Custom decals/transfers and white ink -- Vinyl sticker fail.

[JeffTibbetts]

After hijacking another thread I decided that this needed its own. I was talking and thinking about my custom decals and lamenting the fact that I have a white chapter badge on a bright green field when I decided to get serious. 

 

I did some searching around, and then decided just to call a few print shops. I was discouraged after calling the 'big' places first. They said it couldn't be done. And then I called a sign company that also does print jobs, and the guy says they can print white! I'm trying really hard not to get my hopes up because it can't be this easy, right? 

 

I explained that I was trying to make custom decals (I'm in the states) and that I had my own paper I'd like to use. He said they use an Arizona printer, which looks like a massive, horizontal affair. It uses special inks that heat cures and uses UV light. I have NO idea if that's going to work with my clear decal paper. I have the Testors brand stuff and frankly I'm pretty sure it sucks but it's all I could find locally. After they print it, assuming it survives, I will probably have to spray it.

 

At least, that's what I did for my other decals. I used, I think, just regular gloss spray varnish on my others, and it's pretty caustic. The first coat deformed the edges of some of the decals when the spray got a little thick. Once that first light coat was down it was fine. I have no idea how this new ink is going to react to the spray so I will be testing it out and experimenting if I need to. 

 

If this works, I can not BELIEVE I never really looked into it before, nor really heard about anyone doing it. That makes me think it won't work, because hope is the first step on the road to disappointment and all that. 

 

Anyone else tried going to a print shop, UV ink or any of that? 

[Fibonacci]

Why not just use white decal paper?  Rather, white film instead of clear.

 

Here's an example.  White decal paper is fairly common though.

http://www.micromark.com/white-decal-paper-for-ink-jet-and-laser-printers-and-copiers-5-sheets,7945.html

 

I also ran across this when looking for white ink printers.

http://www.alps-printer.com/refurbished-alps-md1300-md1300-white-waterslide-metallic-decal-hobby-printer-88co141h-low-band-count-6382-p-5493.html

It is probably more than you want to spend but it shows what is available and sort of how it works.

[JeffTibbetts]

Thanks for the reply! I didn't see those printers on the market, but man they are expensive… 

 

As for as the other comment… I do use white paper right now. And it sucks.

 

With a white badge, I had to try and match the green ink from my printer to the paint (pretty much impossible) and then print the white with a green border. Not only is that lame, but with the white paper you're actually putting a thin sheet of white paper on the model, plus your ink. With a clear paper, the backing film is very thin and almost dissolves with chemicals. It's really hard to get white ones to not look like you straight up glued a piece of paper on your model. I try really hard and I can minimize it, but man does it take a lot of effort and sometimes you just can't get rid of that border even after painting over it. It makes me sad. 

[JeffTibbetts]

I got a call from the print shop, and while they had some problems printing there is one sheet that he said looked "great" and another that was okay except the edges warped, I guess. I'll see if there are some on that sheet that I can use. If nothing else, I'll probably use the ones that didn't turn out to test the top coat spray and whatnot.

Still crossing my fingers! Pics coming probably tonight!

EDIT: Instead of triple posting, here are the decals…

As you can see, they didn't turn out.

The bad: I zoomed in here, but you can see the shop printed them with a thin border, or 'stroke' around the outsides. That pretty much makes them useless to me. I sent the art with no border, and the printer was totally cool and took me back to his station to see why it was doing that. We couldn't figure out why, but when we pulled in the original it was clear, and then the border was added when he loaded it into other software. On top of that, the ink takes on a very slightly metallic/pearlescent/reflective sheen in the processing. This may or may not go away when I add top coat to seal it and / or matte varnish. I will run some tests with these ones, border and all. because if the white doesn't look good we may as well not bother messing around with trying again. I have some other misgivings as well because it looks to me like the fidelity of the edge isn't where I'd like it anyway.

The good: the guys at the shop were very interested in experimenting and getting this to work. In fact, one of them is a scale modeler and he might be as pumped about this as I am. Plus, since it wasn't to my satisfaction they didn't even charge me for them! That's pretty cool and makes me really want to get it fixed so I can give them my business. Really glad I at least tried, even if it doesn't work out. At this point, I'm out 4 pieces of decal paper. I'll live.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Any place that does screen printing can do the white for you as well.

[JeffTibbetts]

@ Kurgan, you're brilliant! I called a buddy of mine that does it for a living and sure enough, the technique has gotten good enough that they can pull that off now. I'm giving this print shop one more chance, but I'll be hitting him up next. 

