Why do we not have access to a lot of the new space armoury

[ZONKEY]

Hello everyone :)

 

I am just wondering why the sons of lion don't have access to a lot of the new space marine armoury such as centurions the AA rhino or storm talons or even storm ravens? :(

[EPK]

I suppose the short answer is for the same reason other chapters don't have access to our unique goodies. Fluff-wise you could certainly make an argument for the Unforgiven to have any number of those items, but game-wise there has to be a certain amount of things that remain unique from codex to codex.

 

And at least now there is rules in place to use allies to get access to any of them anyway (this was not always the case).

[ZONKEY]

Because I love the dark angel fluff and paint scheme but I would love access to centurions or even the AA rhino as I suffer from flyer spam and I don't want to betray my codex but the deathwing knights with AP4 maces and that flyer with hurricane bolters and a ap5 blast just seem weak I would just like stress that is just my opinion

[Lysere]

Because I love the dark angel fluff and paint scheme but I would love access to centurions or even the AA rhino as I suffer from flyer spam and I don't want to betray my codex but the deathwing knights with AP4 maces and that flyer with hurricane bolters and a ap5 blast just seem weak I would just like stress that is just my opinion

 

Because C:SM doesn't have corvus hammers, very awesome and unique banners, or either DA flyer. Plus it lacks many of the unique unit choices that make DA stand out as an army. If you want them in find a marine chapter tactic you like and either run them instead or make allies to run alongside DA.

 

Can't have all the awesome toys in one book so either pick one of em or ally, but the latter one is more expensive.

[ZONKEY]

The Corvus hammer failed me very badly lol, which is a good banner?

[Terrified Templar]

When you guys spill all of your secrets we will let you have access to the SCT for the Stormtalon. Also if you let us know what happened to that Black Templar Crusade that never returned from the Ophidium Gulf we may throw in the SCT for one of those AA rhinos.

 

But in all seriousness C:SM needs to be unique and that also means having unique units and wargear choices. Just cause some of your stuff may not be all that it's cracked up to be doesn't mean you have a claim on our unique choices.

 

EDIT: You guys did get the short end of the stick on flyers though so I can understand some of the frustration.

[ZONKEY]

Though we did luck out with black knights

[Surrender_Monkey]

In fluff: There's no reason why Dark Angels shouldn't have access to something that 90% of Space Marine chapters apparently have.

 

In rules: If DA had everything in the regular codex, plus their own special rules, why would you want to play a regular codex army? There needs to be give and take to keep each marine codex distinct from the rest. Perhaps some of the new toys will creep in for later editions, but for now what we have is what we have.

 

As far as banners go, the Standard of Devastation is the star of the show, stick one in a Crusader and get 48 twin linked bolter shots, or in the middle of an aegis line with two tactical squads for 80 shots, or in a bike army for firepower and manoeuvrability.

 

Special mention goes to the Standard of Fortitude, a 12" FNP bubble in the middle of a Deathwing army? Yes please.

[Bryan Blaire]

Also, a Codex is (while not entirely representative) somewhat based on the fluff of "how a stereotypical army of X faction fights." Tradition is a pretty heavy element (much like flerovium or livermorium) among Marine Chapters, and I would say that in their own way, the Dark Angels are some of the most internally traditionalist. In a situation like that, it's entirely possible that simply based on tradition, the Dark Angels continue to utilize war material that has proven somewhat less effective than more modernly implemented (say, disclosed 5K years ago... Seriously, who uses something that new) equipment. Even something like grav weaponry can be explained in this way, basically, if the ancient DA didn't like it, the modern ones probably won't use it either, etc.

 

Long story short, the Unforgiven may not fight using some equipment simply because old DA or some book says that they don't like it, but they like their more traditional Calibanite based stuff.

 

Likely out of game reason, as others have said, there have to be some differences between Codexes.

[EPK]

Also if you let us know what happened to that Black Templar Crusade that never returned from the Ophidium Gulf we may throw in the SCT for one of those AA rhinos.

 

We told you, they made their warp jump, if they didn't come out on the other end, the Emperor alone knows their fate.

[Terrified Templar]

 

Also if you let us know what happened to that Black Templar Crusade that never returned from the Ophidium Gulf we may throw in the SCT for one of those AA rhinos.

 

We told you, they made their warp jump, if they didn't come out on the other end, the Emperor alone knows their fate.

