Throwing my codex across the room aka redeem me

[Karrde]

I've collected and played Dark Angels since first edition 40k. I've flirted with many other armies as diversions, but the mighty green line has always been my passion. I currently have 2 fully painted battle companies, a full Deathwing and 90 scouts all with multiple support vehicles.

 

However after the last two weekends I think I may give up and go xenos...

 

Having moved recently I've got some old friends and family members together to play 40k when we can and the last two weekends have seen some small games to help us learn 6th edition rules. I've been unlucky and people can see the pain as another triple snake eyes comes up and despite my awesome strategies it's my army that keeps letting me down. So before I go all gribbly, I thought I'd try and find some help.

 

We are currently playing 500 point games on 4x4 tables with random missions each game.

 

The games I've really struggled are:

 

- The Tau I can't out shoot them and with a command unit throwing out 27 dice of death a turn, then 12 fire warriors pumping out 12x3xS5 shots within 15 inches I'm lucky if anything makes it into their half of the board. They tend to all clump together and then move to objective as a pack. 

- The Necron have units of 15 warriors with a lord and im lucky if I can keep 2 or 3 down a turn from sustained fire. The rest of his army is made up of destroyers that zoom round finishing off lone units and I can't bring enough fire power to them.

 

The other players are eldar who seem to be working out how to play as we go along so getting scarier each game and a chaos marine army that I'm on par with and struggle equally against the xenos.  

 

I've been playing with a mix of tactical squads, librarian and then about 150 points of support choices e.g. rifleman dread, scouts, predator.

 

We're upping the games to 1,000 next and I just see pain doubled!  This is a plea to my fellow green armoured brethren - save me!

[Biggabertha]

It sounds like a really unfortunate turn of events...

 

However, without stepping on your toes, I think you need to re-think your approach - but the low points does present a small problem.

 

I think the biggest thing is not using all you have available to you: Deep Striking your Deathwing (or Veteran/Command Squad in a Drop Pod, all armed with (combi) Flamers) into the heart of his units would completely put a huge step towards squashing any Tau, Necron or other Xenos filth that have better range than you. Support them with some solid firepower, ones you can find from the Ravenwing or from your Assault Squad if you wish to stick to Greenwing.

 

Laying down the hurt from afar with a Predator Annihilator (Twin Linked Lascannon Turret, Lascannon Sponsons) or a team of Lascannon and Missile Launcher Devastators (remember your Sergeant can use his Signum to power up one Marine's Ballistic Skill to 5!) to bring down anything threatening.

 

Finally, try the Whirlwind: the Whirlwind is like... Anti-Xenos filth. Taking one or two with you and abusing the new rule on how it kills from the centre is the key to using it like a Precision Sniper Rifle. Could be that annoying Sergeant with a Powerfist or that Marine with a template weapon or even that pesky Commander from The Imperial Guard!

 

 

Either way - you've been stubborn to stick with the First Legion - you can continue to stand by them..! (And poor doce rolls will persist into xenos/heretic armies... believe me...)

[Brother dean]

Well...  It doesnt help that you are playing against three of the most overpowerd codexes in the game.  If you are finding that pure ranged firepower will not kill something then maybe it is time to get into their face and smack them with a pointy stick or a "Left Hand of Doom".

 

I haven't had a Tau game since I got my Ravenwing rolling but I suspect that RW Black Knights might do okay for a close combat unit, especially with a Bike Librarian along with a Power Field Generator to help protect against the overwatch fire.  (Brrr....  Overwatch fire...)  They can still be killed in HtH if you can get into HtH...

 

Necrons require a terminator squad to get in close and fist them to death (after taking a round of shooting) and not having another squad nearby for them to WBB into...  (your opponent knows this tho and will bunch his units...)

 

Eldar are the most difficult to get to because they mainly excel at the same things you do...  Fast, overwhelming, close in firepower.  Again, I would lean on the Ravenwing to get around the back of the Wave serpents to take them down from behind their shields.

 

Now your points level is probably the real problem.  For 500 points you really cant bring the kind of knives to the table that others can...   I think you might do better as the points levels go up.  I have the best success at the 1500 point level with my Ravenwing with a squad of DW thrown in...

 

Remember that Space Marine armies are usually a "Jack of all Trades" army and that specifically necrons and Tau are "Shooty" armies and trying to out shoot a shooty army will usually end in tears.  Have you tried the Banner of Devastation crutch?  It helps, really...

[FerociousBeast]

I think we need to know a little more about your list.