 

Update: Did a test with the transfers last night and the good news is the weird sheen did in fact go away. Looking at them, though, it's clear that the white looks a bit rough. I think, even if they get rid of the border it will still look too fuzzy for proper decals. Shame. 

[Subtle Discord]

Ok, now that I have a moment, I wanted to toss in my $0.02 on the subject. I've researched doing custom Black Legion decals, and I think I've got a good idea how serious model builders do them. As mentioned, the second hand printer shown earlier in the thread is the key; those are one of the kids of printers that can print White, Gold, Silver, and do them in layers without disturbing background details. From what I've read, you want to find a company that does decals and will use this process.

 

First, if you want a deeper insight into just what a 'proper' decal is, and what should be done to make top-notch decals, read Design your own Alps/OKI Custom Decal. the information is a bit dense, but it really is worth reading at least the top part which talks about making the decals on the computer for print, and the considerations you should make. In a nutshell you'll need to use very specific layers and colours, and it is best to use a Vector based imaging software such as Adobe Illustrator for constructing the decal sheets. If you make a proper Vector based image it will scale 100% perfectly to any size you want; make one icon perfect then stretch and re-size and duplicate as desired. The improvement in print quality is profound; I recently started using Vector imaging and it really is amazing. You can use a more traditional Raster based image (Photoshop), but be sure the resolution is very high so it can scale well; more is better - you can always take away, but you can't add resolution.

 

Once you've made a sheet you'll want to find a custom decal printing company. There might be someone in your city/area, but odds are you'll need to dig online. There are lots of printers out there, but not every one does every process. Decals on this scale need someone who understands the Alps/OKI process, hopefully at this scale. The two I found were Bel Decal - who appear to specialize in decals of every sort, including models, and Samuel Decal - who does decals mostly for anime/gundam/mech, but I'm sure they would do any images.

 

I'm pretty sure if you take the time to go this rout you'll get proper clean opaque white decals that are crisp and have zero outline. If you want you could even add some company/squad/role/rank images/shapes/icons to the background or edges; this printing process will get you clean layers. Even think about doing some large banner images along one side of a decal sheet. If you fit things right you could have 100 should pad decals, dozes of vehicle size decals and 4-6 larger banners all placed on one decal sheet. Maybe even more. Price is a consideration (I haven't looked too deeply at priec) since this is custom work; but even $50+ (pure speculation) for one sheet that could last years seems reasonable to me. I've spent more on glue in the last year. :)

 

I really want to do some custom decals and document the process with an article, but I need to get my army to that point first. Hopefully soon'ish.

[JeffTibbetts]

@Subtle, thanks for the meaty reply. Yeah, I've been looking a lot more deeply into options. I do all my art in Illustrator as is, and this is essential to the precess. I'm a very details-oriented guy (aren't we all, in this hobby?) and I would NOT be okay with visible pixels anywhere near my stuff.

 

I talked to my buddy about screen printing at length last night. He feels confident that he could get those lines looking crisp and clear via screen printing. I believe him to an extent. If it comes right down to it and I strike out with his method, I am going to bite the bullet and look into ALPS/OKI, but I am loathe to spend the money.

 

I'd almost rather buy one and start a custom decal service because it seems like the market is underserved, but that's quite an investment. If we do that, I would so totally work out some work trade with you to get some of your absolutely stunning bits. STUNNING! 

[JeffTibbetts]

I'm necro-ing my own post because I've had a break. I ran out of decal sheets before so I put everything on hold. I got some more, and now I'm looking into getting the decals done again. I talked to some folks at a scale model store, and it turns out at least two of them have ALPS printers! One flat-out said he doesn't do custom jobs. The other said that he would look into it and asked me to bring him in a file. He uses Word and PageMaker to lay them out (ugh… Just, no…) so I tried to find a good way to do those. I finally just asked him if I can do a PDF and he said probably, so I'm going to bring him a thumb drive and a couple sheets of clear paper. He seems like he kinda knows what's up, but I am trying not to get my hopes up. He will do it pretty cheaply from the sounds of it. Maybe $5-10 per sheet. I use small sheets of Testors paper, which sucks, but it's easy to buy and it supports the shop where he works so I figure it's the best option. 

 

He only works a few days a week so I'll have to wait til Monday, but this might actually be the easiest way to do it. Wish me luck, and remember that I'll be more than happy to share results if this works. :D Who knows, maybe he will be willing to do more for other folks if it's easy money for him. 

