'Pandorax' and its implications (spoilers)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

This is more a lore thread than anything else (although I also want to make some homebrew rules for the guy, as he is pretty unique)

 

So, to wit, in the new novel 'Pandorax', the world of Pythos gets targeted by Abbadon the Despoiler and an attempt is made to open a daemonic portal on the world. One of the key characters in the tale is Epithemeus, an ancient Grey Knight who is left to watch over the daemon vault to prevent such an event. And by ancient I mean he was sleeping in an sus-an trance for just under 10,000 years. One of the earliest missions of the Grey Knights was on Pythos, where they trapped a powerful servant of Nurgle whom they couldn't banish (they don't have his true name). 

 

Now, here is where it gets interesting, Huron uses his Hamadraya (yeah, Huron's in this) to 'read' Epithemeus and discovers his ancient lineage, but also that's he's not originally a Grey Knight. He's actually a Dark Angel Librarian recruited as one of the original founding 8 Grandmasters of the Chapter. We already know of several of the others thanks to the recent Sigilite novels and audiobooks, but this is kinda out of left field. 

 

There aren't a large number of candidates for this role (both for in-universe and meta reasons). BL is going to great lengths to link up all their HH narratives ('Unremembered Empire' brought together a whole swag of plot threads and still left more open), so it would make sense that this Epithemeus (obviously his Knight name, not his original name) is a 30k era Dark Angel we already know about. 

 

Zahariel El'Zurias is the most probable candidate. He had prodigious natural psychic ability even before his training as a Librarian, and with the Emperor's gene-seed and Knight training he would've become even more powerful. How he came to avoid the fate of the Fallen, and whether he ever participated in the final battle for Caliban, is not explained at all. However, we've seen several of the 8 taken from active warzones before, so the Sigilite is used to extracting his candidates from difficult situations. Given the timing of the known events (the destruction of Caliban occurred after the Siege of Terra ended), the most likely explanation is that he was transported off Caliban before the Siege began. He would've, like the other 8, foresworn his previous loyalties and pledged himself to the Knights, and thus had his original gene-seed removed and replaced by the Emperor's. 

 

There will be another Dark Angel book before the end of the series, and almost certainly more novels describing the Sigilite's actions during the war. I really hope they do finally explain who the 8 were. 

 

 

So, as for playing him? He's both a founding Grandmaster and a powerful Librarian, so I thought combining the two would work. 'Grand Strategy' makes little sense though, he's not affiliated with the present timeline Chapter at all. So, he ends up being a sort of Loth/Tiggy equivelant ie both a one-man wrecking crew and having support powers. 

 

HQ:

 

Epithemeus, the Lost Grandmaster - 250 points

 

WS  BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld  Save

 7      6   4  4   4  5  4  10   2+/4+

 

Unit Type: Infantry (character)

Wargear:

- Cataphractii Terminator armour

- Nemesis force halberd

- Bolt pistol

- Psy-bolt ammunition

- Frag grenades

- Krak grenades

- Psyk-out grenades

- Psychic hood

 

Special rules:

- Independent Character

- Psyker (Mastery Level 4)

- Fearless

- Preferred Enemy: Daemons

- Deepstrike

- Founding Eight: Selected for his prodigious psychic talents and his experience in warfare, Epithemeus tutored the first Grey Knight Librarians to ever serve the Chapter, as well as many other battle-brothers. Epithemeus knows the 'Hammerhand' and 'Psychic Communion' psychic powers from Codex: Grey Knights. Epithemeus may choose four additional psychic powers, in any combination, from the following sources; Divination, Pyromancy, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Codex: Grey Knights (note that Epithemeus does not have to pay the usual points cost for powers selected from Codex: Grey Knights, this has already been included in his total points cost). 

- Fated: Whenever Epithemeus is removed from the game, his controlling player may roll a D6. On a 3+, Epithemeus returns to the battlefield with 1 wound remaining. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Where does the 4++ come form?  Is it part of the Cataphractii Terminator armour?  Does said armour not allow you to Deep Strike like TDA?  If it does, he doesn't need DS as a seperate rule.

