Moonstalker Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Well, we all know that a Crozius in 40k is a treated as a Power Maul (pg 122 C:SM), but in Betrayal (pg 191) the Crozius for a Chaplain Consul is listed only as a Power Weapon - implying it can be taken as an axe, sword, maul, or lance, whatever is modeled on the mini. This makes some sense to me, as I think that during the GC and HH the Crozius was not quite as codified in its form/function as it is later on in the 41st millenium. That may also just be wishful thinking on my part, since I feel that power mauls are generally pretty useless. There isn't any clarification in the FAQ, so what do you guys think? Is it kosher to take a Chaplain with a Sword or Axe shaped Crozius? Even if it is rules-legal, is this a violation of the fluff? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMagnus Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 In my opinion yes, its a violation of the fluff since the crozius is shaped like a maul/ceptre, it was the icon of the chaplains even before the Emperors Ascension. Also, you cant take power lances in the Horus Heresy, for some reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3520487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Considering that there was no centralized office across the Legions, just at most 18 different offices of somewhat similar responsibilities that only receive unified direction from the Nikaea Edict, which is specific to Librarians only . . . No, I'd say it would break fluff if they did restrict to mauls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3520506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marine7312000 Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 As much I want to disagree with Anaziel, I simply can't. The power maul has its adherents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3520507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 A power weapon is a power weapon is a power weapon. Meaning that it is determined by its shape. The Crozius that look like a cross with sharpened edges like the beard of an axe? It is actually an axe. That one of a standard aquila with its wings turned upward and acting as the edge, just like an axe? It's an axe too. Erebus' book on a stick? That's a maul. Very few of the GW Croziuses(Crozii?) actually resemble plain mauls. That's what Forgeworld is getting at. Just as there are random shapes and sizes in 40K, there are random shapes and sizes in 30K, especially in 30K where the Legion's culture had such a strong influence. For example, the Night Lords Chaplains which we see having the role of an executioner are more likely to have something axe-(or sword-)shaped to reflect that role. The difference is that the 30K rules actually see this by then allowing the Crozius to have rules according to how it is modeled. Also, there are no "power lances" because right now, there are at least three specialist weapons which can fulfill that role: Phoenix Guard Lance, Death Scythe and Nostraman Chainglaive. As long as these weapons are modeled within the parameters of the name, they are good to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3520527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted November 13, 2013 Author Share Posted November 13, 2013 Didn't realize power lances weren't available in 30k. Good to know. Kol and Cormac, that's about my thoughts on the Crozius, that it wouldn't be completely standardized during the GC/HH. The specific Crozius wielded by each Chaplain would reflect both the Legion they came from and possibly some of that Chaplain's personality. So maybe an Ultramarine might wield a gladius-shaped Crozius and the Night Lords (as you mentioned) might have an axe-shaped one. It does sound like that's what the rules say, inasmuch as they say anything. Just listing it as a generic power weapon opens it up to whatever is represented on the model - aside from power lances. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3520657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Yeah in the first book at the bottom of a page it says something a long the lines of "If an option refers to a power weapon it can either be a power sword, power axe or power maul." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3520735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 we had the same discussion on the SW forum back when 6th started. our Wolf Priests' Crozi(ae?) were listed as power weapons too. it got FAQed a fesw months later. If I were you, I'd magnetise them, or model them with mauls, so you don't get the same problem I had: having to destroy the 4 best painted models you have because they suddonly lose the ability to wield the weapons they've wielded since they were able to walk... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3520781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Actually, if they just get listed as mauls, no conversion would really be necessary(unless its a sword) since mauls come in a surprising variety. That's the thing, there are two different ways about this. But the crozius has been around since Betrayal and they have yet to change it, I imagine it isn't going to get changed anytime soon. Especially since they've had one FAQ and Massacre released since Betrayal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3520798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincite Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 I'm having images of White Scar and Night Lord Chaplains running around with ritual power-knives now. Scary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3520806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 palatine blades can take power lance I am also hoping that white scars get a special rule that anyone with a bike/jetbike can buy a power slance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3521080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 A power lance power lance or the same power lance the Phoenix Guard get? I thought it was the latter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3521387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 A power lance power lance or the same power lance the Phoenix Guard get? I thought it was the latter? A normal power lance. Which can confuse things on the table, as how do you tell them apart? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3521510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Ah okay. I was misled in my opinion as I thought they were the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3521522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanct Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 spu00sed, on 14 Nov 2013 - 06:42, said: Kol_Saresk, on 14 Nov 2013 - 02:02, said: A power lance power lance or the same power lance the Phoenix Guard get? I thought it was the latter? A normal power lance. Which can confuse things on the table, as how do you tell them apart? Easy. Palatine can't take the EC phoenix power spear but can take the 40k rulebook power lance. Every other EC can't take the 40k rulebook power lance but might be able to take the EC phoenix power spear Fluffiness - like Kol I believe the chaplain is the spiritual heart of the 30k legion and would probably have a power weapon relevant to the [aspect of their] legion they're in represent. A World Eater chaplain might have a power axe (they do like their axes) but in the Emperor's Children it might be a power sword (cos dueling with either of the others may lack elegance) and an Iron Hands chaplain might have a power maul (represented as a hammer) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3521540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Well there was an Emperor's Children chaplain in one novel and he had a maul. Word Bearer chaplains all carry mauls but they started the crozius idea I believe. As an aside, a crozius is a scepter of office carried by some church official among present day religions. So for me for something to be called a crizius it needs to be a maul or staff. Something scepter like. If chap is carrying an ax the he's got an ax not a crozius. But thats just me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3522004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 To each their own. But some of the ones GW made(or used to make?) could definitely be passed off as being more axe-like than maul-like. That was just my point. And so to that end, it would make more sense if the iron cross on a stick with sharpened edges that mirroroed the edges of an axe, was treated like an axe rather than say, Erebus' book on a stick which is most definitely a maul. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3522008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 To each their own. But some of the ones GW made(or used to make?) could definitely be passed off as being more axe-like than maul-like. That was just my point. And so to that end, it would make more sense if the iron cross on a stick with sharpened edges that mirroroed the edges of an axe, was treated like an axe rather than say, Erebus' book on a stick which is most definitely a maul. And yet the rules for said models that GW has made that you are more axe-like then maul tell you that it doesn't matter what they look like, they are mauls. So if said iron cross on a stick with sharpened edges mirrors the edges of an axe, you teeat it as a maul because it is a Crozius. A Crozius is a Crozius is a Crozius despite what it looks like in 40k and in turn I would extend that same rationale for a named wargear item to 30k for consistency. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3523907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 And Forgeworld's rules for a 30K Crozius says power weapon. That is the beginning and end of it. A 40K Crozius is a maul. A 30K crozius is the cloest power weapon it bears a resemblance to, whether it be an axe, maul, sword or stick. It doesn't matter what we think, that's what was done and until Forgeworld issues a FAQ stating otherwise, it is going to remain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3524084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinholt Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Also, I love chaplains, but after the "maul" conversion, I haven't seen a single one on the table... So I'm going to hope for "weapon" here, as having your best beatstick locked into non AP3 weaponry creates game-related issues that hold back playing some of the coolest models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3524287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted November 17, 2013 Author Share Posted November 17, 2013 I got off my butt the other day and sent this (along with my question regarding Inviolate Armor/Rapier Batteries) to the FW rules question email. If I hear back from them, I'll let you guys know what they said. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3524335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Soooooooo can i switch out the crozius power weapon for a NL crozius chainglaive???? :D i think i might need to go change my pants now.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3524482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 The response I got today from FW: "Yes, the Crozius Arcanum available to Chaplain Consuls is a generic power weapon and can be modelled as per the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." I think this clearly means, from a fluff standpoint as well as a rules standpoint, that in 30k a Crozius could be any number of weapon types, depending just on what is modelled. I think it also makes the Chaplain Consul one of the better value-for-points options on a Centurion. Essentially, just 20 points to give him and his squad Fearless and Hatred. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3525164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Crozius chainglaive it is then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3525188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Bad depthcharge - that's too much crazy for one NL :p On other matters - most excellent, I like hammers AND swords, now I can have both :d Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283228-crozius-arcanum-power-weapon-or-power-maul/#findComment-3525217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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