an assault ram would work pretty well too, but you are always looking at a turn 2 assault any way, and I think the scouting raider might be a safer option.

 

Secondly, is a storm eagle ever a viable transport for the drakes and vulkan? I really want it to be, but it just feels like the storm eagle will always die in this scenario...

[Slips]

With the prevalence of Contemptor-Mortis' bringing a single Storm Eagle would be a waste of points, imo. If you were to bring a flyer, you'd probably need to bring more than one so that they can't just dump all their fire into one of them and instantly bring it down.

 

Since Vulkan + Pyroclasts don't necessarily need to charge out of a vehicle to be effective - what with having flamers galore + a Primarch's toughness to shield them - If you're strapped for points, a Proteus could work nicely, especially since you'll be able to scout it up further, gaining a distance advantage over a Spartan. That said, if you could find ~50 points, using a Land Raider Phobos (the standard with Lascannons) and Firedrakes, you could make a "poor mans" version of the "Adamantium Coconut" that is Vulkan + Bros in a Spartan with Flare Shield & Armored Ceramite.

[Kor'Vesh]

So we agree (sadly) on the storm eagle. Can anyone convince me otherwise?

 

I think my idea with the pyro-proteus-vulkan combo is to find some reasonably viable alternative ways to run vulkan, particularly for those who want to pack him into a 2k list. I'm not saying this is super competitive! Drakes-spartan-vulkan is clearly the winner, but at 1200ish points it's a big price to pay in anything less than 3k really, and very much all eggs in one, armour played, Martian energy shielded basket.

 

On the Phobos point - I don't think it works with firedrakes, as they come at 5 man minimum (unless taking them as a command squad lets you take just 3... Which I doubt). I suppose Vulkan in a Phobos with another viable option for low point games though.

 

Anyone think that running Vulkan around on his own after leaving his pyros and raider would be a problem. He does have a low number of attacks, but Earth shatter seems to mitigate tar pitting pretty nicely... And he really is VERY hard to kill.

[Slips]

You could shove him into a Kharybdis or Caestus; they are more likely to survive and drop their payload than a Storm Eagle, imo. Though they are just as pricey as a Spartan (irl and Points wise). And since the Kharybdis has a 20 man capacity (or 1 dreadnought) you could fit in what you'd shove into a spartan (or a bit less) and the Caestus ignores the Bulky rule.

 

I wouldn't really let a Primarch, no matter how hard they are to kill, run around on their own. Because for roughly the same points you could tarpit them with Terminators and they have a slightly higher chance of actually offing your Primarch than say 50 Guardsmen. And really, you want them to run around the board wiping things off it, not get stuck for 2+ turns having to deal with stuff even if they are ~10 terminators. So having a squad of well, terminators, would help Vulkan go full hulk mode on the board (hey he's already a giant and green, so why not?).

 

Unless its Angron...him you just point in a direction and watch your opponent just take models off the table and weep.

 

For the Phobos, true, I forgot that you can only fit 5 terminators +1 (But not a Primarch right?) into one. So for it to work, I'd say a squad of 5-7(?) Pyroclasts + Vulkan. It'd let you charge out into combat so that they don't get shot immediately then when that combat is resolved, flame anything near by or hop back into the Land Raider. Also serves as very strong Assault deterrent for attempting to Tarpit him, even with Earth Shatter, there are bound to be some survivors. Whereas when charging into the Pyro's + Vulkans Flamers, well, they're going to have a really bad time. Only problem is that it's a lot more fragile (but as a result cheaper) of a "star" unit than Firedrakes.

[Kor'Vesh]

All good points Slipstreams, cheers.

 

Can a primarch go in an assault ram though? The wording says power armour, arty armour and terminator armour (who ignore bulky). Vulkan is in unique armour, and is very bulky so I'm unsure if that (rather good) option is open to him :(

 

The choice of Landraider is quite interesting for the vulkan and pyro unit. The Phobos gives you more pyros, and an assault ramp, so vulkan and his guard are less likely to have to weather a turn of shooting before smashing face; however the Landraider might get blasted apart in T1 and leave your boys walking. The scouting proteus guarantees progress up the board, and a scouting or out flanking primarch is a psychological weapon; however you have a smaller body guard unit, and that unit will almost certainly have to weather a round of shooting before combat.

