Vengeful Spirit

[Kol Saresk]

Loken dying was a inspiring moment, touching in it's intensity, and solidified that the brotherhood and unity of purpose of the Legions was gone forever.

 

Him coming back was the worst damn thing ever. Period.

 

Whoever came up with that brainfart, should be thrown out the closest airlock. Or to the Night Lords.

Or to Heathens. For some reason I imagine that being worse than the Night Lords.

[Vazzy]

 

Loken dying was a inspiring moment, touching in it's intensity, and solidified that the brotherhood and unity of purpose of the Legions was gone forever.

 

Him coming back was the worst damn thing ever. Period.

 

Whoever came up with that brainfart, should be thrown out the closest airlock. Or to the Night Lords.

Or to Heathens. For some reason I imagine that being worse than the Night Lords.

Shhhh Kol, We don't talk about that punishment. 

[Hyaenidae]

Even after a -y day, y'all were still able to drag a laugh out of me.

Thanks, gents.

(For reals, though. Airlock for the Loken-reviver)

[Cerbero666]

Well if you accept it, Loken has to come back to end the series with the same sentence he started it. It would be a full circle IMO. But yes the way they take him back in the play, in an audiobook...Maybe if they had done it in a novel, with a good damn and slow narrative (For example in Vengeful Spirit, which would have been perfect given the name of the book) we could accept his return. I don't really like all the Errant Knights thing right now, BL it's doing it in the shadows of the series, what is appropriate yes, but it is an important part of the Heresy. I like the audiobooks but everybody don't, if they want to learn about that part of the Heresy they have to buy them anyway? IMO it deserves a novel or an anthology (for a return of the "was not important?" Keeler, and other old friends). It's a mess too, the first appearance of Varren was in Legion of One (that where Loken cames back) then it was explained how he got there in Sword of Truth, but after Legion of One, what is confusing. All those stories should have been put together in a novel or an anthology and maybe we would not being so angry about Loken's return because it would have been explained, justified, decorated in a way that we could say that there's more development there than just: "He is alive because he is awesome and stuff".

 

About Lotara, her death would be a final nail in Khârn's mind coffin. Right now she's the only person he trusts. I can see she dying on Terra, laughing in a burning bridge aboard the Conqueror, while the ship is colliding against an important loyalist flagship or an important ground defensive system. I wouldn't like her turning daemon, because she isn't that far away. She is ambitious and prideful, and she's in the traitor side because her ship is Angron's flagship, don't really think she believes in the "cause" to fall that far. Guess we will discover it soon. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Well if you accept it, Loken has to come back to end the series with the same sentence he started it. It would be a full circle IMO.

 

 

If people accept this, it might mean there was foreshadowing involved.  That is a bridge too far for some.  Safer to go with the appeasement of us fanboys. 

[Cerbero666]

 

Well if you accept it, Loken has to come back to end the series with the same sentence he started it. It would be a full circle IMO.

 

 

If people accept this, it might mean there was foreshadowing involved.  That is a bridge too far for some.  Safer to go with the appeasement of us fanboys. 

 

Yes I was trying to find some positive point in his return but yes, it's too forced anyway.

[Balthamal]

I'm not sure about Lotarra's death pushing Khârn over the edge. I'm quite taken with the idea someone posted in another thread of Khârn hacking his way to the walls only to run into Sigismund, growl "Sanguinis Extremis" and have some epic duel that lives in the memory before he get's butchered and Sigismund carves his merry way through another 50 captains/champions/daemons including (I'm ferverently hoping) Sevatar.

 

When Khârn has his resurrection however and finds out she's dead...maybe he'll give Delvarus a proper beating for letting her die this time

[calgar101]

To have Loken he should not have died; he should either have died on Istvaan 3 or survived it. The last we see of him in the book are the bombs beginning to fall and he is in a hopeless position. We know some loyalists survived, why not have a group of them find Loken and free him? Then together they manage to capture a Stormbird or such with a larger force, who in turn capture a frigate perhaps and flee to Terra? Even this would be quite a feat but still possible and wouldn't feel forced.

[Cerbero666]

To have Loken he should not have died; he should either have died on Istvaan 3 or survived it. The last we see of him in the book are the bombs beginning to fall and he is in a hopeless position. We know some loyalists survived, why not have a group of them find Loken and free him? Then together they manage to capture a Stormbird or such with a larger force, who in turn capture a frigate perhaps and flee to Terra? Even this would be quite a feat but still possible and wouldn't feel forced.

 

That was my first thought about the manner back in the day. But then Legion of One step in and well...now it's a fact that he was alone on Istvaan III for months. And the question about Rylanor and the secret hangar hangs in the air. 

[Olis]

Let's try to nudge this back on topic, please. We seem to have wandered into territory that could be best explored in another thread.

[miller_gooner]

True this has side tracked but Loken should appear in Vengeful Spirit!

 

I read this on ADB's site:

"Loken was always intended to survive, which is why Dan says on his videos and at numerous signings that “Loken is alive” and “Loken was always intended to survive”.