 

Choosing Powers is far too good.  I know FW have started the precedent.

 

Does he have a NFH in the book (not read it yet!)?  Would a Bolt Pistol give him an extra Attack?  Is it wise to give him a Bolt Pistol while wearing Terminator Armour ( I can't think of any other character that has a BP in TDA).

 

Def gonna be a book I get hold of!

[Lucien Eilam]

with the Emperor's gene-seed

 

Um, what? Where have you got that from? If the original Grand Masters were recruited from their Legions, they would have the geneseed of their original Primarchs. I've never read anything about "hot-swapping" Astartes organs in existing Space Marines.

[Oiad]

 

Where does the 4++ come form?  Is it part of the Cataphractii Terminator armour?  Does said armour not allow you to Deep Strike like TDA?  If it does, he doesn't need DS as a seperate rule.

 

...

 

@Gentlmenloser - Cataphractii armour is an item of wargear from the FW Heresy series. It is indeed more protective than TDA but slower too. Cataphrachtii can still Deep Strike, iirc.

 

@Reclusiarch Darius - Have to agree with Gentlemanloser. Are Cataphractii and a Bolt Pistol part of  Epithemeus' setup in the novel? The Fated special rule is also similar to Thawn's gimmick. Otherwise, the only other thing I'll put out there (to the mods too) is whether custom rules would be better posted here?

[ShadowMaster]

 

with the Emperor's gene-seed

 

Um, what? Where have you got that from? If the original Grand Masters were recruited from their Legions, they would have the geneseed of their original Primarchs. I've never read anything about "hot-swapping" Astartes organs in existing Space Marines.

 

 

It is specifically explained how the founding knights swapped their original gene-seed.

 

It's all in the book, read it but be warned I deeply regret reading it. Some of the fluff bombs and the ending was just too much for me.

 

I guess that is how Garro and Loken and the rest could be grey knights. Psychic powers evolving thanks to the Emperor's gene-seed.

 

And there is no doubt as to who this mysterious knight is, it is Zahariel. There are more than enough hints to reach that conclusion with 99.9% accuracy.

[Sothalor]

Haven't read it yet, just been picking up spoilers here and there.

 

 

- Epithemeus gets a horrible fate at the hands of Abaddon

- The Grey Knights are aware in some measure about what the Dark Angels get up to, hunting for prisoners and transporting them to the Rock

- Abaddon appears to be aware of the identities of some of the founding Grand Masters. He mentions 'the Ultramarine,' almost certainly Rubio. He also mentions Epithemeus can't be his 'erstwhile brother' because he watched him die. This seems likely to be Loken, given what's been happening in the HH. It's still up in the air as to whether or not he meant the duel on Isstvan III or if they meet again at some later date.

 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Where does the 4++ come form?  Is it part of the Cataphractii Terminator armour?  Does said armour not allow you to Deep Strike like TDA?  If it does, he doesn't need DS as a seperate rule.

 

Yeah Cataphractii plate gives him a 4+ invul. It also doesn't have Deepstrike normally, so I just added the rule in for completeness. 

 

 

Choosing Powers is far too good.  I know FW have started the precedent.

 

Not really, we can already do it with our codex powers, and the idea of 'choosing' from Divination is a joke (every power is relevant no matter what you roll, especially the Primaris). Also, he's Landraider price without Eternal Warrior or AP2 melee, so I feel it isn't that OP. 

 

Does he have a NFH in the book (not read it yet!)?  Would a Bolt Pistol give him an extra Attack?  Is it wise to give him a Bolt Pistol while wearing Terminator Armour ( I can't think of any other character that has a BP in TDA).

Yeah that is his actual stated weaponry. I think later on in the book he scavenges a bolter from the enemy, but he's usually just got a bolt pistol and his halberd. 

 

Um, what? Where have you got that from? If the original Grand Masters were recruited from their Legions, they would have the geneseed of their original Primarchs. I've never read anything about "hot-swapping" Astartes organs in existing Space Marines.