[Brother dean]

And your opponents lists..

 

And what other models you have to work with to put into your list.

[Lucien Eilam]

If you're playing against friends and family members, my first thought would be to come up with some different scenarios.

 

You're always going to be at a disadvantage playing the standard missions against Tau and Necrons, but you might get a more even game playing a cool themed scenario where, say, you have to capture a Fallen Angel who's been collaborating with the Tau and is currently located in the dense and dangerous terrain of a promethium refinery, instead of marching across an open killing field toward a unstoppable firing line, which is what often ends up happening with a mission like Crusade or Purge the Alien.

[Darkangeldentist]

I echo the requests for more information about what you've been playing and more info about the lists you are facing, particularly the Tau.

 

That said I do have a few guidelines that I would suggest to help make up a relatively solid 500pt core that you can easily expand upon for larger games.

 

A librarian is both our cheapest HQ option but also the best supporting choice we have, if you stick to mastery level 1 you can comfortably keep his cost below 100pts which is invaluable at such low point levels. Prescience is also an easy plug and play power that will help everything else in the army. I would not dismiss other disciplines if you have a plan for the options they can open up but divination powers are the easiest to use and get results from.

 

Drop pod with command squad with special weapons or a dreadnought with heavy flamer. Either unit coming down on turn one right next to the enemy should give them fits and the enhanced deployment flexibility that 6th edition brought units coming down out of drop pods means it's easier to use them aggressively. This is particularly good for template weapons. Most of the xenos lists you have described have 4+ saves on the core troops and a heavy flamer can wipe a whole unit out in a single gout of promethium. Either choice can also be kept to a cost less than 200pts including the drop pod and should pose a troublesome threat for them to deal with. Dreadnought would get my vote because of the heavy flamer.

 

Take a couple of small tactical squads with just a heavy weapon but do not be afraid to move them when the situation requires it. 6 tactical marines with a plasma cannon costs just under 100pts and gives you a great heavy weapon to tackle elite infantry from outside a lot of retaliation range and enough bolter grunts to both chuck out a respectable number of shots at rapid fire range but also enought bullet catchers to keep the heavy weapon relatively safe for a couple of turn if you really need that specialist gun.

 

 

So at 500pts I would take a Librarian, two tactical squads (one with just a plasma cannon and the other however you want to take up the left over points) and a venerable dreadnought in a drop pod. The librarian deploys with the tactical marines while the drop pod dreadnought comes down as an initial alpha strike unit to gut the most vulnerable part of their army. Don't be afraid to have the Librarian and a tactical squad move around to claim or threaten objectives and be prepared to sacrifice a turns shooting so you can run into position.

 

Hope this helps and I wish you the best of luck.

[Karrde]

Wow thanks for the quick response.

 

My most core at 500 points has been:

- 10 man tactical split into 2 with plasma and missile launcher

- 5 man tactical squad with flamer

- Librarian with telepathy and conversion field

 

Then from there i've mixed up a bit - more tactical marines, a rifleman dread, a razorback with assault cannons.

 

Choice wise my collection includes pretty much anything possible (though only one drop pod...)

 

At 500 points so far common Necron is 30 warriors, destroyers, lord and erm heavy weapon necron (forget the name) and Tau were 3 crisis suits with twin linked burst cannons and plasma rifles with a variety of drones, ethereal and fire warriors.

 

500 points is designed to help our crusty minds learn the rules (I think we use the expression 'in another version you could XYZ' about fifty times a game) and the scenarios have definitely not been friendly 'cross the boards open ground to retrieve the relic under the full guns of the Tau...'

 

Again cheers so far!

[Varizel]

I'm sorry to hear that brother... but have you tried whirlwind? i tried it against tau last time... and it was pretty awesome taking out those firewarriors or those pathfinders...even if they hide behind ruins/inside area terrains and whatnot. ESPECIALLY if they hide behind some debris, like... Aegis Defense Line. Whirlwind totally bypass that thing and screw them over. Honest to goodness though... i got nothing but good things to say about whirlwind this edition. Too many people taking el cheapo infantries to hold their objectives, and whirlwind wreck their faces sooo hard, it was awesome. It was cheap as chip too and with only 1 single large blast, people tends to ignores it, until it blow their el cheapo infantries apart.

 

Best point i've spent on the heavy support in my meta, i think. 

[Xenith]

Jumping in, tactical squads are not the most killy things in the list, and a 10 man one at 500pts is hamstringing you. At such low pts levels, you really need to trim all fat from your lists.