Although it does earlier mention how 'Loken had died in Galaxy in Flames, and it wasn’t written vaguely enough for a convincing return.'

[Karthak]

When Lotara dies, I'm going to weep like a bitch. I love reading her scenes. Right now I'm praying for ascension ala Valkia. It'd make the traitor in me very very happy. 

Nah. She's a pawn of the ruinous powers, like all others who sided with Horus. Ergo, she should die as humiliatingly and pointlessly as possible.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

When Lotara dies, I'm going to weep like a bitch. I love reading her scenes. Right now I'm praying for ascension ala Valkia. It'd make the traitor in me very very happy.

Nah. She's a pawn of the ruinous powers, like all others who sided with Horus. Ergo, she should die as humiliatingly and pointlessly as possible.

 

 

Currently the Emperor is a pawn of the Ruinious Powers since He is following a vision that was handed out by a warp-possessed astropath that says "Commit suicide while fightinng Horus, 'tis the only way".

[Rhetoricus]

Ok ima go right ahead and disagree with all the crazy cool kids :P. I like the fact that Loken survived. Survived. Not brought back to life. There is plenty of grimdark enough to go around for everyone. Thousands of loyalists are toast. Some of them will have been just as (possibly more) heroic then loken. He also hardly came out of it unscathed, he ended up mad as a box of frogs in party hats. What he's been through is pretty grimdark, I would even argue that him surviving is darker then him not (from his perspective)

Anyway this isn't new. Doyle did it with Holmes (who actually really did die and wasn't wearing power armour) and he's regarded as a literary genius.

(unless of course Loken did actually die in one of the millions of limited edition thingies ive yet to get my hands on. In that case ignore everything I just said and i'll go get my coat )

[Olis]

I think the issue is less the implied death and the literary resurrection, and more of how his character was reintroduced. The ways and means that he was found seemed... dubious (going by memory here) and, rather than him surviving with a scant few others, he was found to have survived alone for months against strange gribblies whilst (spoiler) talking to his dead friend/his dead friend's head.

 

 

Now then. Back to the topic at hand - Is that really the Vengeful Spirit in the background, or is it some other ship?

[AlabasterKnight]

"There is plenty of grimdark enough to go around for everyone."

 

Exactly.

[goosey_j]

I'm not sure about Lotarra's death pushing Khârn over the edge. I'm quite taken with the idea someone posted in another thread of Khârn hacking his way to the walls only to run into Sigismund, growl "Sanguinis Extremis" and have some epic duel that lives in the memory before he get's butchered and Sigismund carves his merry way through another 50 captains/champions/daemons including (I'm ferverently hoping) Sevatar.

 

This. So much this. Sigismund and Khârn have to fight, it's basically destiny after Betrayer. All of Khârn's friends are dead. How great would it be if his last 'sane' fight was with someone who was once one of his closest friends? It has to happen.

 

I really hope ADB writes Sigismund's story at the siege. It'd be :cussing awesome.

[Wade Garrett]

Exactly where in Betrayer does it say Khârn and Siggy were bros? The Black Knight always paired with Delvarus in the fighting pits, indeed, the only scene those two have together in the Heresy so far is a flashback to Khârn and Argel Tal losing a first blood match to the Templar and the Champion, and then Sig refusing Delvarus's call for a death bout rematch.

 

That's not what I would call "In a galaxy torn by betrayal, the closest of brothers become the deadliest of enemies!"

[Marshal Rohr]

Sigismund and Khârn paired off versus Delvarus. They were oath brothers. Check your copy of Betrayer again.

[Wade Garrett]

Done.

 

Sigismund of the VII paired with Delvarus of the Triarii, and the two of them won every fight they entered-always to first blood, never lasting more than half a minute.

 

Betrayer, page 167

 

Would you like your crow original recipe or extra crispy?

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm not trying to be a prick it's just been a while since I read betrayer

[Wade Garrett]

I'm not trying to be a prick it's just been a while since I read betrayer

Eh, I'm a bit of a smartmouth online meself. No worries.

 

And do Khârn and Sigismund really need to have been friends before for a scene of them duelling on the walls of Terra to be seven kinds of awesome?

[Hyaenidae]

Galactic Tragedy demands more Tragedy.

 

Of course they have to be former friends.

[Wade Garrett]

In that case, I eagerly await the retcon that Dorn and Perturabo were super special unicorn princess best friends forever pre Heresy, in order that maximum melodrama may be wrung from the Iron Cage.

:p

[The Red Thirst]

In that case, I eagerly await the retcon that Dorn and Perturabo were super special unicorn princess best friends forever pre Heresy, in order that maximum melodrama may be wrung from the Iron Cage.

I wanted this to happen but between the XIII & XVII.

Should have made Guilliman and Lorgar best buds, that way Monarchia would show both Guilliman's loyalty ala "cos daddy said so" and Lorgars "I truly hate you"

Can wait to see what this new story entails