'Pandorax' explains that the founding eight Grandmasters had to give up their original lineage for their new brotherhood. That meant becoming psykers, so they could teach the recruits everything they knew about Astartes warfare as well as the new training against Daemons the Sigilite had provided them with. It makes sense, you can't train new Knights without being a psyker yourself. Its likely they were all latents beforehand (I know the Luna Wolf was), but only a few were true Librarians before induction. Remember, the Emperor's gene-seed is what lets them resist the warp so well (along with self-discipline too and their training). 

 

Abaddon appears to be aware of the identities of some of the founding Grand Masters. He mentions 'the Ultramarine,' almost certainly Rubio. He also mentions Epithemeus can't be his 'erstwhile brother' because he watched him die. This seems likely to be Loken, given what's been happening in the HH. It's still up in the air as to whether or not he meant the duel on Isstvan III or if they meet again at some later date

No its not Loken, its another Luna Wolf. 'The Outcast Dead' introduced him, 'Wolf Hunt' concluded his story being recruited by the Sigilite to be one of the founding eight. 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Severian_(The_Wolf)#.UnhLUvlmigI

[VVolf]

Just finished reading it (thanks for starting the thread otherwise I would have missed it)... Wow.

 

So it gives more info about the geneseed swapping, training, situation of the galaxy and wargear (cataphractii, halberd and bolt pistol? No sign of heraldry or hexagrammic wards)

 

Think they made Draigo alot more human. Not a fan of the back and forth with the DA or that he can beat some badass daemons but not a plague marine. I've always seen him as a Epimetheus type character funnily enough. Will have to read his warlord book when its released.

 

And the ending? Booo - I warmed up to Epi and was even thinking of fluff regarding his return to the chapter but that was an horrific end, I would have prefered him killed in a duel, pissing off into the warp or taken by the DA - anything but what he got

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

So it gives more info about the geneseed swapping, training, situation of the galaxy and wargear (cataphractii, halberd and bolt pistol? No sign of heraldry or hexagrammic wards)

Well remember, the first Grey Knights hail from pretty much straight after the Heresy. Ceremonial/relic wargear would've been awarded to the founding Grandmasters, and none of the advancements of the current 41st millennium had occurred (ie its possible the integrated wrist storm bolter came after the Heresy, it certainly doesn't appear anywhere else in the Adeptus Astartes armour variants). As I recall Zahariel fought with a sword during his time as an Astartes, but perhaps when he started fighting as a Grey Knight, he found the halberd better. It's also possible, like his armour, the halberd is a ceremonial weapon. 

 

Think they made Draigo alot more human. Not a fan of the back and forth with the DA or that he can beat some badass daemons but not a plague marine. I've always seen him as a Epimetheus type character funnily enough. Will have to read his warlord book when its released. 

I found his interactions with Azrael hinting at a past falling out. It seemed like they hated eachother long before Pythos. Be interesting to see what exactly is the cause of their feud. I'm guessing something  along the lines of Draigo got caught between Azrael and a Fallen. 

 

And the ending? Booo - I warmed up to Epi and was even thinking of fluff regarding his return to the chapter but that was an horrific end, I would have prefered him killed in a duel, pissing off into the warp or taken by the DA - anything but what he got 

Well, Epithemeus brought it on himself by being lured into Abbadon's trap. He knew the Knight felt obligated to protect the Guardsmen stationed on the surface, so he hit them until Epithemeus was well and truly hooked on the hunt. The removal of his gene-seend is very worrying though, in the hands of Abbadon (and by extension Fabius Bile) that's not going to end well. I'm hoping GW return the storyline to the 13th Crusade, they keep stopping short of it. 

[VVolf]

From what I understand of GW at the moment they want it kept just before the 13th crusade kicks off - only a few books dip after and none recent - for the whole teetering on the edge thing. I would like to read more on Epi but part of the reason i'm not liking it is that if we do get closure, it probably won't be for years.

 

I understand why it happened though, just feel like it was tragic considering he is one of the protaganists.