[Forté]

Covering costs and time will be what he'll be thinking. Shame the other guy was an ass.

 

This is an interesting topic too and I'm sure there's lots of lurkers making notes.

[JeffTibbetts]

Okay. Another Necromantic update. After over 2 months the guy FINALLY got back to me. I'm excited and disappointed at the same time. First, the results:

I still have a couple wrinkles in there. Bear with me. Overall I think it turned out pretty well. The smaller ones on the sheet seem like they've lost some detail, but I'll wait til I can see them well. I only had time to try this one out. This has had a couple hits of Micro Sol and I'll probably do a couple more. Sorry the pic kind of sucks. I'll post more when I get going, but I wanted to continue my rant:

So, a couple things irritated me (and confirmed that I want to get the cash to start doing custom work for other folks).

First, he ended up using his own paper and sprayed it with Testors Dull Coat I think it was. And he charged me for that. I gave him my own paper to use on purpose and I wanted to spray them myself to try a couple options. I figured this would keep costs down, and help me understand the process better as I like to do that stuff. I've done it a few other times, so it's not the end of the world, but I've never gotten to play with this ALPS ink. He told me that my sheet used up a third of an ink cartridge. Are you kidding me? I'm 90% sure that was a bald-faced lie. I can't say for certain, because I've mostly been looking at the OKI printers and toner. So, he ended up charging me $20 for the paper and the ink and everything. I paid it, and being a generally polite and non-confrontational person, I didn't complain to him. I'll never go back to him, though. 2 months to do the work and then charging that much? No thank you.

Second, the dude can't spray! There are bits of dust and a couple of hairs stuck in the top coat. That makes me really mad. I am ever exceptionally careful with this stuff, and I truly could have done a better job. What makes me mad isn't that he did this in the first place, it's that I told him not to and he never asked me about the paper thing or spraying it. I would have told him not to do both. Ugh.

At any rate, I now have some white transfers and will get to work playing around with them. I am still looking for a better solution, but this is def proof of concept that it can be done.

[Shadespyre]

It's another step in the right direction! Keep us posted please :D

[Aqui]

I hadn't seen this topic

I'm sorry you haven't had a lot of luck getting further with your project, but the evidence above at least shows that it's not impossible to do them

[JeffTibbetts]

Thanks for the sympathy vote. Had a good chat with my buddy who does screen printing. We're going to give that a try just to see what happens, but really I'm trying to convince him to either go in on a printer with me or just get one himself.

[Storm Warden]

Hey I just stumbled on your thread.  I love the idea of custom decals.  I briefly looked into it myself without much luck.  Any more news in your effort to come out with good custom decals?  Let me know!

[JeffTibbetts]

Hey I just stumbled on your thread.  I love the idea of custom decals.  I briefly looked into it myself without much luck.  Any more news in your effort to come out with good custom decals?  Let me know!

 

I wish I could say I have great news. I don't really. I've talked to a friend of mine that does screen printing about trying that, and about maybe getting a white printer, but he hasn't really gotten back to me so I'd say he's either too busy or not very keen. I also talked to another friend who wants to start doing his own t-shirts (the printers are also good for that) and he was interested, but he's broke like me. 

 

If I had the startup investment cash I would do it tomorrow. I have most of the things I need and a business plan, but I can't really afford a hit to my credit right now since I'm buying a house this Friday. 

 

Anyone want to loan me around 5 grand to start up? ;) 

[Shadespyre]

Oh dear. I just came back hoping that all my decal problems were sorted and nothing has happened in the last few months. I've been trying to design shoulder badges based on easily trimmable squares rather than circles (so that white-backed decals would work better) but I and am not happy with the results. If only I'd painted my two-colour marines with the pale colour on the other side!

 

It does seem strange that there's a market that no-one is addressing - perhaps it is the sheer cost of the printers. If it was more like $1000 i'd be all over it.

[JeffTibbetts]

Oh dear. I just came back hoping that all my decal problems were sorted and nothing has happened in the last few months. I've been trying to design shoulder badges based on easily trimmable squares rather than circles (so that white-backed decals would work better) but I and am not happy with the results. If only I'd painted my two-colour marines with the pale colour on the other side!

 

It does seem strange that there's a market that no-one is addressing - perhaps it is the sheer cost of the printers. If it was more like $1000 i'd be all over it.

