Dreadnoughts: they have their uses

[IK Viper]

Recently I have been playing alot of games using the new C: SM's in conjunction with me GK and Blood Angels. In my current meta I like to maintain enough lascannon firepower to threaten Riptides, Wraithknights, Nid bugs, etc. from range. I also must have ways to counter Khornedog rush lists,Chaos Spawn, and nid assault units. All this has combined to cause me to begin fielding Dreadnoughts again.  Here are some of my observations and thoughts:
 

1. Tactical Squads get pummeled badly in CC vs. anything dedicated to assault (not exactly news but work with me here). And space marines in general have a hard time with high toughness things that do not have great armor saves (Sternguard being the exception to this rule). In assault this problem is much much worse as S4 has a really hard time putting out enough wounds to repell the fast assault units in the game right now such as Nurgle Chaos Spawn, Khornedogs, Wraiths, Bloodcrushers, etc)

2. Many squads are not carrying the needed CC weapons to deal with dreadnoughts any more in 6th edition, specially when a regular sgt. only comes with 1 attack and most people don't pay for the upgrade.  No one puts a PF on a single attack model... its a waste. Few people even bother with a MB any more, trusting instead in their krak granades to get the job done vs. AV
 

3. alot of the CC units that I see coming at me are multi-wound, T5 or less (alot of Deamon Princes, Khornedogs, Blood Cruchers) and either cannot really hurt AV12, or don't want to risk getting doubled out by a S 10 hit (Deamon Princes will go first and kill a dread, but not if the dread is in cover, in which case the smart CD player will ignore the dread)
 

4. In most balanced lists, you need atlest 2-4 long range AP 2 weapons for anti-tank and anti-MC work, Dreads offer a mobile heavy weapon

As a result, when running my SM's I am getting alot of mileage out of regular Dreadnoughts with TLLC, DCCW/ St. Bolter (would put the flamer on if had the points free). These guys coupled with an ADL (something I take most games any way) can be a very good support unit for tactical squads

For Example:
I have been using 2 Tac. Squads of 10 in Rhinos with Plasma Rifles, Combi. Plas, and either ML or Las Can. as my scorring base. Supported by 2 Dreadnoughts with TLLC and and ADL with an Ic. Las Can. This will run you 765 to 775 points based on your Las Can vs. ML prefference, it is a solid base off which to build an army.

You have 3 Lac Cannons, and 2 more heavy weapons from the Tac.s to comprise your Anti-tank/MC firepower.  It is important to note that this firepower is spread very thinly across 5 different units, making it very hard to take out quickly.  What these dreadnoughts add to the list is a CC threat/ holding unit as well as another heavy weapon platform.  With the Challenge System in place, there is little reason to spend points putting a PF on a Tac. Sgt. to give them some CC punch, much better to rely on a dreadnought to bail them out of CC jams.  AV 12 is also great for locking down many of the assault units that come crashing down on Tacticals and drown them in attacks (examples include: Chaos Spawn,Khornedogs, Blood Crushers, Incubi, etc.). A dreadnought is also great at eating an overwatch for a tactical squad or other similar unit that could otherwise take alot of damage on the way in.  Dreadnoughts can also step up and block a charge from a Mauler fiend or Wraiths. Against Wraiths he will die horribly but hopefully buys your Tacs. a turn to embark their Rhinos and get away.  Mauler Fiends and Soul Grinders go after him (I3) and are WS3 so he has a chance to go first and maybe kill them.  If not, he will keep them away from your Tacticals for atleast 1 turn in most cases.

Most people say Dreadnoughts are terrible.  I agree that they are not super powerful units, but they have a place in some lists.  Sadly they cannot be viewed as the awesome killing machines they should be, and cannot even be used as aggresively as their BA counterparts.  Instead they fill a support role.  They make great blocking and holding units, bring a mobile heavy weapon to the game, and they are S 10 which can be huge in alot of games.  For Example, An Obliterator Squad that DS down is hard for Tacticals to remove without help, but a Dreadnought can wade in and clean up that squad pretty well, specially if you can kill 1 oblit with shooting (remember oblits cannot overwatch too).  The Instant Death threat also can help against Plague Marines and the like which are otherwise very hard to take out even with AP 2 if they have some cover.  They also are great for jumping on a high powered shooting squad and smothering its fire power, saving you from having to expend your limited resources trying to completely destroy them in order to silence their guns (examples include: sternguard, Crisis Suits the dread can catch based on their jump move roll, Chosen with Plasma, any unit with powerful short range weapons but no real CC ability.

