Azrael in a 30 man IG blob

[Barnie25]

So I wanted to run Azrael to he able to use our best units as troops choices in 10 terminators and 4 bikers. As they are relatively expensive and low on model count I want to ally with the IG this gives me a way to utilize the Lions Helmet. As anyone ever done this? The unit is a 30 man blob with a melta gun, a sniper and 2 lascannon teams, the Lord Commissar will be the HQ.

[march10k]

....so if they fail a leadership test, the commissar executes Azzy?  LOL

 

I think it's kind of a bad idea.  Sure, you get 30 guardsmen with a 4++....but they mostly have flashlights, and they all have 3s across the statline.  At best....they'll hold an objective and nobody will screw with them because it's such a huge blob of mess.  Great.  You just spent 520 points on that. 

[twopounder]

....so if they fail a leadership test, the commissar executes Azzy?  LOL

 

I think it's kind of a bad idea.  Sure, you get 30 guardsmen with a 4++....but they mostly have flashlights, and they all have 3s across the statline.  At best....they'll hold an objective and nobody will screw with them because it's such a huge blob of mess.  Great.  You just spent 520 points on that. 

 

Unless you give them a chaplain. You can also give the sergeants power mauls which makes them str5, ap4, reroll attacks on the charge.

 

Believe it or not, that makes it an extremely scary unit. However, use it as an assault mob, don't put heavy weapons in it. Slamming against anything with a toughness would yield a win.

[DiscipleOfCaliban]

Maybe not as bad as it sounds. It's 520 points but not just on that but also on unlocking bikes and terminators as troops. That's basically a tax so imagine a few of those points not going anywhere. What it gets you is a big troop unit that likely won't budge from the objective, especially if given the Hold at all Costs Warlord Trait, which Azrael can always choose, for FNP. Flashlights are weak but that's a lot of them so it could do something. The lascannons should also survive in the midst of that unit so reliably pick off a tank or two during the game.

 

Could work out ok, especially in an objective game. Will also deny Slay the Warlord and keep the army at Ld 10. I don't like it, but it could work.

[facmanpob]

My advice would be to "woah there, horsey!"

IG are getting a new Codex just after Xmas, so personally I'd wait until then before getting any IG..... unless you already have a Guard Army, in which case load 'em up as a CC unit as twopounder suggest

Alternatively, try Azzy and Zeke in a Land Raider with some Company Veterans....

[Barnie25]

 

....so if they fail a leadership test, the commissar executes Azzy?  LOL

 

I think it's kind of a bad idea.  Sure, you get 30 guardsmen with a 4++....but they mostly have flashlights, and they all have 3s across the statline.  At best....they'll hold an objective and nobody will screw with them because it's such a huge blob of mess.  Great.  You just spent 520 points on that. 

How I read the Commisar was that he would excecute the sergeants and not Azzy, so thats not the best idea ever I admit. Their role is soley to hold objectives and to be a human shield. My Terminators will be my CC units. Alternatively I could make them into a CC unit with the sergeants wielding a power weapon but I like that less.

 

 

This is the list:

 

Dark Angels 1377

 

HQ

Azrael 215

 

1 Ravenwing
Command Squad 205

5 Bikes

Power Weapon

 

Troops

 

1 Deathwing
Terminator Squad 240

4 TH SS

1 Double Lightning Claws

 

1 Deathwing
Terminator Squad 245

Assault Cannon

Chainfist            

 

1 Ravenwing
Bike Squad 137

 

4 Bikes

Plasma gun

Power weapon

 

Elites

 

1 Company Veteran Squad 135

 

5 Veterans

 

Plasma gun

Missle Launcher

 

1 Dreadnought 135

Twin Linked Lascannons

Missle Launcher

 

Heavy
Support

 

1 Whirlwind 65

 

Imperial Guard 471

1 Lord

Commisar 70

 

1 Infantery  Platoon        191

 

3 Infantery Units

28 Dorks

Sniper

Meltagun

3 Bolt pistols

3 CCW's

Lascannon team

 

1 Leman
Russ Demolisher             210

 

Lascannon                        

Heavy Bolters

Dozer Blade      

 

 

[SvenONE]

Putting Azrael in there should make them fearless I think, so they wouldn't fail an LD test.

 

But yeah, the idea of hordes of guardsman and terminators doesn't sound all that bad.  If anything it sounds kinda fun.