 

Whirlwinds, as I have said for years, are a problem for non-MEQ. Eldar hate them. Tau hate them. Necrons hate them. Get one and your friends will hate you.

 

I'd go with a list base of:

 

Librarian.

5 tacticals - missile launcher

5 tacticals - plasma gun

 

for something like 235pts.

 

You have 265pts to field the nasty:

Dread in a pod with heavy flamer

Whirlwind

Deathwing with heavy flamer.

[bystrom]

I would definitely suggest adding more terrain in that case, both line-of-sight blockers, area terrain and other terrain. It won't exactly hinder most of the things you've listed, but it makes the game more interesting at least and give you some options that could turn the game in your favour.

How exactly have you been playing with terrain? When we started we used this terrain set-up. We've now started moving away from this for variety's sake and have started using alternating terrain set-up. Since our terrain pieces have been towards the larger size, we've not used D3 terrain pieces per 2"x2", as that would have almost covered the whole board in terrain We do like terrain, so prefer covering more than less.

Problem with 500 pts is that the game isn't very balanced at such low point costs. It'll get slightly better at higher point costs, at the very least against eldar (haven't played tau/necrons). That said, whirlwind, being so cheap and effective against xenos is a great pick. Just think where you deploy it so it doesn't die on the first turn. It is as weak as a rhino, after all. Likewise, a bog standard librarian is also cheap and still helps your army. It leaves plenty of points to add some troops and some variety of killers.

EDIT: well, not plenty, but enough for 2 small troop choices and one more unit.

[Karrde]

I've been running two tables in my lounge, one with my city fight terrain and one with my outside terrain aka a few craters. Looks like I may need to deploy my terrain making skills as well as strategy skills and begging for help skills!

[FerociousBeast]

Allow me to echo the whirlie recommendation. I would also say to ditch the flamer in the tac squad unless you give them a drop pod. You have to march to get any use out of it in a foot slogging unit, and Tau and Necrons love it when you march.

 

You need to deepstrike or pod some close combat unit, like a dread or assault squad, up close and personal with the shooty lists. Don't let them play their stand and shoot game. If you let them play the game they want to play you are at a severe disadvantage.

 

As for the librarian, why a conversion field? The Power Field Generator is a much better option.

[johnyocum]

For 500 points, I'm in agreement with the Librarian and 2 minimal tac squads, Plas Cannon and ML being good weapons there.

 

If you can afford a 5-man Dev, those will cause a lot of havoc with those xenos armies (especially the heavy bolters and the plas cannons), and I think that they'd work great with a Whirlwind.  I've not used a Whirlwind in a long time, but when I did, it was hurting my enemy until he dropped in one of his melta vet squads within melta range.

[Pyro X]

do you take a lvl 2 librarian? if so it may be too much cost at 500 points, unless you haev points to drop for it. I did a campaign last month at 500 points vs eldar (granted he didn't have a great list) you may think of taking rhinos or razorbacks to help get that unit to the targets faster. if they spam str 5 shots they would be glancing front / side armor on 6s and wasting 1 group of shots to MAYBE glance you to death then you have a squad ready and out of the box unless you maybe used smoke / PFG to get cover saves after the glances.

 

a list I used during the 500 game was

lvl 2 librarian

5m tac w/ H plasma, plsama pistol on sgt

8m tac w/ H plasma, plsama pistol on sgt

5m scout w/ camo cloaks, sniper rifles, ML w/ flakk missles

493 points

 

Big thing to remember, like someone said, you don't have to kill the other side to win always, finish the mission gives you alot of points. If you can kill something 1st turn before they can, thats a victory point. Tau, Eldar, and sometimes even Nercons don't always cross the board because they like to shoot more than anything, easy for you to get line breaker than them. One way to make it easier to get across the board if your using rhinos and razorbacks would also be to remember how easy it is to get cover saves for transports (pg 75 BRB). The game starts at placing terrain. Make sure you don't screw yourself during placement, this is huge!. Lets say your playing tau and your using the list I just posted. He places a ruins with 2 levels, enough for a large group of fire warriors to hide in. Granted you don't know if he will get that side of the board because you havn't rolled to see who gets what side. So what do you do? place terrain in the middle so if you have to advance to that building, how can you give yourself cover from said fire warriors? use another building outside his deployment to totally block LoS (making markerlights not help from removing your coversave) and denying his target all together (and place your scouts in it to boot). I think that when people play tau, eldar, and necrons they know they need to get into hand to hand asap, its been said to death. Make sure that, even in friendly games, I would follow the rules or make sure that both players have input on how the board is setup. Else your just setting yourself for a game stacked against you before turn one.

o 1 more thing, at that point list, 5m dev is good and you may think about a ADL w/ or w/out the weapon it can get also, but I still wouldn't try and out gun eldar, tau, and necrons.

