Do rad grenades take effect instantly?

[Surrender_Monkey]

I'm getting my Black Knights painted up and I've been wondering exactly when the -T from Rad Grenades takes effect.

 

The grenades will be fired at the same time as the massed S7 fire from the Plasma Talons, if I were shooting against a multi wound T4 unit, such as Tau battlesuits, it would be convenient for the plasma talons to be instant killing the now T3 unit.

 

RAW any unit hit by a rad grenade is a -1 T for the rest of the turn, I don't need to wound or kill for it to take effect, so the question is, do hits happen before wound rolls, or is this just an abstract game mechanic?

 

Aside from wanting to get the rules correct, this will affect army selection, if I cannot instant kill in the same volley as the grenades, it might be a good idea to take two squads, or to find room for more plasma weaponry in other squads.

[KnightOfBAAL]

you can fire the grenades before the talons and it takes immediate effect

 

but more plasma is always good :)

[Polythemus]

If it hits it effects no bones about it. This occurs before wounding and cannot be avoided. Enjoy laying waste to your opponents.

[Gentlemanloser]

Isn't all shooting by a squad simultaneous?

 

I wouldn't allow a shot Rad Grenade to take effect for any other shots from the same unit.

 

Other units, sure.

[Magpie]

I think that is backed up by the markerlight restriction, you can't marker light your own attack.

[Gentlemanloser]

I can't find anything in the BRB about all shots from the same shooting attack are simultaneous. :/

 

I'm starting to think this is actually possible.  As even though they happen at the same time, the Rad effect takes place before the To Wound rolls are made.

 

It feels, icky, but I think by RAW it works.

 

The Markerlight restriction is slightly different;

 

 

Note that as markerlight counters are removed from the target before the shooting attack is made, it is impossible for a unit to benefit from its own markerlights.

[Magpie]

How about :

 

Page 13 "This must be declared before rolling To Hit, as all of the models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether. or not all of the dice are rolled together."

 

Page 80 "As all models in a single unit fire simultaneously, a squad cannot wreck a Transport and then fire at its occupants."

[Surrender_Monkey]

But are wound rolls considered to be simultaneous with hit rolls? The effect of rad grenades is triggered by being hit, not wounded or on failed saves.

 

The argument for is that the unit is hit by the grenade, and therefore suffers -1T, then you roll to wound based off that -1T (because the unit has already been hit), then once the wound rolls are done you take saves and remove models, again basing instant death thresholds on the -1T.

 

The argument against is that rolling to wound after rolling to hit is an abstraction and in fact all of this is considered to happen at the same time, but there is nothing in the rules which seems to imply this, only that the guns are fired at the same time.

 

The markerlight system works differently, you need to consume the counters before you roll to hit, so Magpie's argument is true in that case,.

[Magpie]

It's really hard to say, we're getting into a very abstract area.

 

There is nothing to really suggest that the wounds are a necessarily sequential thing. Mix T units for example don't have a changing T based on the casualties causing the majority T type to change.

 

This is one of those ones that can be viewed either way.

 

TBH RAI I'd be leaning towards the effect being immediate, much like the GK's rad grenades.

[hallodx]

But are wound rolls considered to be simultaneous with hit rolls? The effect of rad grenades is triggered by being hit, not wounded or on failed saves.

 

The argument for is that the unit is hit by the grenade, and therefore suffers -1T, then you roll to wound based off that -1T (because the unit has already been hit), then once the wound rolls are done you take saves and remove models, again basing instant death thresholds on the -1T.

 

The argument against is that rolling to wound after rolling to hit is an abstraction and in fact all of this is considered to happen at the same time, but there is nothing in the rules which seems to imply this, only that the guns are fired at the same time.

 

The markerlight system works differently, you need to consume the counters before you roll to hit, so Magpie's argument is true in that case,.

I'm after this. This issue is not about someone shoot first or all shoot together, but that effect take place right after it hit, before rolling to wound

[Magpie]

 

But are wound rolls considered to be simultaneous with hit rolls? The effect of rad grenades is triggered by being hit, not wounded or on failed saves.

 

The argument for is that the unit is hit by the grenade, and therefore suffers -1T, then you roll to wound based off that -1T (because the unit has already been hit), then once the wound rolls are done you take saves and remove models, again basing instant death thresholds on the -1T.

 

The argument against is that rolling to wound after rolling to hit is an abstraction and in fact all of this is considered to happen at the same time, but there is nothing in the rules which seems to imply this, only that the guns are fired at the same time.

 

The markerlight system works differently, you need to consume the counters before you roll to hit, so Magpie's argument is true in that case,.

I'm after this. This issue is not about someone shoot first or all shoot together, but that effect take place right after it hit, before rolling to wound

 

The Vindicare Assassin "Shield Breaker" round destroys the targets shield before saves are taken, so there is a certain sequence to things. You have to have already wounded tho'.

[hallodx]

The text is, Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shell suffers a -1 penalty to their T/WS and I until the end of the turn.

So as long as it is hit, that rule works. Shouldn't be a problem understanding it.

[infornography]

I don't see how there is much confusion on this.  The to hit roll comes before the wound rolls.  The -1 T happens on hit, the target's toughness is decreased before you start rolling wounds.

 

I thought that was part of the point in how it was supposed to work.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Even if all shooting is simultaneous, the sequence is very clearly that you have to roll to hit before you roll to wound, and the rad effect happens once the unit has been hit.

 

Clear-cut to me too.