That being said, in order to get the most out of these guys you need to play them very well and use terrain to your advantage.  Unlike tanks, these guys are not scared of terrain, infact they love it.  They are great for using LOS blockers and area terrain without fear of a dangerour terrain test going wrong.  I have found that a Land Raider benefits them alot because they are short enough to hide befind it, shielding them off from the worst of the enemy AT fire. Godhammer pattern ususualy works best in this role because the other variants will want to move forward faster then his stumpy little legs can manage and he will get left behind, while the Godhammer hangs back and complements the Dread with LOS blocking and more TLLC fire. The Land Raider also works very well as a LOS blocker for the purpose of "scoping" or restricting legal targets your shots can hit by blocking your own LOS.

Thoughts? Experiences?
Don't let these ancient warriors languish in obscurity at the bottom of your gaming bag. Field them and watch what they can do :-)

 

Edited: please note I had to go back and clean this up after the post editor messed it up.  Please excuse any overlooked corrections I cleaned it up in one go. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

...might want to go back and re-edit that.  I love diving into any thread about Dreadnoughts, but I'm not going to decrypt that to do so

[Captain Idaho]

IK Viper: I love Dreads but this post is hard to read because of formatting around such large text. Please go through and correct it so we can get involved in a great discussion of my favourite vehicle. :)

[IK Viper]

Fixed it.... so dumb. 

[T14]

I tend to field my dreads as double HW platforms. The move and fire ability lends itself well to support advancing infantry. I need to give this newfangled (for me) Ironclad a whirl, though. The thought of dropping a couple on top of your opponent to mess with his battle plan is very appealing :yes:

[Gentlemanloser]

Dreads are terrible.

Mine die to rapid Fire Plasma Guns and Krak Grenades in CC.

Edit: AV13 dreads are ok. It's just AV12 ones that suck.

[Office temp]

Dreads are terrible. ;)

 

Mine die to rapid Fire Plasma Guns and Krak Grenades in CC.

 

Edit: AV13 dreads are ok.  It's just AV12 ones that suck.

My furioso rampages around the opponents back occupying half his arm, until I do something dumb like forget to charge the ravager 3" away from him

[Gentlemanloser]

They're AV13, aren't they?

 

Plus Frag Cannons are win!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yes, AV13 Dreads of the various sorts are really the only ones worth taking in competitive play.  AV12 is simply too easily killed by plasma and krak grenades.  I'm glad to see that you're getting some good mileage out of TLLC Dreads, and as long as you're sticking solely with heavy weapons and keeping your distance, they perform acceptably well.

 

The problem is that some of the most common units in the game can kill one fairly easily once it has closed the range.

 

Even if an MC charged a Dread in terrain, a lot of them are T6+ and thus can eat a round of S10 hits before subsequently tearing your walker apart.  The DP is the one common exception, but both flavors of Chaos have other common means of getting around this.  For most armies, the sheer amount of S6-8 firepower available cheaply and commonly within the codices makes AV12 simply unsurvivable.  Rapid firing plasma guns, autocannons, quad-missile Devs, scatter laser Wave Serpents, Missile-sides, tesla and gauss weapons. . . the list goes on.  This is why the AV13 of Ironclads and Furiosos is so important; it renders them immune to krak grenades and scatter lasers, and drastically decreases the amount of damage that can be inflicted by the ubiquitous S7 weapons that have come to dominate 6th Edition shooting.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

The new codex should have made regular dreads AV13 at current price, ironclads AV14 (or AV13 with 4 HP) with a small points increase. Missed opportunity

[Kaedes Nex]

Dreadnoughts aren't terrible but they suffer a lot of common marine problems like being a little bit overpriced for what they can do and being outdated compared to the new hotness.

 

I will always welcome a podded MM/HF Dreadnought or Seismic Hammer/DCCW Ironclad if I have the room. It's still reliable utility for anti-horde and AT in one package, and I've seen Ironclads pull off amazing feats, like tarpitting a dangerous, more expensive unit like 10+ Flesh Hounds for an entire game.

[IK Viper]

I have been running mine with the DCCW still attached because I run them in tandom with a Tac. Squad.  The 2 combined can inflict enough wounds in the shooting and assault phase to clean up most basic units in 1-2 rounds. 

 

I agree that AV 13 is much better and much more worth while.  I too wish the dreads were all given an armor buff, or purhaps a bubble effect that inspires near by troop, maybe a 5++, something to make them more durable.  That said, if the enemy AT is directed at my Dreadnoughts, it is not being directed at my Rhinos, which are ultimatly more valuable.  Most opponents don't have alot of good tools to kill AV 13 and will ignore an AV 13 target in favor of putting their S6 and S7 shooting into Rhinos and troops. 

[Jolemai]

Are bookend and paperweight viable options?

 

Obviously I jest and I do take my AV12 Dreadnought when I use stationary lists, so it's good to see someone else if having success.

[Schultzhoffen]

Actually, I like dreadnoughts. I run 3 drop pods, one of which has an Ironclad in it - immediate threat in the backfield with HF and a Melta Gun.

