Rules query - infantry providing cover for tanks

[Gondow]

I have some rule problems.

In this picture, does the tank get:

No cover save
5+ cover due to shooting through a 3rd unit
4+ for the unit counting as if behind terrain

(p.18 Intervening Models)
(p.74-75 Vehicles and cover)


and wound allocation and who can shoot and all that jazz

Dread with lascanon and assultcanon.
They cause one wound each, I choose to take the save for las and fail.
Now the asscan doesn't reach, that is one lost wound? right?
 

[weycon]

I would play it with 5+ cover due to shooting through a 3rd unit..

 

 

&

 

 

You do not choose which order you take your own saves. Your opponent does that. 

[thepowerofwar]

 Intervening models give only a 5+ cover.  But if you had the front completely blocked los wise and the could only see the sides from the front angle then you would get a +1 to you cover save making it a 4+ cover, but its hard to do that with a squad.

[Gondow]

I can't find it in the rules where it states that my opponent chooses in what order i take the saves (nor the opposite).

So can I get a page quote on that please?

[weycon]

p.15 Mixed Wounds.

 

 

"You, as the shooting player player, get to choose the order"

[Gondow]

Holy crap Batman!
Totally missed that, oh well that solves a lot of confusion :)

 

Thank you.

[Ushtarador]

Also, a model has only to be in range of any one weapon in the firing unit, and any wound can be allocated to it.

[Gondow]

So a unit with DC, One guy with a bolter and the rest with pistols. All shooting has a threat range of 24"?

[Ushtarador]

Well, of course the bolt pistols can only shoot if at least one model of the target unit is within 12''. But the wounds caused by the bolt pistols can then be allocated to models that are up to 24'' away from the guy carrying the bolter, yes.

[Gondow]

and since It looks like I'm being a douche about this, do you have a page ref.?

[Ushtarador]

sry, no rulebook at hand currently, but it's somewhere in the wound allocation section ^^

[Gondow]

Orly!? :)

That place is as hard to navigate and make sense as trying to navigate a march in thick fog while dead drunk!

[Memento Of Prospero]

casualties from shooting can affect models up to the maximum range of the longest weapon being fired. However. a weapon needs to have originally been in range to begin with. My favourite example is the Fragioso. 

 

with a magna grapple, you can kill models up to 12 inches away, granting you a greater killzone than your templates would allow.

[Gondow]

I know it has been debated before, but can I please get a page reference?

[Memento Of Prospero]

p. 16, out of range

[Xenith]

Erm. Vehicles have their own cover rules, which I would advise reading. The 5+ save for intervening models does not apply to them.

 

Instead, a vehicle gets a save if 25% of it is obscured by whatever. In the example you pictured, less than 25% of the vehicle is obscured by the terminator models, so the tank gets no cover save.

 

Enemy models outside the longest range of weapons in the firing unit cannot be allocated wounds. If you had 10 bolt pistols which were precisely 12" from an enemy model, and none were closer, you could only ever kill that model. Adding a bolter to that unit means the maximum range of ranged weapons for the unit goes up to 24" (unless rapid firing), meaning the bolt pistols can kill more.

[Lysere]

Erm. Vehicles have their own cover rules, which I would advise reading. The 5+ save for intervening models does not apply to them.

 

Instead, a vehicle gets a save if 25% of it is obscured by whatever. In the example you pictured, less than 25% of the vehicle is obscured by the terminator models, so the tank gets no cover save.

 

Enemy models outside the longest range of weapons in the firing unit cannot be allocated wounds. If you had 10 bolt pistols which were precisely 12" from an enemy model, and none were closer, you could only ever kill that model. Adding a bolter to that unit means the maximum range of ranged weapons for the unit goes up to 24" (unless rapid firing), meaning the bolt pistols can kill more.

 

Assuming the model firing is firing from the angle of the camera, I'd call that close enough to 25% to be fair for cover, but yeah it's not just intervening models that grant cover for vehicles, it has to be about 25% hidden behind something to get cover. Now if enough of it is infact behind the models then you grant the same cover save you would for infantry for that situaion. The models grant a 5+ while something like a ruin would grant a 4+. If you take techmarines it's important to not only think about what terrain your infantry will be using, but what terrain can your vehicles hide behind when boosting the cover save.

[Ushtarador]

I still think it's really stupid that area terrain does not automatically grant vehicles cover... have you ever tried shooting a car through a forest? Those things are pretty damn dense and obscuring! And modelling area terrain "realistically" just makes it implayable because then there's too much stuff there :/

 

@Xenith  The bolter has a range of 24'', and rapid firing does not change that ;)

[Lysere]

I still think it's really stupid that area terrain does not automatically grant vehicles cover... have you ever tried shooting a car through a forest? Those things are pretty damn dense and obscuring! And modelling area terrain "realistically" just makes it implayable because then there's too much stuff there :/

@Xenith The bolter has a range of 24'', and rapid firing does not change that

Assuming your not playing a power gamer or rules lawyer it should be easy enough to agree that the area terrain grants cover to the vehicle on the other side of it. At my store we usually just use large metal rings that we just place trees into when setting up, and pull out so we can fit the units inside. Still GW should put a rule in for area terrain and vehicles so there is never an argument about it.

[Daddywarcrimes]

and since It looks like I'm being a douche about this, do you have a page ref.?

 

The main rulebook FAQ changed this, allowing wounds to be allocated out to the maximum range of the longest range weapon fired by the unit.  Prior to that FAQ item, as long as the firing model was within range of the target unit, wounds could be allocated beyond the range of his weapon.

 

Edit:

This is of particular interest for things like Fragnoughts, who have to take a magnagrapple so that the wounds from the fragcannon and heavy flamer can be allocated to models more than the length of a template away from the dreadnought.

[Lysere]

 

and since It looks like I'm being a douche about this, do you have a page ref.?

 

The main rulebook FAQ changed this, allowing wounds to be allocated out to the maximum range of the longest range weapon fired by the unit.  Prior to that FAQ item, as long as the firing model was within range of the target unit, wounds could be allocated beyond the range of his weapon.

 

Edit:

This is of particular interest for things like Fragnoughts, who have to take a magnagrapple so that the wounds from the fragcannon and heavy flamer can be allocated to models more than the length of a template away from the dreadnought.

 

Doesn't the dread have an inbuilt storm bolter or melta gun?

[knife&fork]

Not if you take the heavy flamer in his example.

Here's a thought: Will an unfired hunter killer missile give me infinite allocation range if I pop it in the same round as a heavy flamer?

[Memento Of Prospero]

No sadly. Only weapons fired contribute.

[knife&fork]

That's what I meant. 

 

Probably not going to make a lot of difference since you need to get stuff under the template, but for something like a dakka baal it could be a neat trick. 

[ScionsofLight]

um....guys, you do know that range is useless with template allocation right? yes allocation is still used but templates have to cover the most models AND unless it has torant the short end must be touching the shooting model

 

for the wound allocation saves are started at the nearest models and then you go back until all the wounds have been accounted for so no matter what weapons you have the max range of having a grapple is almost never going to help you get "more" with a heavy flamer,  same with adding a bolter in with a unit of pistols (yes the pistols can put wounds out to the the max of the bolter but how often are you going to find a conga line where only 1 is in range of you pistols)