RW Command Squad or RW Black Knights?

[Kimbaras]

Hey guys! First post here!

So let's get to the question: as title is better a RW command squad or a 5 men rw black knights squad?

 

For 235 points i get a RW Command Squad with 3 knights, 1 apothecary, 1 champion.

So the squad will have 4 plasma talons, 1 grenade launcher

4 corvus hammers and a blade with S +1 Ap 3 Unwieldy

FNP

 

For a black knights squad of the same size (5 men) i get a cost of 222 points with

4 palsma talons, 1 grenad launcher

4 corvus hammers and a power sword/power maul which is S user Ap 3/ S +2 Ap 4 concussive...

 

So the ranged section is the same, the CC one changes a bit and i lose FNP, oh and i lose +1 WS on the champion...

 

What's the best in your opinion?

Usually i run the command squad with a bike mounted librarian (usually with Mastery Level 2, but not always)

 

I'm open for advices as this guys will be running in a 1750 tournament list (starting this weekend) and usually i like to run some bikes and found that "normal" bikers most of the times aren't so effective...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

If you have the points, the command squad is better just because of the apothecary...

[Kimbaras]

Thanks for the reply!

Ye the points aren't the issue, as i've built the list with the command squad in mind, was checking the codex and found this, the black knights could give me 13 spare points i could put somewhere else.

On side note, would you take the champion or i could spend those 5 points better? As giving melta bombs to someone

[FerociousBeast]

The Command Squad is better because of the standard. Anything else is just gravy.

[FerociousBeast]

More specifically, if you have a bike-mounted HQ and you want a Black Knights squad, your first BKS should be a command squad. There's no downside to the RWCS like there is to the Deathwing Command Squad, since their competition, Black Knights, are never scoring units, and there are many upsides. They don't occupy a Fast Attack slot; they can (should) take a standard; they can take an apothecary; they can take a champion. All good things.

 

I suppose you could say that the one downside is that you can't take a Huntmaster w/ power weapon. Doesn't bother me too much.

[Master Avoghai]

I would say : both...

 

But only because I'm a big RWBK fan... :P

[SvenONE]

Like others have said, take the command squad if you are going to bring a banner of apothecary.  If you don't want those things, then a regular BK squad is fine, you can bring them to a full 10 if you feel so inclined.  You can give the huntmaster a power sword (sorry, no fist) that he can swing at initiative as opposed to the champion who is at I1 (ugh WHY GW, WHY).

 

If you have a bike HQ the command squad is good even at just the 3 of them and the apothecary (chaplan/libby) for extra wounds.  Too bad we haven't figured out how to put our company masters on bikes like our cousins.  The command squad with bike libby is probably as good as it can get.  The extra ML is a tossup, in my experience I've found 1 is good enough, but there are times that I wish I had 2.  Pyschic Shriek can actually get really good use on a bike librarian and if you can get invisibility that's even better.  Invisible Black Knights....MMMMMMMMMMmmmmm.

[Crazy Jay]

Can someone please clarify for me how a Ravenwing Command Squad can have more than 3 Black knights? I don't see anything in the entry about being able to add additional units. What am I missing here?

[Brother dean]

It is in the FAQ that GW released, Add an additional bla bla bla...

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018&section=&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&start=2&multiPageMode=true

[Crazy Jay]

Ok,

 

The FAQ that is stickied in the official rules forum has an outdated and does not have that entry. Thank you for posting an updated version.

[ValourousHeart]

Too bad we haven't figured out how to put our company masters on bikes like our cousins.

 

I hear that comment a lot, but I don't really get it.

 

Is that really all you want, just to have the option to put a master on a bike?  Or is it that you want the option to not take Sammie to have RW troops?

 

What would a master on a bike give you that Sammie doesn't?

 

Is that build not possible with a Lib or a Chap with better rules and/or fewer points?

 

And why don't we hear the same thing about TDA Master?

[Cactus]

Ok,

 

The FAQ that is stickied in the official rules forum has an outdated and does not have that entry. Thank you for posting an updated version.

