blast templates and the casualty rules

[Blindhamster]

Anyone able to explain how they work?

 

post FAQ, anything that is out of range cannot be killed.

 

casualties are taken from the closest model first.

 

does this mean that in the case of a blast template, all casualties that are removed have to be taken from underneath the blast template?

 

does it also mean that templates are better sniping weapons than sniper weapons as if the centre of the template was over say... the heavy weapon model in a unit, that one has to die first? Any quotes to backup viewpoints would be appreciated!

 

Thanks for any input

 

 

[Lysere]

Barrage weapons require you to pull from models closest to the center of it first, standard blast weapons have no such rule, instead you simply pull models based on closest to the unit firing. Note models that are out of range of all of the units available shooting can not be pulled as they are out of range. So a lucky long range hit with a blast weapon might only kill a couple models. Also Template weapons get no bonus of where models are pulled from. Safe to assume anyway that guys getting hit with it tend to be closest anyway though.

[Fibonacci]

Closest model means closest to the firing unit.  Let's be clear about this.  Closest model to the firing unit.

It is common for blast weapons to cause casualties that are not under the marker.  You will place the template so it is over the biggest clump of models which are usually in the middle or towards the back of the pack but the wounds will be allocated to the ones closest to your unit. 

 

It sometimes happens that the model colsest to the firing unit is not the model closest to the firing weapon.  Pick the one cloeset to the unit.

 

It is possible (but extremely rare) for template weapons to cause casualties that are then removed from models that were not covered by the template.  You will always pull off the closest models even though some of these will not have been under the template when the weapon fired.

 

The exception to this is the barrage weapon rule like Lysere stated.  On those weapons you allocate wounds to models closest to the center of the blast marker.

[Plan-B]

Wow this is news to me for some reason I thought when firing say for instance a blast master or frag missle you had to take models from under the template.  So if im reading this right if my unit is shot in the middle with a blast then I can remove the casualties from the front of the unit which would be closest to the unit firing?

[Lysere]

Wow this is news to me for some reason I thought when firing say for instance a blast master or frag missle you had to take models from under the template.  So if im reading this right if my unit is shot in the middle with a blast then I can remove the casualties from the front of the unit which would be closest to the unit firing?

 

Exactly, blast weapons and template weapons do not make exceptions to the shooting rules, which is models closest to the firing unit. Barrage and select psychic abilities however make specific exceptions to this rule, they also tell you exactly how they work.

 

Also keep in mind since they finally FAQ'd it blast weapons can indeed kill models the unit can't physically see due to scatter. You still have to work it the same way ie closest model to the unit regardless of line of sight dies first. Of course they would have cover (Solid walls tend to work well that way) but can still be killed.

[Lorenzen]

Blind is refering to barrage, i know this because its to do with a discussion i was having with him.

 

Namely what happens when hits from 2 templates overlap? As range is measured from the hole, if 1 blast kills everything underneath it & a 2nd shot hit the same place, no models are in range to be killed..

 

Imagine if you will 2 barrages hit the same place, (medusa unit) causing 12 hits (6 each) on a 20 man unit, the firer would roll 12 wounds, but a maximum of 6 models can die right?

[Lysere]

Blind is refering to barrage, i know this because its to do with a discussion i was having with him.

 

Namely what happens when hits from 2 templates overlap? As range is measured from the hole, if 1 blast kills everything underneath it & a 2nd shot hit the same place, no models are in range to be killed..

 

Then whoever else is closest to the hole gets hit. Technically you only have to be within the firing vehicles range, which is allowed to scatter further thanks to being blast. Just because a model is under a template does not mean they have to be pulled, barrage simply uses that to figure out how many hits are scored. You then use the center hole to determine who is next in line to die. So if two barrage shots landed in the exact same spot from the exact same unit and lets say 10 wounds are caused, everyone under the template will die first since they are obviously closest, you then work out from there as to who is closest to the center hole. Of course look out sir can change all this.

[Fibonacci]

 Imagine if you will 2 barrages hit the same place, (medusa unit) causing 12 hits (6 each) on a 20 man unit, the firer would roll 12 wounds, but a maximum of 6 models can die right?

Actually you would continue to pull models from the unit but still allocating wounds to the next closest model for each blast.

 

If you look at the example on page 34.  Suppose shot B was a hit and they placed the marker over the top of A -- and why wouldn't you since it hits 4 models. If all hits wound and there is no armor save ... you first resolve shot A form where it landed and pull out 4 models.  The shot B, which landed on top of A, pulls the next closest 4 models; at least one of those will be under marker C and some others that were not under any marker.  Finally shot C is resolved taking 3 models which are closest to its center.  This will finish off the squad which only had 11 models to start with.  The whole squad is gone even though only about half were covered by blast markers.

[Lorenzen]

I dont have a rulebook to hand, could you give a quote of the rule that states this, to my knowledge the barrage rule says RANGE is measured from the centre of the template.. i may be wrong however

[Fibonacci]

See page 34 when you get one because I am not going to copy a full page of rules by hand. Besides, I can not quote what is not there. No mention of range at all. Cover saves and wound allocation are determined from the center of the blast marker.

