Best Builds for MoT Sorcerers/Lords?

[ChaosReigns]

Hey guys, I'm putting together a sizeable Thousand Sons contingent for my Black Legion army, and I hope (eventually) to upgrade as time and budget allows until I have a full Thousand Sons/Tzeentch host that I can field independently of my Black Legionnaires.

 

Presently in the HQ department I have Ahriman and a couple Tzeentchian Daemon Princes, but obviously these guys aren't necessarily going to be entirely practical in smaller games, and of course it's always nice to have different options when you're building an army list. So, with that in mind, what are your favourite builds for Lords and Sorcerers of Tzeentch?

 

Judging by some of the threads in this forum, Disc of Tzeentch is considered to be a solid option for a MoT Sorcerer, and understandably so. How do you guys kit out your Disc Sorcerers?

 

Secondly, while the Scrolls of Magnus are not, I would think, an overly competitive option, they do look like a great deal of fun. Is it more worthwhile to put the Scrolls on a Lord or a Sorcerer? Do Chaos Lords have a place in a Thousand Sons army at all?

 

Finally, are there any solid builds for Sorcerers besides the Disc route? Do you guys ever attach Sorcerers to your squads of Thousand Sons (say, for some psychic support and a bit of extra kick in melee)?

 

I'm a total noob when it comes to Thousand Sons, and I find that it always helps to get the advice of people who know what they're doing before diving into list creation. Thanks guys!

[*Furyou Miko]

Personally, I like to put the Scrolls on a Warpsmith. He's got more character and fits better with the deviousness of Tzeentch than the Lord does, although I'll admit he's not the most game-effective of models (mostly because he costs twice what he should).

 

The thing with Ahriman vs a Sorcerer is that by the time you've kitted out a Sorcerer with mastery levels and wargear, he pretty much costs the same as Ahriman anyway.

 

That said, I've heard good things about the book from the Black Legion supplement granting a very nasty bolter-aura that really helps out with out horde problem.

[Excessus]

Indeed, the memories of whatever is a nice little thing, that gives an extra psychic level as well (you don't get to roll an extra power though, the AoE is the 4th power). Ahriman has a few advantages over regular sorcerers, mostly infiltration, lord stats and an extra psychic power. Imho, the extra roll on the tables is really something, 50% more than a regular MoT sorcerer!

 

If I had the points for it, I would most likely team up Ahriman with another sorcerer or a DP, but unfortunately when running Thousand Sons & Ahriman, points are pretty scarce...

[oreaper84]

Indeed the sorc on disc is one of the best ways to go (t5/3++/jetbike), but A-man has a lot of merit as well...just not in the tksons (if that isnt fluffy i dont know what is). I find it best to stick Ahriman in a cultist blob and be a forward support, or put him in a forward infiltrating combat unit as a buff/ cc support. If your looking to include the book of magnus i find it best either on a apostle or bike/disk lord. They get the most bang out of the item and ive found it quite useful in either case.

[ChaosReigns]

Alright, good to know. Thanks for the information. :)

 

On a related note, would you guys be inclined to put Ahriman in a squad of Cultists with autoguns or not? I suppose CCW/autopistol Cultists kept near the "front lines", so to speak, might be used to intercept any melee units intent on tying up one's Thousand Sons. On the flip side it seems like it would be good for the Cultists to be doing something besides dying on Ahriman's behalf while they're waiting for an opponent's squad to get close.

[Architect]

Ahriman in Cultists is a waste because you cannot control him being within 12" range for 3x Witchfires.

[Excessus]

I have this strange fantasy of running Ahriman with a squad of termies with combi-plasmas and such, but I never find the points for it... :(

[ChaosReigns]

Alright, fair enough, no Cultists then.

What would you guys suggest by way of an optimal bodyguard unit for Ahriman?

[Architect]

It's not about bodyguard.. it's about dealing enough damage on arrival in order to not even be shot back. 

 

For example:

 

1. Ahriman, 5 Havocs with Plasma Gun x4 and Tzeentch allies (a combination of Fateweaver or Tz Herald who rolls Scryer's Gaze and Screamers)

2. Ahriman arrives successfully with Havocs thanks to either FW's Re-roll or Scryer's Gaze and absolutely shreds an entire Terminator/Centurians/Whatever unit

3. Screamers/Chaos Spawn/Heldrakes take care of nearby units that are a threat to Ahriman by either charging or blasting

4. Ahriman sits in the open with only 5 havoc bodies to protect him, but doesnt even suffer fire anyways because your army is built to draw fire away from him by a variety of methods

 

Not always perfect, but the key to using Ahriman is to have many high-threat units that are either hard to kill (MoN Spawn, Grimoire'd Fateweaver or Screamers) or deal enough damage to help Ahriman wipe the field (2x Heldrakes, allied DPs)

[Ethrion]

I've run Ahriman in a block of 22 cultists as a home objective holding unit that is fearless because of him. I'm not saying this is the best way of deploying Ahriman but it's an option. I like the choices above a lot too. 