 

The Draigo/DA (wasn't just azrael giving grief) I found childish, in the same vein as the fleet action before it with the bickering captains - it went beyond rivalry to pettyness at times. I didn't expect that from commanders, let alone the Supreme Grand Masters. Its propbably due to me not seeing the 41st millenium like that.

 

Great book though - lots of insights and I liked seeing the newer units in the book, even if there felt like abit of name dropping lol.

[ShadowMaster]

 

 

So it gives more info about the geneseed swapping, training, situation of the galaxy and wargear (cataphractii, halberd and bolt pistol? No sign of heraldry or hexagrammic wards)

Well remember, the first Grey Knights hail from pretty much straight after the Heresy. Ceremonial/relic wargear would've been awarded to the founding Grandmasters, and none of the advancements of the current 41st millennium had occurred (ie its possible the integrated wrist storm bolter came after the Heresy, it certainly doesn't appear anywhere else in the Adeptus Astartes armour variants). As I recall Zahariel fought with a sword during his time as an Astartes, but perhaps when he started fighting as a Grey Knight, he found the halberd better. It's also possible, like his armour, the halberd is a ceremonial weapon. 

 

Think they made Draigo alot more human. Not a fan of the back and forth with the DA or that he can beat some badass daemons but not a plague marine. I've always seen him as a Epimetheus type character funnily enough. Will have to read his warlord book when its released. 

I found his interactions with Azrael hinting at a past falling out. It seemed like they hated eachother long before Pythos. Be interesting to see what exactly is the cause of their feud. I'm guessing something  along the lines of Draigo got caught between Azrael and a Fallen. 

 

And the ending? Booo - I warmed up to Epi and was even thinking of fluff regarding his return to the chapter but that was an horrific end, I would have prefered him killed in a duel, pissing off into the warp or taken by the DA - anything but what he got 

Well, Epithemeus brought it on himself by being lured into Abbadon's trap. He knew the Knight felt obligated to protect the Guardsmen stationed on the surface, so he hit them until Epithemeus was well and truly hooked on the hunt. The removal of his gene-seend is very worrying though, in the hands of Abbadon (and by extension Fabius Bile) that's not going to end well. I'm hoping GW return the storyline to the 13th Crusade, they keep stopping short of it. 

 

 

Epithemeus being lured into Abbadon's trap was so cheap.

 

The geneseed dropping into Bile's hands means nothing, the moron is way too stupid to put it to good use. He lacks the skills to even comprehend a drop of the Emperor's genius. If you put the geneseed into a traitor marine he would instantly realign with the Imperium. And don't you think that during 10k years that chaos has not gotten their hands on GK gene-seed?

 

The whole episode is ludicrous.

 

/End Rant/

[Vesper]

 

The geneseed dropping into Bile's hands means nothing, the moron is way

too stupid to put it to good use. He lacks the skills to even comprehend

a drop of the Emperor's genius. If you put the geneseed into a traitor

marine he would instantly realign with the Imperium. And don't you think

that during 10k years that chaos has not gotten their hands on GK

gene-seed?

Fabius ? The guy who uncovered the way to produce primarchs ? Yeah, what a dummy.

On the whole geneseed of the emperor making people turn good guy, well, that's not really well thought and a funny shortcut that is, in the end, ridiculous.

What's interesting is that the geneseed of the poor lad is the one that is at the origin of the GK chapter. It's fresh from the emperor. Even if Abaddon already offed a few founding members of the GK, that juice sure might be quite valuable. Even more so if you're the biological genius that Fabius is.

I'm quite interested in knowing why Abaddon gives the seeds to Fabius. If someone can come up with an answer, I would appreciate it.

 

And the Emperor's genius is pretty funny. The guy creates the Primarchs in a way supposed to make them safe from Chaos' predations. A few years later, half of those fall to Chaos.

[Gentlemanloser]

To make corrupted anti-Knights. ;)

 

Now you too can play a GK that's fallen to Chaos!  Just add spikes!

[boreas]

Mind you, maybe this is Abbadon's goal to get GK geneseed. He's tired of being so angry all the time. And spiky too.

