Phoebus Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I certainly owe you an apology for assuming your post was in response to mind! Truthfully, though, when I read your post, and your responses to Perrin and Cormac, it certainly does seem as if you think the Emperor is referring to Alpharius and one other brother. Cormac has made an admirable effort of trying to explain how the Emperor could be talking about something other than the two Missing Primarchs, but - respectfully - it's not convincing to me. I can't reconcile the argument with the fact that the Emperor's quote directly mirrors so many other instances of Primarchs talking about their redacted brethren. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3558811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Well, I understand that according to the editor Laurie Goulding and the author Gav Thorpe, that the "intent" was to reference Alpharius and one of the Missing Primarchs as having yet to be found. My first an strongest impression was that it was in reference to the Missing Primarchs being "missing" and that the Emperor could sit there and say "you still have seventeen brothers" because he knew Alpharius was still alive due to the psychic beacon. However, understanding the author's intent has created a criticism in that if the author wanted to convey something, he should do so more clearly. So as it stands, the "official but not officially printed" statement from BL is that the scene just says that the Emperor is telling Corax he is only the 18th Primarch found. My opinion is that if anything needs to get rewritten, it is that scene. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3558813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I agree with your closing sentiment whole-heartedly. :) If Goulding went on record with that qualifier, then I have no choice but to not like it, much like I don't like the Official Explanation to the "seeming discrepancy" in the timeline of The Outcast Dead. I still maintain that these are corrections to continuity errors, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3558843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Yeah, I honestly wouldn't be surprise if that was the case. Honestly, my opinion on the continuity is "let what happened remain and just move towards minimizing any future fallout" instead of this retroactive editing. For example the "Alpharius took command here so he was obviously found on this date and since we want all twenty Primarchs meeting at the same time that means screwing the pooch on The First Heretic". That is just..... No. But hey, I'm just a consumer. My opinion means less than my wallet. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3558875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Sorry, gentlemen, but there do seem to be errors in the Primarch discovery order that Laurie provided, the most obvious being that it (apparently) doesn't take into account Deliverance Lost. “Brothers?’ Corvus was excited by the prospect, pushing aside the questions that the Emperor’s answer had prompted. Though he had made many friends amongst the prisoners of Lycaeus, always Corvus had been aware of his otherness, and when they had started to call him Saviour any hope of normal relationships had ended. That there were others like him filled Corvus with hope again. ‘Yes, you have brothers,’ said the Emperor, smiling at his son’s delight. ‘Seventeen of them. You are the primarchs, my finest creations.’ ‘Seventeen?’ Corvus asked, confused. ‘I remember that I was number nineteen. How can that be so?’ The Emperor’s expression grew bleak, filled with deep sorrow. He looked away as he replied. ‘The other two,’ he said. ‘That is a conversation for another day.” I honestly don't get how someone would think the Emperor is referring to anyone other than the two missing Primarchs when he refers to the "other two". The context and the implication are entirely wrong for them to be one of the deleted Primarchs and Alpharius. This convention has always been used for the Missing Primarchs since the series began. I think it would be disingenuous for it to suddenly be used for someone that hasn't yet been found. Anyways, I know the official party line is "it's all canon and none of it is". I struggle to see how, in this case, we're not looking at a simple case of human error. Looks like gods and demigods can be bad at maths Number 19 with 17 brothers. That only leaves number 18 missing, thus only 1 missing brother. incorrect. The Emperor says 17. Corax says 19. The Emperor then says "2 more". As the Primarchs had psychic beacons that allowed the Emperor to know if they were alive or not, it is an entirely reasonably summation that when he suddenly gets soulful sad, that the two he is referring two are in "an unfavorable state". And as a result, it is logical that one read it as a reference to the missing Primarchs and thatthe Emperor knows Alpharius is still alive due to said psychic beacon, meaning that Corax still has seventeen brothers. If you wanted to convey two simply haven't been found yet, instead of getting teary eyed and changing topics, it would have been easier to instead leave the Emperor neutral and say "Well you have two more but we haven't found them yet." Something like that would lead to, what I am told, is the "obvious" conclusion that Gav Thorpe was supposedly trying to convey. Kol_Saresk, the Emperor's quote clearly mirrors those we read every time someone's been referring to the Missing Primarchs. What you're proposing, on the other hand, is overly convoluted. It assumes that one of the Missing Primarchs hasn't been found yet, but that the Emperor has already decided that he will be deleted, hence the also-missing Alpharius is the eighteenth