 

I suppose all this just reinforces why the spartan with drakes is the best option! Still, I think the Landraider with pyro or command squad body guard is a nice alternative way to field vulkan in a smaller game, if that is your desire.

[Slips]

Hey, getting my brain working is always fun; brings out the hardcore WoW raider mentality in me for theorycrafting :P

 

For the Caestus; I agree its a very iffy situation and I'd err on the side of them NOT being able to get into one. A fluff justification is : why would we shuttle you through the void when we could send in some of your boys who'd willingly die for you so they could set up a Teleportation Beacon so that you can get from Point A to point B with no (barely) risk to yourself?

 

The Landraider situation is indeed an interesting one in that it adds variety and some variation in playstyle / list building. True, at 3k + you're pretty much forced to Field Vulkan + Boys in a Spartan because hell, it take a lot to take one down and even then you're likely to at least get 75% of the way to where you want to go if it dies. Also, other LoWs are a big concern.

 

I'd say its up to you; want a tough melee unit that is essentially forces your opponent to focus on it :

-Vulkan + Drakes + Spartan

 

You are a pyromaniac and want to represent it on the Table :

-Vulkan + 10 pryoclasts + Spartan with Heavy Flamers. Maybe another Spartan or other Land Raider with 10 more Pyroclasts if you have the points for it. EVERYTHING SHALL BURN!

 

A Fast(er) moving, smaller, but equally as tough of a unit to crack :

-Vulkan + Drakes + Proteus

 

A slower but more iffy to deal with but with a higher damage potential (actual range firepower with the option of melta) :

-Vulkan + Pyros + Phobos

[Malus Trux]

Page 4 of the FAQ from FW says that yes a primarch can fit in a Caestus Assault Ram but will take up 3 slots.

[caladancid]

Somewhat off-topic, but I cannot find anything on the subject....

 

Does anyone have a good painting guide for Salamanders' Skin? I am going to try and assemble Vulkan soon, and then I might begin to think about painting him. Any help would be appreciated.

[fission]

Just Google it calandancid , you will find it easily . ;)

[Ulfast]

Hello fellow Salamanders! I just started with my first HH army and it´s of course Salmander. I will start with a basic tactical squad and it will grow slowly.

 

But I was wondering if not pyroclasts in covenant of fires would be great objectiv holders? Just two small 5 units who hold objectiv in my part of the battlefield. Hopefull in cover and  should be pretty hard to get off those objectivs. Or what do you think?

[depthcharge12]

Hello fellow Salamanders! I just started with my first HH army and it´s of course Salmander. I will start with a basic tactical squad and it will grow slowly.

 

But I was wondering if not pyroclasts in covenant of fires would be great objectiv holders? Just two small 5 units who hold objectiv in my part of the battlefield. Hopefull in cover and  should be pretty hard to get off those objectivs. Or what do you think?

 

Now I'm not a salamander player, but here's my 2 cents.

 

Pyroclasts are more of an assault unit what with their load out and squad size. Having them defend an objective might not be points effective or tactically sound even with their flamers. They are more of a spearhead unit that blasts a hole for your other units to punch through and assault.

 

Having 5 man squads in 30k is near suicidal and points ineffective. The bonus you get in points drop for getting larger squads is in your favor :)

 

Unfortunately, the poor pyroclasts can be blasted off an objective by a volley from the ever present tactical blob, Scorpius, or mass volkites from a support or heavy squad.

 

 

I'd say to run them in a squad of 7 with an apothecary in a land raider proteus. This way you can scout forward to get closer to the enemy units to release your flame and melta weapons. The squad will be slightly larger and the apothecary will help to keep your guys around.

 

 

Use them to press a flank and support them with a tactical squad moving up. Pyroclasts burn a unit off, tacticals move up and grab objective, pyroclasts move on to next unit. Rinse, repeat.

[fission]

I would use Pyroclast to claim/attack the objectives of the ennemy better than keep yours. For example with a Tactic Unit which follow them to keep the point .

 

Personnaly I usually don't like to have expensive unit which don't move or keep moving .

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I have a vaguely related question.

 

I am building up my Adamantium Coconut, but I wish to provide my Firedrakes with the heavy flamer.

 

How do you guys do your non SS/TH Drakes? The standard FW models have only one option, do you simply attach a Cataphractii heavy flamer? Are the arm poses suitable for such an addition?

 

It will just look so jarring to have 4 beautiful Firedrakes and one plain Cataphractii with a heavy flamer.