 

Like I said, if the cost to start wasn't so high I too would be all over it. I've already convinced my fiancé to do it, but I don't have thousands laying about. Doing a kickstarter-like thing has crossed my mind, but I'm not sure about it. I'd just get a small loan if I thought the work would be regular enough to pay for itself. I'm concerned that it wouldn't be, though. I tried to gauge support here on the forum, and there are some interested parties, but I dunno if it's enough to keep it running until the machine is paid off. 

 

But seriously, I'd LOVE to do it, or even find someone else doing it who isn't a muppet and could produce good work. 

[GhostLegion]

sadly (or not I guess depending on how you look at this) the problem you are really facing is the lack of good thermal subduction printers on the market.  For several years there were two or three companies (read hobby stores, FLGS) that would take a raster image (typically) and 1-3 colors and they would print up a full 8x11 sheet for you for a nominal (read very reasonable) fee.  Gryphon Games was the main one I used to use and recall having very good service.  However, and most unfortunately, the printer they used...well...the company that made it stopped supporting and making that printer (thermaltake if I recall...if not correct for company, the printer was an alps md 5000), its parts, and the ink also became unreasonably hard to find.  yes, this was a rare machine which printed white as a true color, not the absence of coloring on a white sheet.  all that said, it has made obtaining custom decals with white elements rather ....difficult...to obtain.  maybe silk screening can come up with similar product, but I don't know about that much.  I do know the value of thermal subduction printing....unfortunately that class of printer is rather hard to find...maybe someone has better luck than I do though.....

 

sometimes you can see one pop up on ebay...  including ink supply...  but the price last time I looked was more than I wanted to deal with.

[JeffTibbetts]

sadly (or not I guess depending on how you look at this) the problem you are really facing is the lack of good thermal subduction printers on the market.  For several years there were two or three companies (read hobby stores, FLGS) that would take a raster image (typically) and 1-3 colors and they would print up a full 8x11 sheet for you for a nominal (read very reasonable) fee.  Gryphon Games was the main one I used to use and recall having very good service.  However, and most unfortunately, the printer they used...well...the company that made it stopped supporting and making that printer (thermaltake if I recall...if not correct for company, the printer was an alps md 5000), its parts, and the ink also became unreasonably hard to find.  yes, this was a rare machine which printed white as a true color, not the absence of coloring on a white sheet.  all that said, it has made obtaining custom decals with white elements rather ....difficult...to obtain.  maybe silk screening can come up with similar product, but I don't know about that much.  I do know the value of thermal subduction printing....unfortunately that class of printer is rather hard to find...maybe someone has better luck than I do though.....

 

sometimes you can see one pop up on ebay...  including ink supply...  but the price last time I looked was more than I wanted to deal with.

Yup. Those are ALPS printers you're talking about. They're out of bidness, but there's a new company called OKI that does them with the same tech. They're current, but very expensive. That's what I'd be buying if I could afford it.

[GhostLegion]

interesting.  may have to look into OKI then myself....

 

and as to transfer paper, yes, testors brand is generally available in the us.  having used it recently and with acceptable results, I would highly recommend waiting 20-30 minutes after printing before touching (yes, this sounds long, but safe at least) and then I highly recommend a double coat of gloss varnish before you try to work with the sheet.  after that setup the transfers work well enough....though microset and microsol do help dramatically.  if youre stuck on white as your color, id try a light grey or bone type color set on clear or white paper....just be ready for heavy trimming (though If I read you right you've already enjoyed the cutting).  now, there are other transfer sheet suppliers out there, some up to a3 size paper.  last time I looked, I found some online associated with rc cars and model railroading.  I wish I could give websites or manufacturer names, but I suspect that bit of info should get you in the right direction (if you didn't find those already mind).  it is also important to remember the testors brand transfer paper is ....well thick really.  other suppliers are not quite so thick...and some work better in the standard inkjet than youd expect.  again, its been nigh on 10 years since I went looking for transfer paper, but im rather certain its easy enough to find....again, good luck

[JeffTibbetts]

interesting.  may have to look into OKI then myself....