[ChaosReigns]

Okay, so my Thousand Sons detachment is just about ready to go and I'm going to be playing my first game with them in the next couple days against a friend's Crimson Fists.

 

As such, I re-read the psyker rules (as the game is going to be 1,750 points I'll be fielding Ahriman) and I was wondering - if Ahriman were to manifest three witchfire powers in a single shooting phase do they have to be three different powers or can he manifest the same power multiple times? Between the codex and the rule book Ahriman's case seems somewhat ambiguous.

[Excessus]

Three different ones.

[ChaosReigns]

Okay, so I had my first game with Thousand Sons, which went rather well. Thanks for the advice guys.

 

I just had one more quick and somewhat incidental rules question, for anyone who might know. In Codex: Chaos Space Marines when it says in a unit's entry- "The Aspiring Champion may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons sections of the wargear list." if you go to that wargear section in the book it actuallys gives some variation of ~a model may replace one weapon with the following. In the Space Marines book it actually doesn't say anything like that, except with regards to chainswords oddly, so (if, for example) a Sergeant was to purchase a plasma pistol would he still have all of his weapons?

 

My opponent assumed weapon replacement was required, but neither of us really noticed the lack of "weapon replacement" phrases until yesterday.

[Excessus]

The Space Marine wargear list states exactly what you need to replace to purchase a weapon from the list, just like the CSM codex...

 

The sergeant comes with a bolter + bolt pistol. He can switch out either for a free chainsword. He can also choose to switch a pistol (bolt pistol) and/or a melee weapon (chainsword) for a plasma pistol.

 

In the case of the plasma pistol, he can have one of three combinations. Either Boltgun + plasma pistol, plasma pistol + chainsword, or plasma pistol + bolt pistol.

[Jolemai]

How did you do?

[ChaosReigns]

Thanks Excessus, much appreciated.

The first game we played - exceedingly well. It was a crushing victory for Chaos.

Unfortunately, the second game my buddy's Crimson Fists returned the favour. Both games were effectively over by the end of turn 2, which I think bespeaks (among other things) the fact that the losing player in both games was, on the relevant occasion, fielding a relatively ill-conceived army list.

In any case, hopefully my explanations aren't too terribly long-winded.

In the first game, I fielded six Mark of Nurgle Obliterators, as I had never used that unit before (perhaps unbelievably) and, additionally, I suspected that they would be an effective counter to my friend's penchant for fielding AV 14 and Kantor with a bodyguard of Terminators.

-My friend rushed me with a Land Raider Redeemer full of Terminators (as expected) and dumped a Drop Pod (with deathwind missile launcher) behind my lines. An Ironclad disembarked from the Drop Pod and promptly ate three multi-melta shots from one nearby squad of Obliterators. Suffice it to say that the Ironclad didn't make back its points, having slain only two Rubric Marines between its two heavy flamers. Ahriman and a unit of Tzeentch Terminators combi-melta'd the Crimson Fists' Redeemer to death, with lascannons (from a Land Raider, Chaos Pred and the other squad of Oblits) making short work of most of the Terminators within.

-The next turn, one squad of Obliterators proceeded to delete almost an entire unit of Sternguard with three plasma cannons despite their 4+ cover save. The other squad similarly hosed a group Tacs, while the bolter fire of my two squads of Thousand Sons took out a few more Marines. The rushing unit now consisted of only one Terminator and a Chaplain, both of whom bit the dust in close combat when my own Terms assaulted. That 4+ invuln is actually pretty solid - it saved two of my Terms from power fist attacks. Anyway, Ahriman slew the Chaplain in a challenge and we called it a game, as I'd only lost seven Rubrics and my buddy was down about half his points.

Game 2 then:

My friend evidently learned from his mistakes very quickly. He asked me if I wanted to play another game a couple days later and I agreed, this time at 2000 up from 1750. This time he fielded a list that very much played to his chapter tactics (props to him for that) being approximately-

-Kantor
-Chapter Master w/ the Primarch's Wrath (which ended up being bloody nasty for 20 points, contrary to my expectations).
-2 squads of Tacs, plasma gun, plasma cannon.
-1 squad of Scouts w/ snipers and a heavy bolter w/ Hellfire rounds.
-1 squad of 10 Sternguard, to which was attached the Chapter Master, that ended up holding a ruin near the middle of the board.
-1 squad of 10 (IIRC) Sternguard with meltas and combi-meltas up the wazoo, joined by Kantor and podded down behind my lines.
-2 squads of Devs, one w/ 2 missile launchers, 2 lascannons, another w/ 3 missile launchers and a plasma cannon IIRC.
-1 nondescript Venerable Dreadnought w/ a twin-linked lascannon and power fist guarding his Devs that abruptly died on turn 2 having achieved nothing.
-1 Whirlwind Scorpius.