[VVolf]

Isn't the act of giving geneseed to Fabius meant to secure his help in the next crusade? Same as the deal with the nurgle cult? Its mentioned right at the end.

 

That would mean that ultimately Abbadon wouldn't care either way what it was used for as long as he got his men/supplies/etc. Although he lost again he gained what he wanted from the war and makes him alittle smarter then he is often portrayed.

 

Epi will either be tortured then killed or forced to turn to the dark side I think. Either way - its Ed Stark all over again :/

 

Glad to see a Jokaero at last and a sense of how they fit in. Reminds me of R2-D2.

[ShadowMaster]

 

 

The geneseed dropping into Bile's hands means nothing, the moron is way

too stupid to put it to good use. He lacks the skills to even comprehend

a drop of the Emperor's genius. If you put the geneseed into a traitor

marine he would instantly realign with the Imperium. And don't you think

that during 10k years that chaos has not gotten their hands on GK

gene-seed?

Fabius ? The guy who uncovered the way to produce primarchs ? Yeah, what a dummy.

On the whole geneseed of the emperor making people turn good guy, well, that's not really well thought and a funny shortcut that is, in the end, ridiculous.

What's interesting is that the geneseed of the poor lad is the one that is at the origin of the GK chapter. It's fresh from the emperor. Even if Abaddon already offed a few founding members of the GK, that juice sure might be quite valuable. Even more so if you're the biological genius that Fabius is.

I'm quite interested in knowing why Abaddon gives the seeds to Fabius. If someone can come up with an answer, I would appreciate it.

 

And the Emperor's genius is pretty funny. The guy creates the Primarchs in a way supposed to make them safe from Chaos' predations. A few years later, half of those fall to Chaos.

 

 

produce primarchs? you mean cloned?

[Vesper]

No, even if he also masters the cloning process (something we'll witness in AD-B's Talon of Horus), he claims he knows how to actually produce Primarchs.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

he claims he knows how to actually produce Primarchs

 

Can we take his claims at face value?  Chaos, not really known to be trustworthy! :P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

The Draigo/DA (wasn't just azrael giving grief) I found childish, in the same vein as the fleet action before it with the bickering captains - it went beyond rivalry to pettyness at times. I didn't expect that from commanders, let alone the Supreme Grand Masters. Its propbably due to me not seeing the 41st millenium like that.

Eh, it wasn't so bad. They have obviously different views on how the war should be prosecuted, and they've got personal vendettas against eachother for as yet undisclosed reasons. (shrug) I've seen more illogical characterization in BL work before. 

 

The geneseed dropping into Bile's hands means nothing, the moron is way too stupid to put it to good use. He lacks the skills to even comprehend a drop of the Emperor's genius. If you put the geneseed into a traitor marine he would instantly realign with the Imperium. And don't you think that during 10k years that chaos has not gotten their hands on GK gene-seed?

Fabius is probably the foremost expert on gene-seed in the galaxy, next to the Emperor and maybe a few Mechanicum Biologis adepts. Considering he has already made serious progress towards understanding how it all works (the Blood Angel Chapter war series shows he's progressed to the point of being able to corrupt gene-seed successfully), it is worrying he has Knight gene-seed. Also, it's entirely possible they've never gotten their hands on it before, Knights generally fight in brotherhoods and they don't usually leave intact gene-seed if they fall (given their chosen prey). Epithemeus was vulnerable precisely because he had no one else to fight with, he was all alone. 

 

On the whole geneseed of the emperor making people turn good guy, well, that's not really well thought and a funny shortcut that is, in the end, ridiculous.

That's not it at all. Zahariel would've had to make the hardest choice of his life, giving up the Lion and his Legion. Astartes, any more than men, aren't inherently good or evil. They're defined by the choices they make. The gene-seed didn't make him bad or good, it was a gift to aid him in his next brotherhood. As I mentioned before, they couldn't train new Knights without being Grey Knights themselves, and that requires the Emperor's gene-seed. It's an upgrade, for sure, but its no guarantee of loyalty. 

 

'm quite interested in knowing why Abaddon gives the seeds to Fabius. If someone can come up with an answer, I would appreciate it.