[Grotsmasha]

One thing I don't think anyone has pointed out yet is (unless it's changes for 6th ed.) Tau still only Rapid Fire at 12", not 15".

 

Cheers,

Jono

[bystrom]

One thing I don't think anyone has pointed out yet is (unless it's changes for 6th ed.) Tau still only Rapid Fire at 12", not 15".

 

Cheers,

Jono

Its half distance in 6th, so 15".

[facmanpob]

I'll echo what others have said.... take a Whirlwind! It's cheap and effective against Tau and Necrons...

[march10k]

At 1000 points, I would do a librarian with an auspex, an infravisor, prescience, and a PFG leading a full ten devastators with four lascannons, two ten man tactical squads with plas/plas, two whirlwinds, and five black knights with meltabombs on the huntmaster.

 

At 500 points...yuck.  Marines really blow at 500 points.  Librarian is definitely the right choice because he's so cheap.  I wouldn't give him any upgrades whatsoever.  Two plas/plas tactical squads plus the librarian and you're at 405 points.  I'd say you have three options. A predator with autocannon and dual heavy bolters is exactly 95 points.  A Whirlwind leaves you with enough points to give both sergeants power swords, but against the three enemies you listed, those are of dubious value.  Or, you can get three ravenwing bikes with dual flamers and an auspex for the librarian.  Personally?  I'd take the predator.  It's eight heavy weapons shots that wound all three armies that you mentioned on 2+ and AP4, and the tank is AV13.  In a 500 point game, AV13 is pretty tough.  Oh, and if the tau HQ is throwing off "27 dice of death per turn," make him waste that...definitely combat-squad...oh, look, overkill.  You killed each man 3 times, what a shame!

[Gillyfish]

I agree with much of what's been suggested. 500 point games can be a great way to learn the game, but the list restrictions can be prohibitive at that points level.

 

Back in 4th edition, there used to be a version of the game for 500 point battles called combat patrol.  That didn't require you to have an HQ and you were only required to take one troops choice. However, models with 2+ saves were forbidden and I think so were vehicles with AV12 or more (if memory serves). I found it was a good format for trying out new units and learning how they worked. In that format, fast moving units were very potent, so landspeeders and assault squads (in particular) did well.

 

Maybe try using those rules to add a little more variety to the games. It will also give you access to some more suitable units.

[Knight of the Raven]

400 points, actually. Of course, back then, a naked 2 wounds space marine captain didn't come with a iron halo and costed 60 points... And before the codex was updated, you could have a naked tactical sergeant as HQ for 30 points!

 

Patrol Combat, page 182, 4th edition rulebook:

1+ troop

0-1 headquarters

No model can have more than 2 wounds

No special character

No 2+ save of any kind

Vehicles can't have a combined (front, rear and side once) armor rating higher than 32

No artillery weapon

1.20m x 1.20m board

 

I'd advise to ban fliers as well, just to avoid that pesky heldrake.

[Brother dean]

Not just the Helldrake....   Most armies wont be able to field any counter for flyers at 500...

[Karrde]

I was tempted to field a nephilim for comedy value...

[Interrogator Stobz]

If you are allowed 'em-take 'em imho. The game is a tad broken with regard to balance anyway, why fight it? Just lose like a gentleman/lady ;)

 

I'd say the Hellvomitchicken has too much combined AV to be allowed in Cbt Ptl anyways...That makes the Nephilm an actual viable choice (can't remember the combined AV at work but think it is low so correct me if I'm wrong).

[[TA]Typher]

I play for fun. So I usually skip playing against broken codexes like Tau. It's just not fun.  Riptide or missile broadside spam gets old real quick. The last game I played two riptides and 6 broadsides all used interceptor (the broadsides don't need line of sight for smart missiles) and then they support fired immediately afterward as another unit charged them, even though the wouldn't be able to shoot in their next shooting phase. While this is not against the rules it is rather cheesy. Having a commander with a drone controller and 8+ missile drones = a lot of super cheap units that that hit on BS5.

 

My point is that the game should be fun for you. If it's not then change it up. Play another army, or don't play against those broken codexes. Going to my local shop at watching the Tau players watching other people play makes my happy.