 

I also have a Las/ML dread as a fire support. You'd be surprised at how durable a dreadnought in ruins can be. He is also usually a low priority target due to the multiple threats in my army (drop podding Sternguard and Ironclad spring to mind - ditto Stormraven and other pod in Turn 2).

 

I also use a FW Mortis Pattern Contemptor (twin Las) as Anti Tank/Air so I REALLY like dreads - ironically, I have an Ultramarines army...

 

I have used these in many games and they have virtually always done their jobs.

 

If you field a regular dread as a CC machine you're probably going to be disappointed but they do make excellent Heavy Weapon platforms when the rest of your Heavy Support slots are taken.

 

Most units can work depending on how they gel with your army list and play style.

[Captain Idaho]

I used to get mileage out of a Dread armed with an assault cannon and autocannon, though admittedly haven't used him this edition.

 

I always found one Dread is a target but 2 or 3 is a problem for opponents. Problem for me this edition is getting enough points spare when I'm taking bikers in addition to my Land Raider and Honour Guard etc.

[WarriorFish]

Dreadnoughts have always been best when working with other elements, aside from being a good idea anyway they can complement units well. I mostly run mine with my Tacs now as it helps mitigate their weaknesses. With how the game treats them currently they can still work (of course) but you need to make sure they're in their best element.

 

So as Idaho said taking more than one is almost essential (not a problem for a Dreadnut like me :P ) and if you make sure they're supported then they will fare better. If you pair a Marine squad with a Dread and match their roles then you will have a reliable team that can handle a lot of problems. A Mortis with some Devs forms a strong heavy weapons base and you can leave the DCCW on to save a few points or if you want some additional punch in case enemies get too close.

 

They function well in Pod assaults too but I can not stress enough that they mustn't go alone. The solution as you'd expect is to send them in with Marines, as you'd expect AV13 is a better choice for such roles. Just take your Dread and put him with unit(s) that he can complement and the rest is obvious :)

[thevoodooman]

I play dark angels so slightly different but I use the TLAC to support devastators. Mobile platform for handling transports, creatures, bikes etc, allows the devvys to concentrate on tanks, hordes, whatever they're outfitted to do. Deathwing dread always helps with the volumes of fire it inevitably receives

[aquamarine]

Do people find them more effective than Tactical terminators in a support role though?  They're not our best unit either to be sure, but for 225 points they are cheaper than 2 dreads [with decent weapons], are just as resilient, are more bodies on the ground, are better in CC, can benefit from chapter tactics, and they fulfil the need for at least one half decent infantry bodyguard / CC unit in my list, while still providing fire support...they just seem better value overall.  Though their shooting is a bit worse of course (I take a Cyclone).

 

I do love dreads but with great regret never field mine anymore. They have joined a long list of units in 40k that are not terrible to take, but that have something else in their codex that can do their job better.

 

Imho.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Generally speaking, Tactical Terminators are a dead option from a competitive stand point.  You get too little bang for your buck, and they die too easily.  The number of high-volume or blast weapons with AP2 available has increased drastically over the last two editions, making the storm shield-equipped Hammernator a much more survivable option.

[aquamarine]

Generally speaking, Tactical Terminators are a dead option from a competitive stand point.  You get too little bang for your buck, and they die too easily.  The number of high-volume or blast weapons with AP2 available has increased drastically over the last two editions, making the storm shield-equipped Hammernator a much more survivable option.

 

And by the same argument (which I don't disagree with), aren't dreadnoughts therefore even worse for their points in this hi-strength low-AP environment? Or does their better firepower swing it?

[Gentlemanloser]

Nope.

 

And Hull Points have made them worse.  Glanced to death by Haywire. :(

[Captain Idaho]

In an armoured themed list Dreads can work simply because of saturation. Outside a dedicated list it's harder to pull off.

[Axagoras]

Even with 6 dreadnoughts its usually not enough when all the top tier armies can slag 3+ of them a turn :/

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The only Dreadnoughts worth competitive use are Ironclads and Furiosos; that AV13 makes all the difference, but even then you need a delivery system (either drop pod or latching them on the back end of a Storm Raven).  I believe I already made all these arguments elsewhere in this thread...

[Captain Idaho]

Even with 6 dreadnoughts its usually not enough when all the top tier armies can slag 3+ of them a turn :/

What 1500pts army can reliably destroy 3 or more AV12 vehicles a turn?

 

Anyway, adding a Dread or 2 to an army with a Land Raider, Predator (or 2) and maybe some Drop Pod/Rhino combination, along with a Bike unit etc, will lend the Dreads the saturation they need to survive longer.

 

That's not to say I think Dreads are shining in this edition, but they're not terrible if you want armoured vehicles and have already used your heavy support slots.