To do what he does best? Pretty obvious they're looking to make better Astartes for the war ahead. 

 

 

And the Emperor's genius is pretty funny. The guy creates the Primarchs in a way supposed to make them safe from Chaos' predations. A few years later, half of those fall to Chaos.

 

No, I think it's more complicated than that. There is a lot of evidence to suggest the Emperor foresaw the Horus Heresy. You can see a bit of that in the way he balanced each one against another, and that he mentored some whilst ignoring others. It's probable he didn't know precisely who would turn against him, but he knew at least some would. 

 

 

No, even if he also masters the cloning process (something we'll witness in AD-B's Talon of Horus), he claims he knows how to actually produce Primarchs.

 

Well, I suppose it's possible, but with Fabius the results may not match his claims. His 'new men' Astartes are arguably better than the originals, but they're prone to insanity or a breakdown of their internal organs from overstress. Be interesting to see what he ends up making. The Primarchs were pretty unique beings, they're different even from Astartes (Apothecaries regularly state they have no clue what the hell how a Primarch's bio-chemistry or internal organs are supposed to function, or even what they are). The gene-seed is lik a byproduct almost, Primarchs have to made from scratch. 

[Vesper]

 

 

'm quite interested in knowing why Abaddon gives the seeds to Fabius. If someone can come up with an answer, I would appreciate it.

To do what he does best? Pretty obvious they're looking to make better Astartes for the war ahead.

Or simply more astartes. That's, I suppose, a fine way to pay Fabius for his support. Anyhow, I could come up with various reasons, but I was more interested in what's actually written in the book about that perticular subject.

 

 

No, I think it's more complicated than that. There is a lot of evidence

to suggest the Emperor foresaw the Horus Heresy. You can see a bit of

that in the way he balanced each one against another, and that he

mentored some whilst ignoring others. It's probable he didn't know

precisely who would turn against him, but he knew at least some would.

"The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically engeneered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped that they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos."

 

Realm of Chaos : The Lost and the Damned - page 177.

[gogmagog]

This story makes a sad panda!

[Haranin]

where is Epithemeus' stat line and fluff found (apoc book, or novel?)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Or simply more astartes. That's, I suppose, a fine way to pay Fabius for his support. Anyhow, I could come up with various reasons, but I was more interested in what's actually written in the book about that perticular subject.

Abbadon doesn't actually say, neither does Fabius. But like I said, knowing both of their history, it can't be anything good. Fabius is a pretty evil genius when it comes to Astartes biology. Maybe a bio-engineered plague to wipe out the loyalist Astartes? Be a massive tactical advantage if they could pull it off, the whole reason the Imperium hasn't fallen apart is the Chapters. 

 

"The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically engeneered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped that they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos."

 

Realm of Chaos : The Lost and the Damned - page 177.

>hoped

Precisely. He had hoped they would prove immune, Unfortunately, he underestimated how much humanity was still left in the Primarchs. To be fair though, the Ruinous Powers did go to great lengths to corrupt Horus and the others. I believe they approached just about every Primarch they could, with some outright rejecting it, others embracing it. 

 

The real kicker to the Heresy is how the Four showed Horus a vision of the future that was actually true, but skewed in such a way as to bias him against his father. They showed him a future where the Crusade was over and the Primarchs were just a memory immortalised in statues on Terra. They cut right into Horus's pride and his ambition, as well as his relationship to the Emperor. 

 

Also, we have from an old Thunder Warrior captain the allegory of how their 'final' battle didn't really take place the way history says it did. He explains in 'The Outcast Dead' that the Emperor plans to 'retire' the Astartes in the same manner, once the Crusade is won. The Primarchs and their Astartes sons are not intended to last forever, they have no purpose in peacetime so like the Thunder Warriors the Emperor has plans to eliminate them. 

 

 

 

where is Epithemeus' stat line and fluff found (apoc book, or novel?)

 

No statline, I just made it up based on what I think he should be like. He's a side character in 'Pandorax' a new novel from BL.