Grand Master Belial Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I was thinking over the title of Lord Cypher and his enigmatic position and the level of anonymity and mystery surrounding whoever held the position. The Lion never abolished the position and indeed encouraged it in the Horus Heresy books so it probably exists within the current operating procedures of the Dark Angels and the rest of the Unforgiven. The presence of Fallen 001, Cypher, seems to be the massive wrench in the works as to why the title is not with the marines in green. Now it may later be revealed that the Lord Cypher was on Caliban when Luther switched to Chaos and this is the reasoning why the title doesn't exist amongst the 'modern' Dark Angels. Still, this got me thinking about the background of Asmodai and how he is older and a more successful Interrogator but is not the Master of the Chaplains for some reason. While it is most likely because he has a preference for the sinister Interrogator side of the Chaplaincy and Master would probably need to be more of the Chaplin side. I still think the current Master of Chaplains is still Sapphon but it has not been written in the latest Codecies. Sapphon took the role because of his superior oratory though he is younger and has fewer black pearls to Asmodai. Sapphon also has a key role in determining who is allowed into the secrets of the Deathwing, being one of only three marines to make that determination with Azrael and Ezekiel. This brought me back to the title of Lord Cypher, Cypher stayed outside the official hierarchy of the Order in much of the same ways the Specialists of the Chapter are outside the Heirarchy. But I keep thinking about Asmodai and that he would make a good Lord Cypher in the 'modern' timeline, but cannot take the title because 'there can only be one Cypher' and the renegade version has usurped the title along with the Lion Sword. This would give Asmodai a personal vendetta against Cypher and a reason to do everything he can so that he lands on a slab in Cell 42. Where upon the renegade's death, he would take up the mantle and title of Lord Cypher within the Dark Angels. A duty he may already be doing with the shadows of the Inner Circle with an influencing power amongst the Three in the Innermost Circle. Well, that's my deep thought. Thought I'd share and see if I am in need of a trip to Cell 42 myself or that we might have a new line of intrigue to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradiel Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Now it may later be revealed that the Lord Cypher was on Caliban when Luther switched to Chaos and this is the reasoning why the title doesn't exist amongst the 'modern' Dark Angels. dont have time for more than a few words, but cypher was on caliban at that time, he carries the primarchs sword after all, snatched after the fight the lion and luther, before the loyalists could get there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Now it may later be revealed that the Lord Cypher was on Caliban when Luther switched to Chaos and this is the reasoning why the title doesn't exist amongst the 'modern' Dark Angels. dont have time for more than a few words, but cypher was on caliban at that time, he carries the primarchs sword after all, snatched after the fight the lion and luther, before the loyalists could get there Yep, Fallen Angels has Cypher on Caliban the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 The audio book Grey Angel puts a slight twist on his motives though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 My (somewhat heretical) opinion is that he is still the Lord Cypher in the 42nd m and is used by the Command structure as one of the failsafes that will step in and tell any new Grand Masters the final circle... He is most often seen in the company of Fallen and shortly thereafter the plans of said Fallen fall apart and they are captured (even tho he never is).. (See the novels "AoD" and "Ravenwing") I think he is a deep cover infiltrator operating at the direction of the original Inner Circle (because he has been captured a time or two and disappeared from his cell) to find and bring down the wayward sons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Pondering on the chaplain's motivation...personal greed to improvement to achieve a particular position...doesn't ring a bell. Obviously, all the recruits want to become scouts, who want to become space marines, who want to advance in the natural flow of things into either ravenwing, lexicanum, chaplains, devastators, deathwing....but are happy to be Battle Brothers. After all, we are talking about gene-modified abnormalities with extreme indoctrination (both willing and passive such as hipnosis and similar)...who take pride in doing the job in a flawless fashion and leave it to their ranking officers to decide who advances and when and where to. In the specific case of Asmodai...he incarnates Terror. Retribution. Punishment. Loyalty. Awe. Wouldn't say he need a title to feel more accomplished ;) My thoughts only :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 My (somewhat heretical) opinion is that he is still the Lord Cypher in the 42nd m and is used by the Command structure as one of the failsafes that will step in and tell any new Grand Masters the final circle... He is most often seen in the company of Fallen and shortly thereafter the plans of said Fallen fall apart and they are captured (even tho he never is).. (See the novels "AoD" and "Ravenwing") I think he is a deep cover infiltrator operating at the direction of the original Inner Circle (because he has been captured a time or two and disappeared from his cell) to find and bring down the wayward sons... I don't think it as heretical at all, it's a good idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larhendiel Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Brother dean there is a logic behind your words. I myself used to think that Cupher is not a name of a character that you can buy and play with in chaos marines army but a title and once one cypher dies another fallen claims it, so the hunt for him will continue untill the last fallen is caught. But the idea of a double agent makes me thinking..... I don't think that even dudes in GW HQ are that good with fluff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I don't think it