Belial not up for a challenge

[ZONKEY]

Hello

 

I am just wondering if other people have trouble with belial in challenges, I find unless belial is packing a thunder hammer a and storm shield he folds faster than superman on on laundry day.

 

Any advice is he worth the points should I take ravenwing to guide my terminators in?

[Bryan Blaire]

Why so, Zonkey?

[Surrender_Monkey]

Belial isn't really a duelling character, his sword is great for beating up things like Wraithknights and Riptides, but he's going to bounce of anything with a 2+ save and get killed. Thunder Hammer Belial isn't really anything special either, since he only has three wounds and lacks eternal warrior.

 

Most of Belial's cost comes in making Terminators troops and allowing for an inch perfect deep strike, you shouldn't really be sending him after the enemy warlord, if your opponent has monstrous creatures he will ruin their day, otherwise have him beat up enemy troops choices and weaker combat units.

[ZONKEY]

I don't send him after any war lords, they come hunting for him. People send heavy duty characters to flatten him such as typhus,calgar I drop him near objectives but they seek him out

 

Any tactics are most welcome :)

[Bryan Blaire]

Use that to your advantage. If they are purposefully pursuing a character, keep him moving so they may not pay as much attention to what you are doing elsewhere on the table. If you can keep one of their big boys semi-ineffective because they are chasing down Belial, then you have already stolen some of the initiative away from your opponent.

[[TA]Typher]

Hello

 

I am just wondering if other people have trouble with belial in challenges, I find unless belial is packing a thunder hammer a and storm shield he folds faster than superman on on laundry day.

 

Any advice is he worth the points should I take ravenwing to guide my terminators in?

 

 

I think he's worth it. He's a little underpowered compared to armies HQ's, but his abilities help the DW army as a whole. Dropping a whole unit without scatter can cripple your enemies. If you run him just using his Homer and not his non-scattering ability, then bikes might not be a bad choice. In that case though I'd take Azrael... that way the Terms are still scoring.

 

I cover Belial's loadout at length in the Tactica. I've tried to take others point of views and added when one option is better than the others.

 

In terms of Challenges though, the general summary of it is, if you take the sword only take challenges that you have a chance to win. Which is basically subpar close combat opponents or enemies that you can guarantee you will kill before they strike. Avoid anything with a 2+ Saves as your chance to harm them is very low.

 

The hammer can double out most HQs in the game, which does make it better in most challenge circumstances. Try to avoid things that would kill you before you get to swing though. But, even if you can't avoid those insta-death hits the 3+ Invul is nice.

 

Over all he's not a close combat beast like Lsyander or the custom Chapter Master C:SM can make. There is no getting around it, we just have to deal with it. close combat for us becomes a chess game of positioning and picking the best options and percentages, instead of the one option auto-win that some armies get. Pretty much all the HQ's i our codex are more support oriented than individual killing monsters.

[Lysere]

 

Hello

 

I am just wondering if other people have trouble with belial in challenges, I find unless belial is packing a thunder hammer a and storm shield he folds faster than superman on on laundry day.

 

Any advice is he worth the points should I take ravenwing to guide my terminators in?

 

 

I think he's worth it. He's a little underpowered compared to armies HQ's, but his abilities help the DW army as a whole. Dropping a whole unit without scatter can cripple your enemies. If you run him just using his Homer and not his non-scattering ability, then bikes might not be a bad choice. In that case though I'd take Azrael... that way the Terms are still scoring.

 

I cover Belial's loadout at length in the Tactica. I've tried to take others point of views and added when one option is better than the others.

 

In terms of Challenges though, the general summary of it is, if you take the sword only take challenges that you have a chance to win. Which is basically subpar close combat opponents or enemies that you can guarantee you will kill before they strike. Avoid anything with a 2+ Saves as your chance to harm them is very low.

 

The hammer can double out most HQs in the game, which does make it better in most challenge circumstances. Try to avoid things that would kill you before you get to swing though. But, even if you can't avoid those insta-death hits the 3+ Invul is nice.

 

Over all he's not a close combat beast like Lsyander or the custom Chapter Master C:SM can make. There is no getting around it, we just have to deal with it. close combat for us becomes a chess game of positioning and picking the best options and percentages, instead of the one option auto-win that some armies get. Pretty much all the HQ's i our codex are more support oriented than individual killing monsters.