 

Good spot. I've asked DarkGuard to update the link.

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

Too bad we haven't figured out how to put our company masters on bikes like our cousins.

I hear that comment a lot, but I don't really get it.

 

Is that really all you want, just to have the option to put a master on a bike? Or is it that you want the option to not take Sammie to have RW troops?

 

What would a master on a bike give you that Sammie doesn't?

 

Is that build not possible with a Lib or a Chap with better rules and/or fewer points?

 

And why don't we hear the same thing about TDA Master?

The price?

 

Sammy is 200 pts

Master on bike is something like 140 pts with a relic blade and a bike if not mistaken...

And actually contrary to Belial who secures the DS, Sammael doesn't really bring something huge on the battlefield (apart from additional troops choice they both bring)

[Brother dean]

 

 

 

Too bad we haven't figured out how to put our company masters on bikes like our cousins.

I hear that comment a lot, but I don't really get it.

 

Is that really all you want, just to have the option to put a master on a bike? Or is it that you want the option to not take Sammie to have RW troops?

 

What would a master on a bike give you that Sammie doesn't?

 

Is that build not possible with a Lib or a Chap with better rules and/or fewer points?

 

And why don't we hear the same thing about TDA Master?

The price?

 

Sammy is 200 pts

Master on bike is something like 140 pts with a relic blade and a bike if not mistaken...

And actually contrary to Belial who secures the DS, Sammael doesn't really bring something huge on the battlefield (apart from additional troops choice they both bring)

You REALLY have to be rolling bad if you have any misses with a TL assault cannon AND a TL heavy bolter @ BS5...  And lets review, How much to upgrade TL bolters for a TLAC and a TLHB?  How much to upgrade a TL bolter for a TL Storm Bolter or Plasma cannon on a Jetbike?  I think the costs are completely justified...

[FerociousBeast]

 

 

Too bad we haven't figured out how to put our company masters on bikes like our cousins.

I hear that comment a lot, but I don't really get it.

 

Is that really all you want, just to have the option to put a master on a bike? Or is it that you want the option to not take Sammie to have RW troops?

 

What would a master on a bike give you that Sammie doesn't?

 

Is that build not possible with a Lib or a Chap with better rules and/or fewer points?

 

And why don't we hear the same thing about TDA Master?

Well, for one because you CAN take a TDA master.

 

The master's not part of the Ravenwing! you say. Well, neither are chaplains or librarians. I want to be able to field a company master on bike, and I don't want him to unlock RAS as troops. It's just an option that's denied us for no good reason.

[Brother dean]

Ahh...  Well that is a different shade of grey...    I understand.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I wouldn't run the Champion due to the unwieldy weapon. Otherwise, the Command Squad allows for more versatility.

 

Or you could add an extra grenade launcher in the RWBK squad by adding another Biker.

[Brother dean]

The only upgrade I am inclined to run is the BoD.   MAYBE an Apoth but you can run without if you are running other wound denial units like the Dark Shroud...

 

Also..   whoever I stole this idea off of...  Thank you, Thank you, Thank you...  I now have a PFG to run right behind my Dark Shroud.

 

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/fred40k2002/The%20Ravenwing/DSCN9890.jpg

[march10k]

 

 

 

Too bad we haven't figured out how to put our company masters on bikes like our cousins.

I hear that comment a lot, but I don't really get it.

 

Is that really all you want, just to have the option to put a master on a bike? Or is it that you want the option to not take Sammie to have RW troops?

 

What would a master on a bike give you that Sammie doesn't?

 

Is that build not possible with a Lib or a Chap with better rules and/or fewer points?

 

And why don't we hear the same thing about TDA Master?

Well, for one because you CAN take a TDA master.

 

The master's not part of the Ravenwing! you say. Well, neither are chaplains or librarians. I want to be able to field a company master on bike, and I don't want him to unlock RAS as troops. It's just an option that's denied us for no good reason.

