Westcl2 Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 So i played my first game ever. My army was Librarian PFG, 2 squads of Tacs in a rhino and some DW Knights 750 pts he had 2 squads of Thousand sons, some sorceror dude, and half of his army was this winged demon prince of killing me till i was dead Basically i got one full salvo off on the demon, but he was flying and i didn't have flakk missiles. Then he got into cc w/ 1 tac squad, and well it was over from there.....it was either challenge and kill my character or he'd blow up half the squad w/ black mace.........he had some aura that killed 2 of my terminators on a toughness roll......and once it finally got around to combat he just one shotted them at the bottom of the 4th round the remnants of his thousand sons made it into combat and finished off the last of my tacs i had a lot of stupid errors in the game, but it basically seemed like there was nothing i could do once he got into combat w/ me.......is there anything I could have done differently to really deal w/ a daemon prince? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggabertha Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Deamon Princes fear Deathwing Knights' Smite Mode. Activate those weapons and you have a ridiculously powerful weapon to destroy and decimate them - but you have to go in close and rely a lot on your Storm Shields' 3++ invulnerable save. Keep your Deathwing Knights' bases touching and you get Toughness 5 to help you survive and yeah... I think you should've used your Tactical Squads to stay away from it because they can't do anything to it without a Power Fist or Melta Bombs (and even then... it's hard...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Warrior Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Also don't forget your deny the witch rolls. As someone who has been playing for as long as I have I forget it constantly. The perfidious relic for the knights and the unit that has the librarian will have a 5+ to negate his cowardly chaos magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 flak missiles wouldn't help...they'd hit, sure...but hurt him? Doubtful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepowerofwar Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 On thing to remember, for each unit that shoots and hits the prince when he is flying he needs to do a grounding check. If he fails it then he will most likely take a wound and he will be easier to hit for your other units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 It seems you clumped up your guys too much if you got hit by the aura. The aura came from Black Mace after he wound one guy. It will be about 3 inch from the bearer after the combat, i don't quite remember... This effect can only be done if the DP is still alive. Can't measure 3 inch from a model outside the table rite? :D I would suggest to combat squad ALL your tacticals, bait him with either the rhino or the combat squad tacts. If you combat squad your guys, it will make him overkill those tactical marines. Remind him his Black Mace is daemon weapon, so roll for it in the beginning of every fighting phase, and hope he rolls hella high and overkill your marines. Make sure he rolls his hatred too. If you got extra points, put Pintle mounted storm bolters on the rhino, and just keep plugging on his DP. 4 shots are better than 2 shots at hitting and thus forcing him to do grounding check, if it wounds, it is even better. Once he is grounded... open up with EVERYTHING on the DP. Once you've done that... his army should crumble hopefully. As a matter of fact, seeing his list, his DP would be alone in the front with no back up... and he relies too much on the Flying part and -- i assume he is Nurgle DP-- cover save. If he got close, he will charge one thing, hopefully the rhino, or one combat squad. If you space your guys right, he won't be doing aura thingy from the black mace. THEN u kill him good. DP with Black Mace will overkill 5 marines. Always ignore his challenge. You want him to slaughter your squad good. If you are using DWK, put them in cover. If he CHARGES(in which case, he is NUTS :D) those DWK... remember that DP got no grenades unless it is FAQed so. DWK will SLAUGHTER that DP before he can even hit you. If you are using normal Termie, it will hit at the same time as he did... and ALWAYS ignore his challenge, man. After that you just clean up his guys with either the DWK and/or focus fire with marines. Remember to use your krak grenades too while you're at it on melee with your tact. You want him to charge you, not the other way around. If you charge him, he got his crazy I8 i think? if he charges you, I1 you go. Even normal terminators hit at the same time as he did. Just make sure you are in cover. My 2 cents. PS: I assumed... you got a full 10 men guys on your tacts to pull this off.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major_Gilbear Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Actually, I think that at small-level games, the potential of OP stuff is just too high. If you are playing under 1000pts, and he brings a 350pt Daemon Prince to your first ever game... Then it was a douche-bag thing to do. Seriously, games like 40k do need a bit of maturity to play, and if it's obvious that you want to include something will basically wreck the game, then either you need to warn your opponent with sufficient time beforehand, or excercise some restraint. The fact that the codex allows you to do something doesn't really mean that it's fair or that the game will be fun for both players - especially if you are playing outside the bounds of what the game was designed around (which is generally in the region of 1500-2500pts). And I'm still frankly very surprised that he pulled something like that on an opponent who's never played before. It's just... Sad. Also, you are not alone: here is somebody else who recently stuggled with small-point games. Small-point games are fine, but some boundaries need to be set in order to ensure a fair and fun game for both - it's boring and you will learn nothing if one player just rolls you with something you have little chance of stopping. Hopefully you can have a chat with your opponent and arrange a re-match with more balanced forces that will help you to learn the game and build up a good knowledge of how to deal with what other armies can throw at you. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcl2 Posted November 12, 2013 Author Share Posted November 12, 2013 Thanks for all the advice. Varizel I'm confused by your suggestion, I don't get why it would help having him pop my combat squad tacts? And if my dwk are hanging out waiting to be charged they seem kinda worthless until he decides to, and they don't have krak grenades he'll still be i8 right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcl2 Posted November 12, 2013 Author Share Posted November 12, 2013 O it's the terrain that hoses his initiative, but that still seems like he can slowly progress through my tacs and kill them all. Then when it's just my dwk left hell just shoot them to death and force me to charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 If the prince is armed with the Black Mace and kills a model, each of your models within 3"(?) has to pass a toughness test or die. I think Varizel is suggesting that by feeding him 5-man combat squads you minimise the harm this can cause. It's better to lose 5 marines in one round of combat than it is to lose 10 marines in one round. Even worse, with a 10-man squad some might survive into a second round of combat and deny you the chance to shoot him in your turn. Whether you should keep your Deathwing Knights in terrain and wait for him to come to you, or charge and hope your storm shields save enough of his attacks is a conundrum. The answer will be dependant on what else he has to shoot at your knights with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Agreed that being able to hande such a model in a 1k game is quite difficult. Besides the combat squading, forcing him to take as many grounding tests as possible and knowing well both your rules and his, IME the key is table placement. You should keep the units nicely packed together, so if the prince assaults 1, you can counter assault with the rest. If he anihilates 5 men, it can eat the rapid fire of the other 15 + the charge of the DW knights... And last but not least, KEEP THE GOAL IN MIND. If its Emperors Will (2 objectives)...why would you bother getting out of your zone? focus on defending it and there is no way his 1000 sons will walk across the table. The prince comes over? See all the advice the brothers gave above. Purge the alien? Unless he comes to you, you're not going to him. Its not a pretty way to play...but if your opponent focuses on delivering the nastiest unit, its fine that you all use the same concept, right? Here is a spoiler: after 3 games in which you don't move and he can't munch your tacticals...he'll read in the internet about the Dragons. And he'll find that 3 dragons cost just about as that 1 Daemon prince... Come back then and we'll give you new tools, young Padawan :P Hope it helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcl2 Posted November 12, 2013 Author Share Posted November 12, 2013 I just wanted to thanks everyone again for all the input, i shall try again thursday to smite this vile foe So just to summarize and make sure i'm on the same page as you guys combat squads and keep them ~12" apart to maximize shots on the dp keep them in cover to reduce dp's initiative down keep the knights in base contact w/ eachother for the 5 toughness smitemode if they get an attack is there any way to take advantage of the reduced initiative w/ the knights if the dp charges my tacts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 How about a company master with a storm shield and the Mace of Redemption? Bait the demon prince into charging a squad containing the master. If you inflict just one unsaved wound he's reduced to initiative one until the end of the next assault phase. Charge in your turn with the knights and they will strike smite before the prince can attack them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Yep, a little-used effect of the mace...little-used because most foes don't live to see the next round of combat, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 I just wanted to thanks everyone again for all the input, i shall try again thursday to smite this vile foe So just to summarize and make sure i'm on the same page as you guys combat squads and keep them ~12" apart to maximize shots on the dp keep them in cover to reduce dp's initiative down keep the knights in base contact w/ eachother for the 5 toughness smitemode if they get an attack is there any way to take advantage of the reduced initiative w/ the knights if the dp charges my tacts? That is an excellent summary of a bunch of "I think you should" posts hehe The 12" between squads sound a bit too much...6" sounds enough. As for taking advantage of the initiative 1 charge of the DP, you knights are still Ini 4...:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcl2 Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 Ok hold up I'm confused , if he charges tacs he resolved that phase as ini 1, and if on my next turn I charge w my knights if there isn't a persisting effect like mace of a or whatever won't he go back to ini 