 

[edit]

Since barrage is a a special type of blast, I looked to see is those rules had anything new to say. Under multiple blasts:

"Scatter each individually, then determine how many hits are scored by each blast marker. Finally, resolve these, and the rest of the unit's shots, as normal."

 

The blast markers determine the number of hits scored. Roll to wound and then allocate as normal. With barrage the normal allocation is changed to the closest model to the center of the blast. The markers determine the number of hits to the unit and the location for closest model; there are no other restrictions or permissions that I see.

 

[edit 2]

If you want to see what "resolve ... as normal" means, see page 15 for Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties.

[tvih]

Maybe it's just me being tired, or the discussion is going all over the place, so this reply is going to be too, I guess.

 

As for range, it's not barrage that defines the range, it's Blast. "The hole at the centre of the marker must be within the weapon's maximum range." But I'm not sure how that's even relevant to this discussion, since for determining the range of what you can kill you use the the measuring tape, not the blast marker. And while a Blast can hit and wound models outside of its range, with the FAQ in effect you can't assign the wounds to models beyond the weapon's range. So you can cause wounds to models out of range, but not assign them, instead removing models only as long as they're within range.

 

So anyway, Barrage in itself doesn't really have anything to do with range. Except of course when taking into account that stupid shooting attack range FAQ which would basically mean that if the template scatters beyond the weapon's range you wouldn't be able to kill anything as you couldn't assign the wounds due to needing to remove models closest to the hole. I guess you could argue that in that case you remove the model closest to the hole that is in range of the weapon, but I'm not sure if that's supported by the rules, it could go either way - I'd ay it's the correct interpretation, but who the heck can say for sure. That FAQ really causes a lot of unnecessary headache and really messes up with the original RAW.

 

For multiple blasts, whether Barrage or not, you determine the amount of hits and wounds for all the markers originating from the same firing unit prior to removing any casualties, so just because one shot removes casualties from under another template, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that the casualties are within range for the weapon.

[Gentlemanloser]

The issue with the original RAW was that you couldn't assign wounds to units out of range or LoS, period.

 

So if your blast scattered out of LoS/Range, it didn't matter how many wounds you caused, as you could never assign any and no casualties could be removed.

[tvih]

If you're referring to the Blast & Large Blast FAQ, that only applies to LoS, and does nothing for range. Prior to the FAQ about shooting attacks and assigning wounds a 48" Blast weapon could kill models 60"+ away, nothing prevented that. But NOW with current FAQ RAW you can't kill beyond 48" with such a weapon.

[Raeven]

Except, the Blast rules specifically allow you to wound units and models outside of the weapons range. 

 

The FAQ just clarified the misreading being made regarding LOS.  If you can wound a unit out of range and out of LOS, you can allocate the wounds to that unit.

 

The range FAQ does not nullify the special allowance given by the Blast rule.

[Ming]

I wish i had a rule book at work. here is my 2 cents or pence...

 

Say you had a dev squad with 4 MLs and shot it at a group of orks 36 to 55 inches away.

 

According to rules for placement of the blast markers, you find the location in the target unit that has the most models under the blast marker and in range (up to 48 inches away in this case). Deviate the blast marker 4 separate times from that point to determine the total number of models hit. Lets say you were lucky and the opponent clustered 5 orks under the blast marker, at say 44 inches from the firers. If all 4 markers rolled as hits, you'd have 20 hits (4x5), then roll for wounds. Orks make saves (if they had any due to cover, whatever), and the casualties are removed starting from the orks closest to the firing unit. Probably 10 dead orks (20 hits vs S4/T4), unless you get lucky on the wound rolls. No other models in the dev squad can shoot to that range, so there is nothing else in the wound/casualty pool. Note that in this example, yes, even with all four blast markers stacked, the number of models hit is not 5, but 20....

 

As a clarification, there is someplace in the rulebook where it meantions specifically for blast markers that they sometimes deviate from the hit location, and that you would then count up hits at that new location. That was further clarified by FAQ to include models even if they were not in the firing units LOS (the fragmentation warhead has to explode somewhere!). So, in the case above, say a blast marker deviated 8 inches back from the 44 inch mark (to 52 inches away). If there were any orks touched/under the new marker location they would still be counted as hits AND casualties are still removed from the front of the unit.

 

Overall, as a reminder (I'm saying this based on some of the wording in posts above) - count all of your hits from ALL weapons fired by a unit before moving to the wound roll phase. DO NOT resolve hits/wounds separately by weapon. Against direct fire, unless covered by a special rule, all casualty removal occurs starting from the closest model, in the AP group order set by the firing player. Saves begin after the total number of wounds caused is known. Saves occur in order of the wounding (AP, S) groupings set by the firing player

 

In the case of indirect barrage fire (mortars, orbital barrage, manticores, thunderfires, other artillery), the original center of the marker (blast or large blast) has to be placed in range of the firing weapon. Cover saves (if any) are taken from the center of the marker, NOT from the distance or position of the firing model. Casualties from indirect (aka Barrage) fire is from the center of the markers first, then moving outward from that point, even in the case of multiple barrage templates (like a D3 large blast ordnance barrage manticore strike). This is also interpreted and weakly written that because you are firing a barrage indirect, no rule modifying line of site is applicable (such as night) when firing indirect (barrage).