 

and as to transfer paper, yes, testors brand is generally available in the us.  having used it recently and with acceptable results, I would highly recommend waiting 20-30 minutes after printing before touching (yes, this sounds long, but safe at least) and then I highly recommend a double coat of gloss varnish before you try to work with the sheet.  after that setup the transfers work well enough....though microset and microsol do help dramatically.  if youre stuck on white as your color, id try a light grey or bone type color set on clear or white paper....just be ready for heavy trimming (though If I read you right you've already enjoyed the cutting).  now, there are other transfer sheet suppliers out there, some up to a3 size paper.  last time I looked, I found some online associated with rc cars and model railroading.  I wish I could give websites or manufacturer names, but I suspect that bit of info should get you in the right direction (if you didn't find those already mind).  it is also important to remember the testors brand transfer paper is ....well thick really.  other suppliers are not quite so thick...and some work better in the standard inkjet than youd expect.  again, its been nigh on 10 years since I went looking for transfer paper, but im rather certain its easy enough to find....again, good luck

 

Oh, maybe you missed it since it was in another thread. I actually went through a pretty involved testing phase with these and tried pretty much everything you've suggested. This kick with OKI and ALPS printers came after I'd tested many different methods. I have no problem with Testors paper itself, it's just the white thing really. And incidentally, I found that Dull Kote works better than their gloss, which is much thicker. I tried spraying many different ways, and my preference is two light coats of Testors Dull, and then Microset and Microsol to place them. 

 

Thanks for your help, though. And do let me know if you decide to get a printer. I guarantee there are at least a dozen orders just waiting for you (including mine!). 

[JeffTibbetts]

Cross one more option of the list for white 'decals.' Vinyl stickers do not work.

Just for fun, a buddy offered to make my chapter logo as vinyl stickers to see how small they could cut. They got a new blade in there and gave it their best shot. While the results were not exactly stellar, I thought it'd be worth posting one so you could see for yourself if you're thinking about trying it.

I As you can see, no matter how sharp the blade there are always some little imperfections. On a car, guitar, laptop or whatever, you never really notice them. On something as small as a mini, they'd be noticeable. This was about the smallest that still came out alright.

So I put one on my Mac. Because why not? It looks pretty boss, actually. Be better if it weren't white, but I didn't have them made for this purpose so whatevs.

And here's a shot for scale. And yes, that's a Ticonderoga Black. I love these things.

So, yeah. It's pretty small and not too bad, but it's not really good enough to use on a model. Maybe on a vehicle or something, it could work. I'll keep them around and see if I can get one to work in that context.

[NovemberIX]

Part of the problem with tearing might be more the material than anything specific to the design. I'm not sure what material was used for your stuff, but we've had great results using 3M 1080 to cut out some fairly intricate and fine script (cursive on the outer bezel of BMW logos, scaled between hubcaps, body emblems and the steering wheel emblem).

 

That being said, you're 100% correct in vinyl not being the right material for the job. To get a good lay you need lots of heat, especially on complex or compound curves (much like a space marine shoulder pad) enough that it will distort plastic of resin, not to speak of the vinyl itself. And of course you'll always have that sticker on a figure look because the edges will stick out and possibly bubble up.

 

I can think of a few places that could work, especially if you use the vinyl as a mask, like vehicles, banners, buildings, Queen Bee's carapace and shoulders, a display base.

[JeffTibbetts]

Part of the problem with tearing might be more the material than anything specific to the design. I'm not sure what material was used for your stuff, but we've had great results using 3M 1080 to cut out some fairly intricate and fine script (cursive on the outer bezel of BMW logos, scaled between hubcaps, body emblems and the steering wheel emblem).

 

That being said, you're 100% correct in vinyl not being the right material for the job. To get a good lay you need lots of heat, especially on complex or compound curves (much like a space marine shoulder pad) enough that it will distort plastic of resin, not to speak of the vinyl itself. And of course you'll always have that sticker on a figure look because the edges will stick out and possibly bubble up.

 

I can think of a few places that could work, especially if you use the vinyl as a mask, like vehicles, banners, buildings, Queen Bee's carapace and shoulders, a display base.

 

You sound like you know what you're talking about! :D I'm guessing this is your day job. I have no idea what sort of materials they used. I never actually talked to the person who did the print. It was more about curiosity over whether it could even work. But, I was thinking on a drop pod or something, what I'd do is put a sticker on, then probably go around the outside with at least CA glue or even a light wash of Liquid Green Stuff or Milliput slurry to sort of seal the edges and seep underneath them to kill the sticker look. I strongly suspect getting paint to stick to the surface would be a real bear. Banners could work too, but I think I'd want more designs for that and all I've got is a sticker, so I think I'd probably stick with decals for that. I hadn't thought of using the negative as a mask, but that would probably work very well, if I could somehow stiffen it up. 

 

You gave me some good ideas, man. Thanks for that. If I could print these out more easily I could see some other applications for it.