 

 

That seems to happen quite a lot when people run into you guys. But since there can't possibly be any reason why you guys would be willing to level entire planetary populations just to keep something secret, certainly not a secret about 10,000 year-old traitors or anything like that, then I guess I am just being paranoid. Sorry I ever doubted you guys.

[Rift Blade]

Hey, look at this way. At least you guys get a Flyer. The Sons of Russ still make do with lots of bolter fire. Lots & lots of bolter fire. And a little bit of luck. There's always fortifications with their upgrade for ant-air. Not my favourite but we make do with what we have. Did I mention luck!?!??!!?

[[TA]Typher]

Budget problems... After ordering all that ammo that the banner of devistation uses up, the special jetbike fuel sammuel requires and all those little child sized ghost costumes the watchers use we just ran out of money.


Lol?


All kidding aside if we had everything they had there really wouldn't be different flavors of codexes. My concern is more toward balancing codexes instead of homogenizing them.

[Master Avoghai]

There's also another reason that has nothing to do with game or fluff : release date.

 

It's safe to say that we don't have access to storm talon because we have the DT/NJF kit. Here it's a question of balance and difference between codex because the storm talon was already available for one yeR when the codex was release hence if they wanted to include it, they would have done it. Instead, they preferred to create a new one. (however why we don't have a flying transporter is beyond me).

 

No for things like stalker or grav guns it's the same thing as redeemers in previous edition : the codex SM was released AFTER and therefore contains things that weren't developed yet at the time where codex DA was in process. That's why the redeemer was not included in our previous codex and it's part of our armoury now.

 

I'd like to see the codex SM released in first for v7 and codex BA DA and SW released in the 2 following years. That would prevent some curious things like that and would be helpful to define what IS the modus operandi of each chapter because if they do so, things are not in the codex would be REALLY the things we don't use.

 

So patience, you'll get grav guns in 5 years as well as stalkers ( but I wouldn't bet on centurion they are too much IF/IH-tainted)

 

Anyway, hunters/stalkers aren't that good : no interception, they require a precious HS slot. The AA autocannon is far better... And the ICarus is not bad... Particulary with a divination Libby using it :devil:

[Onisuzume]

Because GW wants us to use FW/Allies or be mostly helpless against flyers.

[Major_Gilbear]

@ Master Avoghai:

 

I agree to some extent about the release date, but there is something else to consider too: what comes in each kit.

 

What I mean by this is that where a kit offers options that were not present previously, DA will get the new options next codex around because that's what in the kit now. Great example of this is the new Tac sqaud kit, which now includes Grav weapons - DA will therefore get them in the next release, at least for Tac squads and Company Vets.

 

However, there are some kits which are self-contained, which the DA could have had in this codex but didn't, and therefore highlights that some of the restriction is clearly balance- and variety-based. Examples of this include the Thunderfire, fliers, and the Land Speeder Storm. I therefore don't see DA getting the Stalker/Hunter (pity) nor do I see them getting Centurions (hooray!).

 

I also think that GW are well aware that both DA and BA are quite Codex to a majority extent, and assume that players who want the Sternguard, Hunters, Centurions, Vanguard, Honour Guard, Thunderfires and such will just use the reguloar SM Codex to represent those forces: the DA and BA codexes therefore focus on the elements that are more unique and thematic to those armies instead.

 

I would have liked to see Grav weapons added via FAQ though, just because I'm a bit completionist that way, and I'm a little sad that the Company Veterans weren't given jump pack options - even if this was an option restricted to Command Squads or such. On the whole though, it's no biggie, and I'm otherwise very glad that the DA codex is decent and fair this edition around.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Because otherwise we may as well be inside the Space Marine codex like the Templars...obviously they will not let us have everything and our own goodies, as that would be pointless and ruin even more of the fragile balance the game already has. Besides, if you want to use it, then utilise the allies chart in the Rule Book. There is nothing stopping you from using that.

[march10k]

Cause we have a separate codex?  Why don't they have access to Dark Talons, PFGs, and scoring terminators.

[Master Avoghai]

@ Major Gilbear

We do agree indeed I just want to discuss this point

However, there are some kits which are self-contained, which the DA could have had in this codex but didn't, and therefore highlights that some of the restriction is clearly balance- and variety-based. Examples of this include the Thunderfire, fliers, and the Land Speeder Storm. I therefore don't see DA getting the Stalker/Hunter (pity) nor do I see them getting Centurions (hooray!).