8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galamere Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 While I haven't ran this yet (Still building my army, and I'm leaning towards Ravenwing) This is quite a bit of dakka. Now I hate cheese, preferring to run theme lists, but yeah, a three hundred point daemon, that's not right, so here's a go. Lib, bare bones (Initially) Command Squad with Standard of Devistation. Two Tac squads with missile launchers Math wise, that's a bit less than a hundred shots at max range he will have to deal with, and chimes in at 540 points, leaving room for some higher strength things to help with tagging him when he's grounded or to deal with the other squads. A Dev squad, min sized with four lasers brings the list up to 690, use prescience on them to help with hitting if needed, and you would have a nasty little force. But again, this is just on paper, you would have two (potentially four) scoring units, but would need to castle up with the banner to really take advantage. give those missile launcher Flak if you want to, bump the lib to level 2 and you will only be five points under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Ok hold up I'm confused , if he charges tacs he resolved that phase as ini 1, and if on my next turn I charge w my knights if there isn't a persisting effect like mace of a or whatever won't he go back to ini 8? Yes. If he charges through difficult terrain he will strike at initiative 1 in that assault phase. If you can cause a wound with a weapon that has the concussive special rule (Mace of Redemption, thunder hammer, all the Deathwing Knights' weapons) he will strike at initiative 1 in the following assault phase. This is why I thought of using the cheapish master as bait to set up the knights' counter-charge in your turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galamere Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Ok hold up I'm confused , if he charges tacs he resolved that phase as ini 1, and if on my next turn I charge w my knights if there isn't a persisting effect like mace of a or whatever won't he go back to ini 8? Yes. If he charges through difficult terrain he will strike at initiative 1 in that assault phase. If you can cause a wound with a weapon that has the concussive special rule (Mace of Redemption, thunder hammer, all the Deathwing Knights' weapons) he will strike at initiative 1 in the following assault phase. This is why I thought of using the cheapish master as bait to set up the knights' counter-charge in your turn. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Prince counts as a Monstrous Creature, so dont they have move through cover? I dont deal with many MC's in close combat (Dark Eldar were my main, lots of poison shooting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Prince counts as a Monstrous Creature, so dont they have move through cover? I dont deal with many MC's in close combat (Dark Eldar were my main, lots of poison shooting)I believe so, but doesn't Move Through Cover just give you an extra dice to roll for the assault move and you discard the lowest? I don't think it also has the effect of assault grenades. I haven't played my tyranids much in 6th edition so I'm also a bit vague on the current raft of rules for monstrous creatures. If my rulebook was to hand I'd look it up, citing page references and everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Prince counts as a Monstrous Creature, so dont they have move through cover? I dont deal with many MC's in close combat (Dark Eldar were my main, lots of poison shooting)I believe so, but doesn't Move Through Cover just give you an extra dice to roll for the assault move and you discard the lowest? I don't think it also has the effect of assault grenades. I haven't played my tyranids much in 6th edition so I'm also a bit vague on the current raft of rules for monstrous creatures. If my rulebook was to hand I'd look it up, citing page references and everything. Move through cover doesn't give access to assault grenade. Otherwise nids players (me included) wouldn't complain about genestealers... they do have Move Through Cover afterall. But they hit at I1 when charging through cover. Same with Raveners, Termagant, Hormagaunt, blablabla. So yeah, even with Move Through Cover, you still need assault grenade, which DP is lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galamere Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Ah, didnt realize, good to know :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcl2 Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 and i'm lost again lol......so since dps dont have assault grenades and he is a monsterous creature....he will get the extra dice to help his assault distance, but still attacks at i1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Sorry, I misled you slightly. I've checked my rulebook now and Move Through Cover "has no effect on charge range rolls" (page 40). So if the demon prince charges through difficult terrain he attacks at initiative 1 in that assault phase (page 22). If he suffers a wound from a concussive weapon he strikes at initiative 1 until the end of the next assault phase (page 35). Otherwise he strikes at whatever his initiative is. Shooting the big sucker might be easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcl2 Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 my next list added consists of Lib pfg 2x dreadnaughts 1 w/ TWLC, 1 w/ AC DWKs 2x Rhinos 20 Tacts (4 combat squads) 1 ML, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Meltagun Hoping that the volley from the dreads and tacts will ground him and my knights will smash his face in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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