Unfortunately for me, my opponent had quite literally no fun in the last game, unsurprisingly, so I figured I'd scale back this time around and not take any Oblits. In addition, my list was thrown together, to say the least, as we played the game more or less on a whim, although he'd prepared his list ahead of time.

I took:

-Ahriman
-2 units of Thousand Sons, 9 models each including the Sorcerers.
-1 unit of four Tzeentch Terminators embarked in a Chaos Land Raider w/ Ahriman.
-2 units of Cultists, 20 model each. One squad w/ CCW and pistols, the other w/ autoguns.
-Defiler
-Vindicator
-Vindicator
-6 Nurgle Bikers that I threw in as an afterthought to make up the points.

I got first turn, and managed to infiltrate both squads of Rubrics, who were within rapid fire range for the first shooting phase. Both Sorcs rolled Boon of Mutation, which I switched out for Tzeentch's Firestorm because, y'know, at least I can use that. I got some good powers from Ahriman (Breath of Chaos, Endurance, Life Leech and I swapped out another power for Smite). Other than that, however, I rolled horribly. Highlights include all three of my large blasts scattering off their targets entirely on the first turn, one Sorc's Firestorm rolling strength 7 and then scattering off its target altogether (of course) and my buddy passing an inordinate number of 5+ cover saves that effectively meant that my two squads of Thousand Sons killed all of five Tacs between them (go to the bank with that one guys) even with rapid fire and Tzeentch's Firestorm. The only blast that didn't scatter off the target and score no hits at all was the other Sorcerer's Firestorm, which, as one might expect, ended up being strength 2...

His turn, Kantor podded in with his Sternguard and trashed my Defiler (no surprise there - even with its 5+ invuln and Daemonic Possession, only three of the Sternguard were firing bolters IIRC - the rest were either meltas or combi-meltas). Both Vindicators were destroyed by my opponent's tank hunting Devs in one round of shooting. I managed to fail seven 3+ saves in a row with my Thousand Sons, as well as some 4+ saves from his plasma and Scorpius. The six Nurgle Bikers were blown down by my opponent's other squad of Sternguard w/ Chapter Master in one round of shooting with the 2+ to wound bolter rounds, despite the Champion rolling Bloated (so he had 2 wounds) thanks to Gift of Mutation. To add insult to injury almost all of my buddy's blasts (his plasma cannons, deathwind and Scorpius - he never had the opportunity to use his two orbital bombardments) either rolled direct hits or scattered a negligible amount, one or two inches at most. One direct hit from his deathwind killed something like sixteen Cultists in one turn despite cover.

My only consolation was that Ahriman ended up being a total tank in that game. If it weren't for him the outcome would have been entirely humiliating. On turn 2, which I played only because of a (perhaps misplaced) sense of duty, my Terminators fired at Kantor and his Sternguard, achieving absolutely nothing even with rapid fire and some rerolls to hit. However, in a fit of a*s-kicking, Ahriman wiped the entire squad single-handedly - annihilating all of the Sternguard between Smite and Breath of Chaos (although he did take a wound thanks to Perils) and slaying Pedro Kantor in single combat (by way of his force staff's instant death). So yeah, that was pretty awesome, the rest of the game, not so much.

While that second game was truly terrible, it did, I think, illustrate some important lessons for future battles against the Crimson Fists. I'll give my thoughts and considerations on the games a bit later (for scrutiny, of course). That said, this post is already too long as it is.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

A load out I am curious about trying (and may model anyway) is a sorcerer with an old metal keg style jump pack with force sword and possibly another power weapon (better one terminator load outs I know) has anyone had any luck running sorcerers with small (or large) units of raptors?

[zyl-]

A load out I am curious about trying (and may model anyway) is a sorcerer with an old metal keg style jump pack with force sword and possibly another power weapon (better one terminator load outs I know) has anyone had any luck running sorcerers with small (or large) units of raptors?

Raptors?  ..   I think people use bikes quite a bit, and depending on the psyker powers, I could see warp talons being retarded (with invisibility). Raptors actually seem rather middle of the road on those two extremes imo.