The fact that a boxset is self sufficient doesn't mean that we can't have acces to it. Like we say it's all a matter of balance.

Following your reasoning, the WW or the vindies are self sufficient sets so they could be forbidden to DA.

 

The reason they're not is because :

1/ DA don't have alternative options

2/ those tanks are not chapter related like a Baal Predator for example.

3/ there's nothing in the DA modus operandi that goes against this use (example AB squadron vs independent AB.)

 

Stalkers/hunters to me gather the 3 points too.

Nothing in their description say they are linked to a chapter, DA don't have an alternative Ground-to-Air weapon and their tactical flexibility and their research of superiority make totally believable a stalker with DA crew.

 

In the opposite, I perfectly understand they don't have the storm talon for point 1. Or the vanguard or thunderfire for point 3. I also don't see them trusting centurion over terminators.

 

Like I've said the only thing I don't understand is the absence of storm raven.

They are no more BA/GK specific and we don't hâve Antony flying transport... And since DA are described to use thunderhawks, there's nothing in their modus operandi forbidding them to use flying transport.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

GW wants you to collect several armies that's why different armies get different "toys". There's no fluff reason, or game mechanics reason.. just the monetary reason. These are the cold hard facts and we have to enjoy what we have. For those with bigger wallets or good bartering skills they can have several armies thus can enjoy every toy in the SM range.

[Master Avoghai]

@ Luc'

 

Sometimes monetary reasons and fun reasons can come together...

 

I'm happy not to be allowed to play wave scorpions or necron pastry... ;-)

[Major_Gilbear]

@ Master Avoghai:

 

The Stalker/Hunter steps on the toes a bit of the Nephilim (which GW want us to buy), despite the Nephilim being a bit fail at its supposed desgined role.

 

The Centurions step on the toes of the the DW a bit, and are not part of the 1st Company. GW don't want the DW to be outshone in a codex that features them heavily.

 

The Land Speeder Storm and the Scout Bikes allow scouts to compete for the role that the Ravenwing is exclusively earmarked for (BTW; small fluff modifcation this edition too - the Assault Company used to field non-RW bikes and Land Speeders in previous fluff, but we are now told in the latest codex that they don't). GW don't want the RW to be outshone in a codex that features them heavily.

 

The Storm Talon competes with the likes of the Dark Talon and the Vengeance, whilst the Storm Raven allows Dreads to deploy without Drop Pods (which is a thematically a no-no for the DW as they are supposed to teleport/deepstrike in if you want to move them fast).

 

Don't forget either that some previously-specific units have also become more widespread (or even universal) since their release - the Typhoon, the Storm Talon, and the Crusader for example. Sometimes for balance, but often for sales/kit loadout reasons (like the Typhoon).

 

Lastly... If DA are Codex: Space Marines, but with unique extras, then why would anyone want to play/buy C:SM? Clearly there is a core of basic, "common" equipment that all Space Marine chapters have access to, and then each codex makes specific differentiations deliberately for theme reasons. That's not to say it in the fluff that the DA wouldn't have those units, but rather that the codex doesn't for the reasons outlined above. :)

[Master Avoghai]

The Hunter is not the NFJ equivalent.

Storm talon is NFJ and DT equivalent depending on how you equip it.

 

I fail to see WHERE a NFJ will step on the toes of the hunter/stalker whereas a ST with TLLC and CML won't...

 

Lastly... If DA are Codex: Space Marines, but with unique extras, then why would anyone want to play/buy C:SM? Clearly there is a core of basic, "common" equipment that all Space Marine chapters have access to, and then each codex makes specific differentiations deliberately for theme reasons. That's not to say it in the fluff that the DA wouldn't have those units, but rather that the codex doesn't for the reasons outlined above.

Re read my post : I'm not saying DA should have vanguards, thunderfire or centurion, I'm saying the exact contrary.

I'm just saying that the non presence of Stalker/Hunter in our codex is all a matter of release date and codex conception agenda than a balance/fluff reason.

 

I can bet that in the next BA and SW codex, you won't see any centurions or thunderfire but you WILL see a hunter in both... Just because they will be released after.