as heretical at all, it's a good idea! And it fits with the portrayal of Cypher as a loyalist in "Grey Angel". Edit: And in "Malediction" he goes out of his way in the face of an impending DA drop to defend an Imperial planet from Chaos Cultist invasion... Something is going on here... Brother dean there is a logic behind your words. I myself used to think that Cupher is not a name of a character that you can buy and play with in chaos marines army but a title and once one cypher dies another fallen claims it, so the hunt for him will continue untill the last fallen is caught. But the idea of a double agent makes me thinking..... I don't think that even dudes in GW HQ are that good with fluff! Wheels within wheels within wheels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyocum Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Well, to support Brother dean's position, look also at the last rules for Cypher. He turns a squad of CSMs basically into loyalists, and the fluff for him in that codex says that where he goes, the Imperium emerges from the Chaos he brings stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artemid Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 From the fluff I've seen of Asmodai's actual personality... he'd be a terrible Lord Cypher. I can't remember if it's from Ravenwing, or Purging of Kadillus, or something... but the Company Master there had to seriously rein him in. He's a fanatical zealot about his mission. It's why his pearl count is what it is, but it's also probably why he's not the Master of Chaplains: he's too singularly focused on catching and making Fallen repent at the expense of absolutely everything else. Whatever 40k Cypher's game really is, it's being played in the long form to the extreme, and Asmodai does not seem capable of that kind of vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 The Heros of the Imperium book about Asmodai backs up what Artemid is saying. Asmodai is very much a loose cannon and only has one goal, the redemption of the lost. A Master of the Reclusium must minister and shape the minds and motives of all Battle Brothers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Asmodai has one goal, one focus: the repentance of the Fallen. He is the pinnacle of everything 'bad' about our hunt, the extremes, the singular zeal and devotion to ONE outcome. Conversely Belial and Azrael look at the big picture and consider how best to handle both the hunt and the Legions Chapters commitment to the Imperium proper as well as pursuing the Fallen. The closest person to remembering the lore/traditions as the Lord Cypher would is actually Ezekial or, perhaps, Sapphon. But the role of the Librarius is, essentially, to preserve the memory of the Chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 The problem with Cypher is that (I think) Games Workshop and Black Library have chosen to perpetuate his theme as an enigma as opposed to working on an ongoing, consistent storyline for him. Thus, while we have stories that definitely make Cypher look like a good guy (his aiding Imperials in 'Malediction'), we also have stories where he is indisputably willing to do harm to the Dark Angels ('Easy Prey', where he kills two battle-brothers engaged in wiping out a population in the name of the Inquisition).I believe Cypher seeks to redeem Fallen from Chaos (hence giving the rule of ATSKNF to Chaos Space Marines in previous editions), but abandons them when they prove unwilling to do so. He stands against the Dark Angels because he feels they have become less than what they were, and possibly awaits the return of the Lion (or maybe even seeks to restore him vis-a-vis the Lion Sword). That having been said, what fluff I do possess of the Thirteenth Black Crusade simply paints him as an agent of Chaos. I don't own any of the products that categorically stated that his efforts ultimately aided the Imperium. Thus, I can't justifiably argue that his presence in the Caliban system (assuming he was there with the rest of the Fallen) was to restore the Lion. He could very well have been trying to free Luther, for all I know.Probably the most interesting recent angle related to Cypher has been in the latest Codex: "Some of the Masters within the Dark Angels claim that Cypher is under the protection of some higher power and that he represents the Fallen Angels' only chance of redemption." (page 28, iBooks edition) This would mean that there is a faction within the Unforgiven that is presumably at odds with Asmodai, Tigrane, and those of a similar mindset within the Inner Circle. That theme and the question of where Azrael falls in this debate are central in my writing projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Presumably the story of Cypher will also continue in the Legacy of Caliban Trilogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Given the ending of 'Ravenwing', I think that's a solid bet! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Given the ending of 'Ravenwing', I think that's a solid bet! Odds are in my favour, although whether it actually reveals much more about his motives or leaves it still grey and mystical is another matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 SPOILER ALERT... At the end of the trilogy, Cypher is going to be captured by Brothers Shaggy and Scooby, and revealed to be the old man who runs the Haunted House ride. He would have got away with it if it hadn't been for them pesky Dark Angels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Claw Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 How about if these 'Mysterious Benefactors' are actually the Watchers and Cypher himself is a Cabal agent? From the novels we know the Watchers are ridiculously strong Psykers who can seemingly turn up wherever they damn well please, so springing him from a cell or two wouldn't even occupy most of an afternoon for them and they along with their unnamed alien chums(hint, hint) aren't the greatest fans of chaos. Infiltrating organisations and destroying them from within while making it look like misfortune also smacks of the Cabal's Modus Operandi, perhaps the Starchild prophecy is actually a desperate Cabal scheme to either damn or save humanity but ultimately continue their fight to defeat chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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