A master on a bike with artificer armor, a storm shield, and the mace of redemption=pure win.  The interrogator on a bike with similar kit is beastly, but with a pip more on the armor save, invulnerable save, and WS, the mind boggles. 

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Too bad we haven't figured out how to put our company masters on bikes like our cousins.

I hear that comment a lot, but I don't really get it.

 

Is that really all you want, just to have the option to put a master on a bike? Or is it that you want the option to not take Sammie to have RW troops?

 

What would a master on a bike give you that Sammie doesn't?

 

Is that build not possible with a Lib or a Chap with better rules and/or fewer points?

 

And why don't we hear the same thing about TDA Master?

The price?

 

Sammy is 200 pts

Master on bike is something like 140 pts with a relic blade and a bike if not mistaken...

And actually contrary to Belial who secures the DS, Sammael doesn't really bring something huge on the battlefield (apart from additional troops choice they both bring)

You REALLY have to be rolling bad if you have any misses with a TL assault cannon AND a TL heavy bolter @ BS5... And lets review, How much to upgrade TL bolters for a TLAC and a TLHB? How much to upgrade a TL bolter for a TL Storm Bolter or Plasma cannon on a Jetbike? I think the costs are completely justified...

I'm not saying the cost is unjustified.

 

I'm saying that you are paying for options that are not an army enhancer and that you don't necessarily want.

The plasma cannon is fine but you pay for a weapon that you find on any other DA model due to GW obesession with DA=plasma.

Jet bike itself is unuseful because he has skilled rider.

Adamantine mantle is there only because it comes from v5 and you couldn't join a unit at this time (not an IC) so it was necessary for him to survive... but now it's not THAT necessary (everybody would prefer EW on Belial).

 

And finally, it's a named character and you find event that that forbid named characters because they want to preserve the event from OP characters like Abbadon or Eldrad.

 

So I'm not saying that Sammel's cost isn't fine... I'm just saying that sometimes you have balanced options you don't want to take...

[Cactus]

I wouldn't run the Champion due to the unwieldy weapon. Otherwise, the Command Squad allows for more versatility.

 

Upgrading to the champion gives you the possibility of precision shots. With plasma talons. I think that's worth considering for 5 points, even with the unimpressive sword.

[Master Avoghai]

I'm with Cactus on this one. Moreover, with E5 and apoc he's much more likely to survive.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

 

I wouldn't run the Champion due to the unwieldy weapon. Otherwise, the Command Squad allows for more versatility.

 

Upgrading to the champion gives you the possibility of precision shots. With plasma talons. I think that's worth considering for 5 points, even with the unimpressive sword.

 

I disagree that its such a great advantage...but we can agree to disagree. The Apothecary, too, can precision shot and his other advantages are useful unlike the Champions. If I had 5 points, I'd consider it but there are other things it could be spent on.

[Master Avoghai]

It's not a great advantage... But it's not the disadvantage you seem to say.

 

Sure your apoc can also make precision shots but that means you can have 3 potential precision shots/per turn (champ, IC and apoc).

Having the champ can also mean prevent your apoc to be challenged

 

Like I've said the non usefulness is very situational.

Against unit without champion or with a champ not tailored for CC, he's useful.

Against champ with unwieldy weapon, he's useful.

To accept the challenge of the big deamon prince with zillions of A that would ripped off your entire squad he's useful.

To kill normal troopers while Sammy or your chappy with mass kill the enemy champion in challenge he's useful.

 

So what you say is

Because there may be a case of your extremely mobile squad being engaged with an enemy you didn't want to engage(paradoxal) and your IC is not with your RWCS, you are challenged by an enemy character with S5+ or a special rule like poison or re roll to wound and AP3, but not more than 4A and a 2+ save, then it doesn't justify investing 5pts...

 

Because actually it's the only case where I see the champion unuseful... :unsure:

[Kimbaras]

Thanks everyone for the replies! Think I'm going with the command squad then!

one last thing, usually my bike mounted Libby uses prescience and psychic shriek (usually), would you run him the same or you prefer (if the dice is with you) others powers?