 

This is how most HQ characters are, and should be. Placing them in the best position to do the most damage while avoiding the counter to them. Lysander, Calgar, Generic Shield Eternal CM. Other EW characters (Draigo I'm looking at you) are much harder to counter in melee. That's why you bring shooting elements along and wittle them down through a hail of gun fire.

[[TA]Typher]

Not much shooting in a DW list, let alone shooting that can clear a path to the enemy HQ and defeat multiple 2+ saves that all those you mentioned would have. If you don't run a mixed wing list you will have to deal with those other HQs in melee, hence the OP's point.

[ZONKEY]

I use him to drop in with a unit and pop enemy are which there is a lot of

[Pyro X]

Plus you can still him in or near a DW command with FNP banner, helps alot

[[TA]Typher]

If the enemy wont double you out AND you have a Sgt still you can always perform a Glorious intervention (Pg. 65 BRB) with the Sgt if Belial is losing. Not many people remember this rule, but I found it helpful in my last game vs Iron Hands.

[thevoodooman]

It does however make the hunt trait harder. You're having to rely on his unit to help kill the enemy warlord

[Master Avoghai]

I actually fail to see where other HQ are that better...

Sure you still have the bloodthirster or khorne juggernaut-mounted Lord but those are specifically CC oriented.

Moreover Part of Belial cost is linked to the fact he turn termis into troops. So it's safe to say that he's more a 150-175pts character In term of pure game effect.

 

And look what you have for this cos in other codex... Not better really.

The only comparable character is the WS leader with hammer bike and shield as they both turn unit into troops. He's slightly better in CC but cost 245pts so...

 

I find that Belial is a nice character on his own. Both types are useful but have different targets.

Actually the main problem doesn't come from Belial itself.

It comes from the fact that if I take a command squad to get a champ with AP2 to have an alternative in CC I lose a troops choice.

If I play a standard squad I cannot give the sgt a TH for the same purpose.

 

If the DW command squad would be scoring or if I could give a TH to the sgt Belial would be perfect.

[march10k]

~shrug~  I'm bored to tears with the argument that if your warlord doesn't have a 2++, EW,  and 2+ FNP along with an AP2 force weapon that ignores invulnerable saves while striking at I6, he's just not worthy of answering challenges.  Run Belial near or in a unit of knights.  If the enemy warlord is superior in melee, charge him with the knights and smite him...before or after he charges Belial.  Does it really matter which?  Realistically, though, the enemy warlord will avoid your knights like the plague, allowing Belial to shred at will with whatever loadout you give him.  All of your paranoia about letting your warlord into melee with an enemy warlord?  Guess what, nearly every non-DA player feels the same way!  There's a support group for that, it's called "everyone," and they meet at the bar.  You don't take Belial as a hunter of enemy warlords.  Guess what?  The guy who spends 300 points on a melee monster warlord has even bigger problems.  He's worried about getting tarpitted by a mob of guard or gaunts or orks or kroot or whatnot.

[[TA]Typher]

Chapter master with l shield eternal vs 4 smiting Knights. The Knight Master would decline the challenge.

 

12 S10 attacks vs shield eternal chapter master

Attacks: 12

Hit Chance: 50%

Hits: 6

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 5

Saved Wounds: 4.167

Unsaved Wounds: 0.833

Models Killed: 0.208

 

Even charging with smite mode you aren't going to kill a EW, 3+ invuln HQ, and in the next combat subphase it will suck for you if he has a ap2 weapon.

 

I'd much rather you waste your smite mode on my EW HQ than something they will actually kill. With a average of only 83% to inflict one wound even while charging and smiting on my HQ they are hardly terrifying.

 

I suppose at most you are tieing him and his unit up abit, but if he's equiped correctly you will lose this combat as he kills knights every subphase and tanks their attacks allowing his unit to never be diminished adding to how fast the knights die. And, after your smite mode you AP4 hits won't do much.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Belial is a special character, which means you have to take him with his pros and cons. He's not the only SC in the game that will have trouble if a costumized beatstick comes at him. You dont take Belial because he's a beatstick or a tank. You take him because he gives you terminators as troops and as bonus he's not bad at killing the regular Joes..  It's just the same as with the previous codex Belial. Jst accept the fact that if something really mean wants to kill him, he will die, just like 90% of the HQ's out there.