brother. Going by your own logic, though, the Emperor would know what Alpharius' status is, and thus has no reason to refer him in the same way as the two Missing Primarchs. With respect, your last paragraph operates on faulty logic. It assumes there are two more Primarchs to be found. That's not the case, though. If you read the Emperor's quote as intended - in the same light as when the Primarchs refer to their missing brothers in other stories - then only Alpharius remains to be found. Thus, the Emperor has no reason to try to convey to you that two Primarchs haven't found yet. His "soulful sad" demeanor makes sense, because he's referring to the two Missing Primarchs - who already have been found, have already been deleted, but aren't a topic that the Emperor wants to broach with the son he just discovered. Perrin, Exactly. The attempts to reconcile the difference between Deliverance Lost and Laurie's list sound about as plausible as those aimed at explaining the bizarre discrepancies in the timeline of The Outcast Dead. Aha, I see your confusion. No, it isn't saying that Alpharius is brother 18. Corax himself is. "You have seventeen other brothers, because you are the eighteenth found" "But my pod was marked 'nineteen,' how can that be?" "Ah, well, the other two (Oh, by the way, there are twenty total of you) haven't been found yet. But that is a sad discussion and this is party time according to the cat, we'll talk about that some other day." "But why is it sad? Because you know they are going to be deleted?" "Well, that could be a reason for me being sad. Or it could be that I have gone OVER A CENTURY without finding them, or that I am beginning to worry that by this point I might not ever. I created you all for a purpose, and every year I don't have you all with me is a year that purpose goes to waste. There is also the fact that I didn't actually say it was a sad topic, so I could just be saying that is a rather low priority thing on the list of things we need to discuss." "But the distant look!" "Ah, I can see why that might be considered sad. But then, I am a powerful psyker. Maybe you bringing it up made me want to do a quick scan around this galactic sector. Or maybe it is low priority, but still a distracting topic. Remember what I said about the purpose and the worrying?" "Okay . . . " "Look, the point is, I get how it could be taken that way. I mean, even Kol Saresk and Cormac Airt once thought I meant the two MIAs, and they have been dust on the wind for millennia! But those people leaped upon any chance of info for those two, heedless of veracity or context. But the point is, I am outright telling you I meant the two we have yet to find. End of story. The guy who wrote the story and the guy who double-checked the other guy's work all agree on this." This may have just changed my mind again The mystery over whether this is a mistake or not might even grow to eclipse the Missing Primarchs mystery. Decades from now people will be whispering of "The Mistake" and spending many a night arguing if it was or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I think the most troubling part of the fact that the list directly contradicts material The Black Library had already published, is that it means that they have no idea what they're even publishing, lol. Which, to be frank, isn't surprising. Just troubling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 A poster from a different forum brought up some what appear to be more significant discrepancies between the timeline Laurie revealed and the novels themselves. They deal with the Lion and the timeline implied in Descent of Angels and outright stated in Fallen Angels. I double-checked the books in question, and - surprise: the rumors of the books being updated to match the new discovery order are true! “Our training cadre has worked diligently for the last century, refining our recruiting and training procedures to meet the challenges that the Emperor has set for us. I believe that my reports – as well as the constant flow of warriors and supplies – testify to our dedication and success.” Excerpt From: Mike Lee. “Fallen Angels.” iBooks. The speaker, Zahariel, was sent back to Caliban along with Luther a century prior to the events of Isstvan V. This was following the first "major campaign" undertaken by the Dark Angels. The original version of the novel used the words "fifty years" instead of "century". That would mean the Lion would have been found around the hundredth year of the Great Crusade, making his order of discovery more plausible. Still, that couldn't be right, because... “Since then I have crusaded across his empire for over a century, raising icons and faiths in his image – and only now he objects? After a hundred years, only now am I told that all I’ve done is wrong?” Excerpt From: Aaron Dembski-Bowden. “The First Heretic.” iBooks. ... the above quote was said forty-three years before the events of Isstvan V. Meaning Lorgar had been around since around the sixtieth year of the Great Crusade. Laurie has stated that discovery order does not necessarily constitute the order in which each Primarch took command of their Legion, but I think it's rather disingenuous to assume that the Lion served an apprenticeship of at least four decades. Unfortunately... “It was an optimistic time, a period of fine ideals. It was an age of discovery, and he was a part of it. The early days were great days. Decades of conquest in the name of the Emperor. Afterwards, Zahariel would look back on these years as the happiest of his life. ” Excerpt From: Mitchel Scanlon. “Descent of Angels.” iBooks. ... that's precisely what appears to be the case (based on what I assume to be a change to this novel, as well). I think it's going to