Unknown Chronicler Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 So taking a journey down Horus Heresy lane with the new Massacre book I decided to start a quest of creating 18 strike forces. Each legion will gain a glory but to make it interesting I wanted to pit a legion against its rival (loyalist vs. traitor), I wanted to ask everyone for help as I seem to not be able to complete my list and wanted to know which one you guys would think are the best suited against each other from what I already haven't figured out so the list follows: Ultramarines vs. Word Bearers Imperial Fists vs. Iron Warriors Space Wolves vs. Thousand Sons Iron Hands vs. Emperor's Children Now I don't know what to do with the rest which are; loyalists: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Raven Guard and White Scars traitors: Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Night Lords and Alpha Legion I already thought that maybe do Dark Angels vs. Night Lords because of the Thramas Crusade (not sure if I spelled it right) but other then that I do not know, any thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonal Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Salamanders Vs. Night Lords might work. The Salamanders, and their Primarch, both disliked and distrusted the Night Lords and Curze hated Vulkan most out of all of his brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Chronicler Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Oh sorry mate forgot to add Salamanders and Death Guard I was going to do Salamanders vs Death Guard mainly after I read the book it juts seemed appropriate that they will be fighting each other in the future when I make these two beautiful Legions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Well after Scars it appears Death Guard, and more specifically Mortarion has an eternal feud with the White Scars. I'd say Salamanders and Night Lords works, since Curze took an interest in Vulkan since he was the "nicest" of all the Primarchs. Raven Guard - Alpha Legion Blood Angels - Sons of Horus World Eaters - Everyone Dark Angels - Themselves Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Atticus Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Well after Scars it appears Death Guard, and more specifically Mortarion has an eternal feud with the White Scars. I'd say Salamanders and Night Lords works, since Curze took an interest in Vulkan since he was the "nicest" of all the Primarchs. Raven Guard - Alpha Legion Blood Angels - Sons of Horus World Eaters - Everyone Dark Angels - Themselves IIRC it's the Death Guard who are sent to retake the spaceport from the Scars that are running wild on the traitors during the Siege of Terra, so that would definitely work. I would probably go: BA vs SoH Sallies vs WE DA vs NL WS vs DG RG vs AL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Salamanders have a lot more personal grudges against the Night Lords than the Dark Angels do. Curze treated the Dark Angels like a game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Atticus Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Salamanders have a lot more personal grudges against the Night Lords than the Dark Angels do. Curze treated the Dark Angels like a game. I went with DA vs NL because of the Drop Site Massacre where the Sallies faced several legions, thus they became the guys who took on whoever was left. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 The fact that the DAs and NLs fought each other exclusively for three years during the Thramas Crusade (if I recall) and ending in the destruction of the ability of the NLs to wage war as a coherent Legion, effectively transforming them into warbands probably qualifies as a major grudge. If we were to make rival pairs during the Heresy I'd say DAs and NLs are definately one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Chronicler Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 So what I have written down as a complete and sure rivalry (which will also be used to display an army diorama once that specific Legion is finished) is: Ultramarines vs Word Bearers Imperial Fists vs Iron Warriors Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons Iron Hands vs Emperor's Children Blood Angels vs Sons of Horus Dark Angels vs Night Lords Raven Guard vs Alpha Legion What is left so far are the Salamanders, White Scars, World Eaters and Death Guard. So who will be facing who in these last 4 legions? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Those last four are hard, you could do Salamander vs Death Guard purely for Istvaan V, but the World Eaters and White Scars were not particularly rivals with anyone. At a push you could do WE vs SW, but I agree that the TS are a better match. Perhaps a search through the older fluff to see who The Khan fought through at The Siege of Terra to get to the Spaceport might reveal it to be the WE. Cheers, Jono Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I wouldn't put much stock in 'Night of the Wolf' being a major rivalry point, at least with the World Eaters. They don't seem to harbor too much ill will toward the VIth Legion (none more than anyone else). Can't really think of a good rival for World Eaters, honestly. All of the other Primarchs / Legions knew they were looney and either stayed on their good side, or outright ignored them. Salamanders may be a better fit as per Isstvan V, but I'm pretty sure the Death Guard ravaged them more. Only thing I