 

Please not that I'm not saying that GW should FAQ our codex to give us new toys. I can live without. I'm just saying that I'm ready to bet that in the next DA codex we'll see a stalker/hunter entry or A DA specific AA ground tank.

[Major_Gilbear]

The Hunter is not the NFJ equivalent.

Storm talon is NFJ and DT equivalent depending on how you equip it.

 

I fail to see WHERE a NFJ will step on the toes of the hunter/stalker whereas a ST with TLLC and CML won't...

 

DA could easily have been given Mortis Dreads to help deal with AA, but they weren't. They were given an "interceptor", which is poor in its role as a main dedicated AA nod. My comment was more that in an anti-air role, the only way DA will ever get the Stalker/Hunter is if the Nephilim is beefed up to make it the better choice. This is because the Neph is part of the RW, which (along with the DW)  is the reason d'etre of this codex.

 

 

Re read my post : I'm not saying DA should have vanguards, thunderfire or centurion, I'm saying the exact contrary.

I'm just saying that the non presence of Stalker/Hunter in our codex is all a matter of release date and codex conception agenda than a balance/fluff reason.

 

I know what you're saying, and I agree excpet for the lack of S/H soley being a release date issue!

 

I'm not trying to ignore the points your making or talk past you either, sorry! :) It's more that I try not to make too many comments in isolation when making a case for an argument as that just invites later posters to pounce on whtever you're written for essentially being an "incomplete" statement. Really, I was just re-iterating that it was unlikely to be a soley being a release date issue, and that it was more likely a conscious design decision (however bad that decision was).

 

I can bet that in the next BA and SW codex, you won't see any centurions or thunderfire but you WILL see a hunter in both... Just because they will be released after.

 

You're probably right, although I can also see the DA getting a unique flyer instead (like the Neph, but better).

 

 

Please not that I'm not saying that GW should FAQ our codex to give us new toys. I can live without. I'm just saying that I'm ready to bet that in the next DA codex we'll see a stalker/hunter entry or A DA specific AA ground tank.

 

I understand and agree with the first part of this comment! :)

 

The second part... I wouldn't be shocked to see another needless kit that is DA-specific and is also dedicated AA ground tank - we already got similar specific kits that are not needed at all, and you could argue that that C:SM did too in the form of Centurions. :P

[Phoebus]

I'm leaning with Master Avoghai on this one.

I don't see how it made sense for Codex: Dark Angels to be released before Codex: Space Marines (other than the rule of cool, that is). To cut to the heart of the chase, even if the designers were designing both Codices side by side and consciously omitted Wargear, Units, and Characters from the Dark Angels for one reason or another, the design philosophy is not being adequately advertised.

Ideally, Codex: Space Marines should be designed and released first*. It aims to represent the baseline of the Adeptus Astartes: the Ultramarines, and those Chapters whose organizational structure is, more or less, informed by the Codex Astartes. Those Chapters, more or less, also fit within the mainstream of the institution where their equipment is concerned.

Once you've figured out how the mainstream is equipped and goes about fighting wars, now you can make an informed decision as to how the Chapters on the fringe or in the shadows go about their business. Maybe the Dark Angels don't want anything to do with Stormravens or grav-weapons for any number of reasons, for instance. That decision may very well have to do with game balance issues, or Games Workshop wanting to encourage gamers to invest in multiple armies, or any other reason already proposed here. There really should be a sensible, background-related reason that's provided by the folks developing the game, though. Much like there's a stated reason for why the Dark Angels prefer the Hunter-class destroyer in Battlefleet: Gothic, for instance, I don't think it's unfair to say that players deserve a stated reason for the absence of a certain item or the preference for something else.

* Truth be told, if it had been my product to peddle, I would have released Codex: Dark Angels as a mega-supplement to Codex: Space Marines. I would have focused almost exclusively on the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, and the Ravenwing - as well as those Vehicles and Wargear unique to the Unforgiven. As the Greenwing is technically almost indistinguishable from Codex Battle Companies and Reserve Companies, I would have focused primarily on the elements within it that are, again, unique to the Unforgiven: making the Company Masters distinguishable from Codex Captains, for instance; or giving the option for Characters (Apothecaries, Champions, Veteran Sergeants) to be upgraded to a member of the Inner Circle (and thus bestow on them, but not their squad, Preferred Enemy, etc.).

But now I'm rambling...