[Barnie25]

I have check for the fearless part, I think thats the wartrait that I could choose, if so then that would be great. The game is gonna be kind of casual anyways but I want to use my old skool Catacan Jungle Fighters as the models are really awesome! I will report back how it went :)

[L30n1d4s]

Azrael makes any unit he joins Fearless because he has the Inner Circle special rule.

 

Inner Circle makes the model Fearless and gives it Preferred Enemy: CSM. Since both of these rules only require one model in a unit to have them to transfer their effects to the whole unit, Azrael confers these to any unit he is attached to.

[Barnie25]

Where in the codex is this stated, all I can find is that 'he' is from the inner circle not the whole squad he's joining.

[facmanpob]

Where in the codex is this stated, all I can find is that 'he' is from the inner circle not the whole squad he's joining.

You need to reference the Fearless USR in the BRB, P35. "Units containing one or more models with the Fearless Special Rule...."

[SvenONE]

Yes what Facman and Leonidas are saying is correct.  I've never seen anyone field an army like this in person but I know it's not unheard of.

[twopounder]

 

 

....so if they fail a leadership test, the commissar executes Azzy?  LOL

 

I think it's kind of a bad idea.  Sure, you get 30 guardsmen with a 4++....but they mostly have flashlights, and they all have 3s across the statline.  At best....they'll hold an objective and nobody will screw with them because it's such a huge blob of mess.  Great.  You just spent 520 points on that. 

How I read the Commisar was that he would excecute the sergeants and not Azzy, so thats not the best idea ever I admit. Their role is soley to hold objectives and to be a human shield. My Terminators will be my CC units. Alternatively I could make them into a CC unit with the sergeants wielding a power weapon but I like that less.

 

 

This is the list:

 

Dark Angels 1377

 

HQ

Azrael 215

 

 

1 Ravenwing

Command Squad 205

5 Bikes

Power Weapon

 

 

Troops

 

1 Deathwing

Terminator Squad 240

4 TH SS

1 Double Lightning Claws

 

1 Deathwing

Terminator Squad 245

Assault Cannon

Chainfist            

 

 

1 Ravenwing

Bike Squad 137

 

4 Bikes

Plasma gun

Power weapon

 

 

Elites

 

1 Company Veteran Squad 135

 

 

5 Veterans

 

Plasma gun

Missle Launcher

 

 

1 Dreadnought 135

Twin Linked Lascannons

Missle Launcher

 

 

Heavy

Support

 

 

1 Whirlwind 65

 

 

Imperial Guard 471

 

1 Lord

Commisar 70

 

1 Infantery  Platoon        191

 

3 Infantery Units

28 Dorks

Sniper

Meltagun

3 Bolt pistols

3 CCW's

Lascannon team

 

1 Leman

Russ Demolisher             210

 

Lascannon                        

Heavy Bolters

Dozer Blade      

 

 

 

The ravenwing command squad is illegal. You must have an HQ mounted on a bike in order to take it. Also, your guard squad is very hodge podge. Azrael is decent in assault, so you're going to waste most of his points trying to take pot shots with an IG unit.

[Barnie25]

The ravenwing command squad is illegal. You must have an HQ mounted on a bike in order to take it. Also, your guard squad is very hodge podge. Azrael is decent in assault, so you're going to waste most of his points trying to take pot shots with an IG unit.

This originally was a all dark angel list in which I had a biker librarian with the command squad, now they're just regular black knights, with 4 bikers and a power sword, which is 180 points. This leaves me with some left.

 

So if I take your advice and turn them into a close combat unit. Their setup would be something like this:

 

30 guards

3 power weapons

Lord Commissar

Azrael (For the Lion wartrait which grants the unit furious charge

 

This would give me an extra strength on the charge + the power weapons + the two HQ's that is indeed a pretty big unit.

 

The best thing is that its just 180 points, where as the other setup was 191. Then I could give the Lord Commissar a power weapon.

 

I also cut the whirlwind and the dreadnought for a Devastator Squad to give more firing support.

[FerociousBeast]

Your list sounds WAAAGH-nderful! Make sure you paint your IG green.

 

This idea pops up every now and again and it always sounds like a blast, but I can't say I've ever read any batreps where it's actually used.