can say is, Death Guard and White Scars are two completely opposite armies. One is a bit on the slow side but extremely resilient, the other is light and fast. The advantage of doing these two forces is that you get to create two completely different forces, which would probably cut down on the monotony. The downside is, you're pretty much just doing two white Legions. While white isn't terrible to paint, it can get boring if you're doing two forces worth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 However the whole point of the Night Lords even facing the Dark Angels was because Curze was angry with Vulkan and said he'd go and play with all the other Primarchs because of Vulkans weakness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I must admit I was always inclined with the BA vs WE what with the Skarbrand vs Sangy punch up - otherwise WS vs DG and Sallies vs WE Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Actually the Thramas Crusade was a year long and it wasn't the Dark Angels who "shattered" the Legion. Sevatar ordered the Legion to be broken down into six "Great Companies" with one of the Kyroptera(excepting the Raven) being at the head of each fleet. the Legion was still coherent as they fought a coherent retreat against a second ambush and had a series of rendezvous points in place to meet up and collect the portions of the individual fleets. Only Sevatar would be unable to do this since he is currently a prisoner and when Curze makes it back to the Legion, who knows what will happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Chronicler Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 So far I have to agree that it is hard to pair up the World Eaters or White Scars with any particular as neither legion has a specific hatred or rivalry against another legion (or it hasn't been revealed yet) so the Salamanders are going up against the Death Guard and I will allow the White Scars/ World Eaters to move against any traitor/loyalist legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 So far I have to agree that it is hard to pair up the World Eaters or White Scars with any particular as neither legion has a specific hatred or rivalry against another legion (or it hasn't been revealed yet) so the Salamanders are going up against the Death Guard and I will allow the White Scars/ World Eaters to move against any traitor/loyalist legion Read Scars, it's quite evident it's the Death Guard they are now rivals with, and Salamanders compassionate beliefs vs Night Lords disregard for life, plus Vulkan in Vulkan Lives and Unremembered Empire I'd say goes further than the little crusade the dark angels had with the night lords. Salamanders may of faced the Death Guard on Istvaan, that's purely because they are both the most physically resistant Legions and so they were paired. "Rivalry wise" hey were two sides of the same coin, it says this in Massacre, one would burn the world in purifying flame leaving it ripe for restructuring, the other would salt the ground, but this didn't result in a rivalry like the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors, they were kept very much apart and they both did same thing depending on the situation, so there was no animosity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 So far I have to agree that it is hard to pair up the World Eaters or White Scars with any particular as neither legion has a specific hatred or rivalry against another legion (or it hasn't been revealed yet) so the Salamanders are going up against the Death Guard and I will allow the White Scars/ World Eaters to move against any traitor/loyalist legionRead Scars, it's quite evident it's the Death Guard they are now rivals with, and Salamanders compassionate beliefs vs Night Lords disregard for life, plus Vulkan in Vulkan Lives and Unremembered Empire I'd say goes further than the little crusade the dark angels had with the night lords. Salamanders may of faced the Death Guard on Istvaan, that's purely because they are both the most physically resistant Legions and so they were paired. "Rivalry wise" hey were two sides of the same coin, it says this in Massacre, one would burn the world in purifying flame leaving it ripe for restructuring, the other would salt the ground, but this didn't result in a rivalry like the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors, they were kept very much apart and they both did same thing depending on the situation, so there was no animosity. Not to mention the DA vs NL and SL vs DG rivalries would all be one sided. The Dark Angels don't care that they won. They won. Woopiedodah. Honor has been satisfied. Time to move to the next front. The Death Guard don't care what the Salamanders think. It has neither bearing nor effect on their duties. They will keep marching on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumah Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I'm not sure where I got this notion, but I was under the impression that the Blood Angels were rivals of the World Eaters due to their shared specialization as heavy assault shock troops. It might have been something I read on a wiki somewhere... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Bromanders vs "Who cares where the blood comes from, as long as it FLOWS!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 There's comparisons in the way they fight but then there's rivalries which don't necessary rely on fighting similar. Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors, yes that's because they shared the same niche but it was a prominent niche where only one of them would get the plaudits while the other didn't, but then the philosophical differences...warning spoilers for Vulkan lives and Scars.. Salamanders valued life, Night Lords were disgusted by it, Vulkan couldn't die, Curze wanted to die, Vulkan had a high set of morals, Curze thought morals were a lie. The feud between the Khan and Mortarion was relatively the opposite of Dorn and Perturabos problem, they weren't alike they were exact opposites, Khan valued speed and small deliberate strikes to deal the damage over time, Mortarion valued endurance, sustaining damage to wear your opponent down and bringing your full power to bear to deliver a knockout blow, they are essential at a stalemate, it didn't help that the Khan poked Mortarion by suggesting he's replaced one tyrant with a tyrant who endorses the use of psykers and sorcery which kind of peed him off. In regards to Blood Angels and World Eaters, I'd actually say the Blood Angels had more in common with the Sons of Horus style of combat, they both did the "spear tip" but in different ways, Blood Angels favored aerial assaults via jump packs etc, Sons of Horus preferred getting their feet on the ground with drop pods and then steamrolling through, both were just as aggressive as each other, they just had their own favoured take on the tactic. World Eaters though they are just mental, They didn't hate or like anyone they just wanted to kill, they didn't have rivalries, they didn't care if they liked or hated other legions, all they needed wash to kill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 It was wrong. World Eaters shared no rivalry with any particular Legion, although you get the feeling that they look down on most as they see themselves superior in combat to the rest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Ignoring Vulkan Lives(As a Night Lords fan, it's portrayal of Curze was severely left wanting and I've yet to meet a Night Lords fan who disagrees with me, but I'm sure they're out there somewhere and I won't begrudge them for it) there is the fact that the Night Lords have always been shown on the darker side of the spectrum. These are the people who "make the end justify the means" and then grow to like the means. For them, it would be better to kill 3,000,000 to save 300,000,000,000 lives. That is the core of their philosophy. Kill a few to scare the rest into submission. Break their spirits and keep those spirits broken, and you never have to worry about them again. The Salamanders are the very anti-thesis of this. They seek to preserve and strengthen the Human spirit rather than breaking it into subservience. As a result, they would rather lose 3,000,000 of their own number and in the process kill 300,000,000,000 who will not surrender(I feel it is important to note this part) just to save the 30,000 survivors who will become a "remnant" because "it will preserve the spirit of that culture and its people". As a result, you get two ideologies who aim for the same goal of preserving humanity, but they have very different ways of going about and where the Salamanders have a complete regard for the Human Life, Spirit and Freedom, the Night Lords only hold contempt and disgust and this results in a clashing of faiths and personalities rather than just the clash of methods you might see between them(the Salamanders) and the Death Guard. For the most part, the Blood Angels and World Eaters arose mostly from the "they are both aggressive shock attack Legions" than anything else. While the Red Thirst is present in the Heresy, it isn't full-blown and is kept so under wrap that only a few within the Legion are aware of it and even fewer outside. For the most part, the BA are better off being paired with the SoH as the two Legions are a mirror image of the broken brotherhood between the III and X Legions. The White Scars and the Death Guard also have the strong rivalry mentioned in Scars. My personal opinion on rivalries is that there are so many ways each Legion can be paired with another(i.e. Night Lords vs Sallies, Night Lords against Dark Angels[one-sided rivalry] and Night Lords vs Raven Guard[Through the Looking Glass Darkly]) that ultimately, it is up to the person in charge of the project as to which way each rivalry will go and be represented. There is no real "one answer" here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Personally I'd go for: Imperial Fist v Iron Warriors Ultramarines v Word Bearers Space Wolves v Thousand Sons Iron Hands v Emperor's Children Salamanders v Night Lords Dark Angels v Sons of Horus (1st Legion v '1st' Legion) White Scars v Death Guard Alpha Legion v Raven Guard World Eaters v Blood Angles (what they could have been/be) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyMonkey Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I like Dark Angels v. Sons of Horus. Fluff tends to reinforce the idea that both legions are the best in terms of their ferocity and outcomes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I like DARK ANGELS v. Sons of Horus. Fluff tends to reinforce the idea that both legions are the best in terms of their ferocity and outcomes. That's a strange way to mispell Ultramarines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282592-legion-rivalries/#findComment-3508886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.