be very difficult to reconcile this discovery order with the novels that tell the tale of the Lion's origins and first years as a Primarch. As things stand, the changes make sense only in the plainest way - in the sense that X is before Y. Unless an editor - or Mitch Scanlon himself - sits down and re-writes a few sentences or paragraphs, then the mission to Sarosh and its place in the chronology of the First Legion makes no sense. There's no way that "decades" after the Lion was found the first "major campaign" the Dark Angels were assigned was supposed to be the completion of purely administrative matters on a planet about to become Compliant. The author even informs us that the tasking was considered to be appropriate for a secondary task force, not a primary Expedition Fleet, and the White Scars whom the Dark Angels replace there make it plain that they are relieved to be done with such a boring duty. I get the need to fix the timeline of one Primarch as opposed to those of two others, especially when the latter have backgrounds that are much more established and integrated in the chronology of the Great Crusade. As of right now, though, better efforts need to be made for this fix to make sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 IIRC, Sarosh only becomes a "major campaign" in retrospect, due to the daemon that the indigenous population summoned as well as the assassination attempt on the Invincible Reason. Personally, I'd just call it a minor skirmish or so on. Not like they had to reconquer the planet. But yeah, that is honestly the biggest problem I see. I mean, I get the need to fix continuity errors. But here, it seems like "Well we'll throw this[The Finding Order] into the mix and then rework everything to work around it." Personally, what I would try to have done if I had to absolutely make all the previously written material be continuity-error free, is make the books work with each other. And then try to do things like make a List of the Primarchs' Findings or pretty much any other timeline. Fix what is already broke instead of making it more broke. But it ain't me doing it so my opinion is neither here nor there. But yeah, the need to "Be in line with this monkey wrench we decided to just throw in" is making somethings worse than better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefect Apollyon Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 The XIth Primarch was so likable by everyone, he had an affair with a Xenos, got caught. Big E was not amused. Seriously, they will never advance this story. They will hint, they will get us chin-wagging, but will leave it at that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Once the golden goose that is the horus heresy is over I won't be surprised if they go into more detail about the great crusade and potentially tackle the lost legions.... I personally am all for it so the debate ends! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefect Apollyon Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Which is exactly why I don't think it'll happen. The discussions it brings up, the interest it garners. Revealing them would be a last resort by GW/BL/FW to revive interest in a failing setting. If they did reveal them, they best bloody get it right. I can't stand seeing bad fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I wouldn't mind the lost legions being tackled, but never actually explained. Named by their legion number and noted in actions along other legions, but little else given. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 IIRC, Sarosh only becomes a "major campaign" in retrospect, due to the daemon that the indigenous population summoned as well as the assassination attempt on the Invincible Reason. Personally, I'd just call it a minor skirmish or so on. Not like they had to reconquer the planet. But yeah, that is honestly the biggest problem I see. I mean, I get the need to fix continuity errors. But here, it seems like "Well we'll throw this[The Finding Order] into the mix and then rework everything to work around it." Personally, what I would try to have done if I had to absolutely make all the previously written material be continuity-error free, is make the books work with each other. And then try to do things like make a List of the Primarchs' Findings or pretty much any other timeline. Fix what is already broke instead of making it more broke. But it ain't me doing it so my opinion is neither here nor there. But yeah, the need to "Be in line with this monkey wrench we decided to just throw in" is making somethings worse than better. It was not just thrown in though. You make it sound like the list was made in a vacuum, arbitrarily ordered and decided by God to be the overriding truth. That isn't the case. The list was devised by the editors and authors trawling through all of the material until they came up with a list that the majority of material and personnel could agree upon as accurate. The list had always been there, in the books. What we are seeing are the books that had always been breaking the continuity of the majority, like the Dark Angels' duology and the First Heretic in the case of timelines, being changed to be in line with that majority. The changes might not be the best, nor may they even be succeeding at fixing the issue. But they aren't just being tossed in because of something they just decided to do. They are attempting to fix the previous books so they can get them to work with each other better. You can't pretend nothing is broken while building on a cracked foundation. You have to . . . I don't know, shore it up, stabilize it, fill in the cracks or something. What do I look like, a :cuss ing architect? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I'm sorry I gave the impression that it was whisked out of thin air, but it was done in the way you just said things should not be done. "You can't pretend nothing is broken while building on a cracked foundation." This list is something built broken on a cracked foundation and then the foundation is being made to work around the building. Faulty software was made for a Franenstein tower and now the 30 year old hardware is being made to fit the faulty software. Crappy binding is being used to hold a printed book made of amazing vinyl cover but with sub-grade paper. Fix the mistakes and then start doing things like "Well the Primarchs were found at this time." Look on First Expedition. Talk about the Lost Primarchs. Talk was being made that they had to disappear within the twenty years leading up to the Crusade because both Primarchs had to be met by all of the other 18. Brought up Deliverance Lost and the First Heretic. I was "corrected" on Deliverance Lost. And then talk started happening on the need to "correct" The First Heretic. And then the strangest thing happens. Little ol' me(who I was informed by one of the members on that forum that I don't know much about the Heresy, but that's okay there were plenty who did) brings up the fact that technically Alpharius has three founding dates. You know what happens after that? Laurie Goulding pops up that he had forgotten about that and there was a snippet in Legion saying something about how it took Alpharius a few decades to join his Legion. Something like that, would never had happened if the foundation had been repaired/hardware been upgraded/paper been high quality before they tried to establish timelines. Currently, I'm trying to figure out a little conversation snippet from Scars. According to First Expedition, they "think" it is some kind of sex reference. I guess I just don't work on the same mindset they do because I can't pick up that kind of innuendo from it at all. And so far, everyone's idea on what it was talking about(including my own) have been shot down by the source material(Scars and Fulgrim). If you have to fix the continuity errors, fix them before you start trying to make something from the continuity. And definitely don't make something from a broken continuity and then try to make the continuity conform to it. That never works out pretty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 You keep saying it needs to be fixed first, fix it first. It's like saying you need to hammer in the nail before you use the hammer. This is their fix, for better or for worse. This is them taking the parts not broken, gathering it all, and building a tool to fix the rest. But I will point out that I am not saying that it is working as well as intended. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 You keep saying it needs to be fixed first, fix it first. It's like saying you need to hammer in the nail before you use the hammer. This is their fix, for better or for worse. This is them taking the parts not broken, gathering it all, and building a tool to fix the rest. But I will point out that I am not saying that it is working as well as intended. Actually what I'm suggesting is pulling the nail(error) out of the wall(current HH setting/background/timeline), sealing the hole and then making a new one in the same wall and using a new nail(revisions). Just so you can hang the painting(anything "extra"(Primarch's Finding, etc)) and it be done right. The problem is that, form my perspective, it looks like the choice is "put a different nail in the same hole" and then hang the painting on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3559885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 God I just read this thread and it's pretty sad that once again communication is breaking down, I get what kol is saying & what cormac is and at the end of the day if GW decide they can make money on the release they may release it look at the limited edition art crap book it's essentially the original Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3560058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Cormac, Obviously I can't say with any amount of surety how the Black Library team came up with their list, so any complaint I make comes with a grain of salt. Warning: run-on sentence follows! That having been said, it's difficult for me to assume that there was a firm discovery order when the series first began, that the authors of the first two novels to advertise when a Primarch was discovered somehow didn't get that list, and their novels in turn made it through the entire editing process without anyone catching this. So when I consider ideas like ... "The list had always been there, in the books. What we are seeing are the books that had always been breaking the continuity of the majority, like the Dark Angels' duology ..." ... you can understand my frustration a bit, I hope! (Note, not frustration with you, but with the proposed situation) I think that a reasonable assumption can be made that, sometime around The First Heretic, the team decided certain aspects of the series - the discovery order being among those - needed to be nailed down. We know that was the case with the sizes of the Legions themselves. Let's also assume that the list isn't completely arbitrary, and that there solid reasons for the Lion to have been found before Lorgar was. I have no problem taking that leap of faith because the majority of the series has been rather good in my opinion, with some books proving that they shouldn't be viewed as "mere genre fiction." In that sense, it's completely understandable that the team would look into making minor changes to novels - dates, number of years, etc. - to make sure this chronology fits. The problem that I'm trying to point out is that the changes being introduced as fixes aren't really the best. Half of the chronology instances that needed to be changed in Fallen Angels were not addressed. The Lion ends up either hanging out and doing nothing of consequence for four decades or there has been an unmentioned case of Warp-time vagary (or both?). This frustrates me because nothing that has been mentioned in this topic (and not just my posts) has been cosmic. It's literally a case of opening up the eBook copy of the novel, hitting Control + F, and searching for instances of "year", "century", "centuries"... and behold! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3560072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 God I just read this thread and it's pretty sad that once again communication is breaking down, I get what kol is saying & what cormac is and at the end of the day if GW decide they can make money on the release they may release it look at the limited edition art crap book it's essentially the original Honestly, it kind of felt like we were arguing for the same thing but our arguments just kept passing each other and not clicking. Then, when I was replying to Kol's last post earlier today, I had to stop myself because I just don't care one way or the other. I was going to drop the subject by just not responding and continuing it. Man, even the dumbest internet debates are tough to walk away from, even when you know how dumb you are being continuing it. I blame Wade because, I don't know, he's not here right now. @Phoebus: I did point out a couple times that I was making no statements whatsoever that the fixes were being done well, or even that they were succeeding at their intended purpose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3560093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 The reason why we will never be given strait facts about the missing legions is that they are directly tied to the Emperor. The series will only ever hint at his intentions and motives so that the mystique surrounding him (and cause for rift between loyalists and rebels) always lives on. They can't just have simply died to Xenos or a car crash after a party. That would be too much of a let down. From the information we have, we can conclude that their passing was a troublesome affair. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3560230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBA Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120809191035/warhammer40k/images/3/35/Large-sigillite.jpg Was browsing BL.com and for the first time noticed the 2nd and 11th skulls on Malcador's throne. Is this ever explained, or just some easter egg? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3560638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Easter egg, it wasn't touched upon in the audio at the very least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3560662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Michael Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I dont know kol, that seemed pretty vague too. it really only tells us that lorgar and the XI were close. im also gonna agree with sirius on this one, if they had simply been killed in battle than why erase all records? Do not forget the lose tie ins regarding the space wolves. The get refered to as the executioners. Antrim and Russ even talk about it in their little skirmish. It leads one to believe that the wolves were tasked with the unknowns destruction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3560667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Ehhh wolves weren't big enough to be executioners as they were a small sized legion they amount of damage they took from prospero and night of the wolf shows they aren't capable of taking on another legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3560689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 God I just read this thread and it's pretty sad that once again communication is breaking down, I get what kol is saying & what cormac is and at the end of the day if GW decide they can make money on the release they may release it look at the limited edition art crap book it's essentially the original Honestly, it kind of felt like we were arguing for the same thing but our arguments just kept passing each other and not clicking. Then, when I was replying to Kol's last post earlier today, I had to stop myself because I just don't care one way or the other. I was going to drop the subject by just not responding and continuing it. Man, even the dumbest internet debates are tough to walk away from, even when you know how dumb you are being continuing it. I blame Wade because, I don't know, he's not here right now. I know but this same topic has been done to death just like the executioner theme and the what if scenarios, I just tire of it as at the end of the day everyone's right and/or wrong because BL will do whatever will sell. And every book release gives us more to speculate on, I respect you wade m2c heathens kol and all our brothers who give a great argument :P But one thing is for certain it's got to be big for the 2 to be eliminated. Treachery wasn't encountered mutation within legions wasn't uncommon and mental instability was a factor all primarchs had, so I'm going to go with mental degradation leading to a sector wide genocide using the 2nd to take out the 11th leading to a one on one duel where they both ripped out each other's intestines. Now let's just wait 10 years and see if I'm right :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283291-lost-primarchsagain/page/3/#findComment-3560694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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