 

My only advice would be not to use this unit as an objective camper. While it would perform such a role wonderfully, it's not where you're going to get the most bang from your buck compared to other Troops units in C: DA. Instead, use it as a massive blob of obstruction in the middle of the board, threatening all and sundry with its massive close combat payload.

 

I'd also consider the FNP warlord trait rather than the furious charge one. If you get into combat, you're not going to have any trouble beating your target(s) down with Azrael, the Commissar, and your sergeants, but you will be taking lots of saves as you march, and FNP will make your blob that much more frustrating to deal with. FNP is more of a force multiplier for a unit like this than FC.

[Barnie25]

The feel no pain wartrait only goes for DA units he joins, thats what be book says atleast.

[FerociousBeast]

Ah, good point. Well then, you might consider Rapid Manoeuvre to make the huge blob faster.

[[TA]Typher]

How many characters are in that IG unit? If Az refuses a challenge they can't use his leadership, which could cause it to run.

 

My kid uses a tactic like this with his chaos army. 30 cultists armed with ccws, with the mark of khorne and a dark apossile. With the extra attacks and re-rolled misses it hits like a truck.

[FlamingDeth]

In theory you could replace the commissar with a primaris psyker wih biomancy, you could get enfeeble, endurance, or both, which would just be fantastic. Then you could take the furious charge warlord trait just fine, since you'd have fnp while you rapid fire lasguns before charging!

[Barnie25]

Yeah I was looking into that as well, maybe he's worth picking up.

[Cactus]

How many characters are in that IG unit? If Az refuses a challenge they can't use his leadership, which could cause it to run.

 

They don't need to use Azrael's leadership, he still makes the unit fearless.

[[TA]Typher]

 

How many characters are in that IG unit? If Az refuses a challenge they can't use his leadership, which could cause it to run.

 

They don't need to use Azrael's leadership, he still makes the unit fearless.

 

"Units containing one or more models with the Fearless special rule automatically pass Pinning, Fear and Regroup tests and Morale check" -Fearless

 

 

"Furthermore, his Leadership cannot be used by the rest of the unit for the remainder of the phase - skulking amongst the ranks is not the stuff of heroism!" -Penalty for refusing a challenge.

 

Hmmm seems like we're splitting hairs here. Does the passage here mean that you can't use his leadership stat or any leadership abilities? Fearless directly connects to his leadership, but are they counting the two as bound together or is the special rule completely separate? I think common sense would dictate that a person who is described as running to the back of the pack and no longer inspiring any amount of leadership wouldn't be conveying a strong desire to be steadfast. But, it isn't clear. I'm pretty mellow when I play and if my opponent said that I couldn't use Fearless I might agree, but if he said the opposite I might agree too. I think a great argument could be made either way here.

 

 

 

 

On a similar note: Does GW still do those "chapter approved" mini updates anymore?

 

Edit: I checked the FAQ. And nothing is mentioned.

[FerociousBeast]

It's a moot point. There should be five characters in that unit, plenty to accept challenges for Azrael.

[[TA]Typher]

Thx FB. That is what I was looking for.

[march10k]

It is true that Azzy would confer fearless. And refusing the challenge would not remove fearlessness. However, if he were not fearless and a morale test were forced, Azzy would take it, and if he failed (scant chance of that!), he would be summarily executed by the commissar. The relevant rule reads:

 

If the commissar's unit fails a morale test, the commissar will summarily execute the squad's current commander-this is the model in the squad with the highest leadership value.

 

Never, never, never put an HQ character who isn't fearless in the same unit as a commissar!

 

Anyway, the blob is still a terrible idea, regardless of whether it's shooty or fighty. For less than the cost of the IG contingent, you can get a 10 man veteran squad with three power weapons...even fists. You're losing a lot of T3 wounds, sure, but at the same time, you're gaining a statline of 4s instead of 3s, and access to more power weapons...and WS4 S4 AP3 power weapons are better than WS3 S5 AP4 power weapons. And The vets can have three attacks each, four on the charge. That's replacing S3 WS3 attacks with S4 WS4 attacks at a one for one ratio.

 

30 fearless guardsmen with a 4+ save are still only guardsmen. Not much scarier than 30 ork boyz with no save. The boyz'll hurt you more, and their T4 partly makes up for not having that 4+. Plus, 30 boyz are cheap as chips.