 

Clearer? Prior rule sets had better details for blast weapons. The current rule book still has them, but the language is scattered in several locations in the current rule book format.

[tvih]

Except, the Blast rules specifically allow you to wound units and models outside of the weapons range.

And the FAQ basically countermands that. FAQ updates obviously override the orignal rulebook.

 

The FAQ just clarified the misreading being made regarding LOS.  If you can wound a unit out of range and out of LOS, you can allocate the wounds to that unit.

 

The range FAQ does not nullify the special allowance given by the Blast rule.

Nothing in the FAQ says you can. The FAQ doesn't make a distinction of "except if it's a Blast." It says you can't assign wounds outside of weapon range when making a shooting attack, period. It's RAW even if it is - and it is - stupid. This is why there was an outcry when that particular FAQ update hit - it makes things stupid and complicated.

[Raeven]

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds

from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within

range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.

half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half

are not)? (p15)

A: No.

 

Sorry, Tvih, I can't agree.  This FAQ addresses the general rules, hence the (p15) reference.  It does not over rule special exceptions made by other rules to the normal rules.  The FAQ doesn't have to make any distinction.  Blast rules do that.

[Fibonacci]

This is kind of getting away from the original question.

 

Barrages, multiple blasts and removing models that were not under any of the markers.  I know what I have found but with the scattered rules it is easy to miss a note at times.   Can anyone find something that would limit wounds to only those models under a template?

[Raeven]

According to the rules, you separate the wounds for each template. 

 

There is nothing in the rules that prevents the wounds from hitting models beyond the template.  The only restriction is that the wounds from each individually placed marker template is allocated from closest to center out.

[Ming]

I think my explanation was "spot on". 

 

I noticed there are other threads where people are demanding rule book page numbers. 

 

Page 6 covers blast markers and templates, and scatter of blast markers.

 

Page 13 states some weapons such as blast, cannot be fired by snap shot.  It also says to roll for all hits at the same time (firing is simultaneous in a unit). 

 

Page 14 covers the wound pool development.

 

Page 15 covers basic wound allocation.

 

Page 16 covers briefly out of range.

 

From there we skip to page 33 Special Rules for Blast and Large Blast - including "the hole at the center of the marker must be within the weapons maximum range....then roll for scatter....note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond the weapon's maximum range and line of site...representing the chance of ricochets...and can hit and wound models out of range and LOS...Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit have been worked out, roll to Wound and save as normal.  any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack.  Multiple Blasts - if the unit is firing more than one shot with the blast special rule, resolve each shot one at a time as described above .  scatter each individually then determine how many hits are scored by each blast marker.  Finally resolve these and the rest of the units shots as normal. 

 

Page 34 - Special Rules for Barrage.  Uses the same rules as Blast and Large Blast with the following changes....and additional bulleted special rules for multiple barrages.  Worth reading.  Saves from barrages start at the center of each template, and cover saves start at the center of each template.  Rules do seem to suggest having each barrage blast marker as a separate wound group, in order for wounds to be allocated starting from the center of each and then working outward.  The example on the page (graphic) depicts placing blast markers from a multiple barrage.  Barrage weapons cause pinning.

 

Page 40 - Special Rules for Pinning. 

 

Page 46 covers the Special Rules for Artillery.  Ranges are measured from the gun barrel. 

 

Page 51 covers the Special Rules for Ordnance Weapons.  A non-vehicle model carrying a Ordnance weapon cannot fire in the shooting phase if it moved in the preceding movement phase and cannot fire snap shots.  Also if a non-vehicle model fires an ordnance weapon it cannot fire other weapons that phase or charge in the following assault phase.  Ordnance weapons roll 2 dice and pick the highest result for armor penetration. 

 

Page 57 covers basic stats for missile launchers. 

 

Page 71 (bottom) covers vehicles and ordnance weapons. 

 

Page 100 covers blasts and template special rules for multilevel ruins

 

That pretty much covers it.

 

Now the FAQ adds:

 

Page 33 – Blast & Large Blast, Line of Sight - Add to the end of the final paragraph: “Remember to keep the wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule in their own wound pool, and that wounds from this pool can be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit”.

 

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15)  A: NO.  (this refers to shooting attacks - NOT blast weapon attacks).

 

Q: Can blast markers hit a model that is not in the attacker’s line of sight if they do NOT scatter? (p33)
A: Yes, as long as the target enemy model for the blast weapon is within the firer’s line of sight.

 

Q: In a multiple barrage, do you determine all of the hits and all of the Wounds separately for each blast, or do you resolve all of blasts in one go? (p34)
A: Work out the total number of models hit by each template, then proceed to allocate Wounds and remove casualties as normal for the models hit by each separate template.