[Master Avoghai]

 

Chapter master with l shield eternal vs 4 smiting Knights. The Knight Master would decline the challenge.

 

12 S10 attacks vs shield eternal chapter master

Attacks: 12

Hit Chance: 50%

Hits: 6

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 5

Saved Wounds: 4.167

Unsaved Wounds: 0.833

Models Killed: 0.208

.

If you use the smite mode then the SM character would have to use the 3+ Inv so it's 1/3 of unsaved wounds (1-2) In return, the commander will make few wounds... (4A 3hits 1W) He'll lose and may flee or will stay with one remaining wound against a forest of S6 hits to saturate his 2+ save... I don't think it's a good plan for him...

 

Don't also forget that remaining W caused during the challenge cannot be reported to the rest of the fighting Models but let's suppose this occurs.

 

Belial and 5 knights gets charged by The SM lord and 5 bikes.

 

The knight champion takes the challenge of the SM Lord. Belial + remaining knights smite and cause 8W. 5 are allocated to the bikes. All die.

3 non allocated W remains.

THEY MUST BE ALLOCATED TO THE SM LORD.

 

Indeed you cannot reallocate W caused by a challenge outside of it BUT you can (and must) allocate to a challenge W that have been caused out of it.

 

Funny huh?

[Varizel]

 

 

Chapter master with l shield eternal vs 4 smiting Knights. The Knight Master would decline the challenge.

 

12 S10 attacks vs shield eternal chapter master

Attacks: 12

Hit Chance: 50%

Hits: 6

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 5

Saved Wounds: 4.167

Unsaved Wounds: 0.833

Models Killed: 0.208

.

If you use the smite mode then the SM character would have to use the 3+ Inv so it's 1/3 of unsaved wounds (1-2) In return, the commander will make few wounds... (4A 3hits 1W) He'll lose and may flee or will stay with one remaining wound against a forest of S6 hits to saturate his 2+ save... I don't think it's a good plan for him...

 

Don't also forget that remaining W caused during the challenge cannot be reported to the rest of the fighting Models but let's suppose this occurs.

 

Belial and 5 knights gets charged by The SM lord and 5 bikes.

 

The knight champion takes the challenge of the SM Lord. Belial + remaining knights smite and cause 8W. 5 are allocated to the bikes. All die.

3 non allocated W remains.

THEY MUST BE ALLOCATED TO THE SM LORD.

 

Indeed you cannot reallocate W caused by a challenge outside of it BUT you can (and must) allocate to a challenge W that have been caused out of it.

 

Funny huh?

 

I think you are wrong on this part. Models in challenge cannot be allocated wounds. All the wounds that can be allocated to models in challenge are wounds caused by challenge. I don't have the rulebook with me, so someone else can clarify, but i'm 150% sure this is the case cuz it is explicitly written.

 

 

[march10k]

Chapter master with l shield eternal vs 4 smiting Knights. The Knight Master would decline the challenge.

 

12 S10 attacks vs shield eternal chapter master

Attacks: 12

Hit Chance: 50%

Hits: 6

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 5

Saved Wounds: 4.167

Unsaved Wounds: 0.833

Models Killed: 0.208

 

Even charging with smite mode you aren't going to kill a EW, 3+ invuln HQ, and in the next combat subphase it will suck for you if he has a ap2 weapon.

 

I'd much rather you waste your smite mode on my EW HQ than something they will actually kill. With a average of only 83% to inflict one wound even while charging and smiting on my HQ they are hardly terrifying.

 

I suppose at most you are tieing him and his unit up abit, but if he's equiped correctly you will lose this combat as he kills knights every subphase and tanks their attacks allowing his unit to never be diminished adding to how fast the knights die. And, after your smite mode you AP4 hits won't do much.

Yikes!  Scary stuff...I guess knights aren't the answer to this problem...generic thundernators (in my case, belial's squad!) are...I just have to make sure Belial doesn't join them...and then it's 3-4 thundernators versus the enemy HQ...starting with 9-12 attacks at the same initiative as him, and having 1-2 meat shields in the form of the heavy weapon (if it's not a thundernator with a CML) and sergeant, a generic thundernator squad beats the enemy warlord in the long run...if he has a retinue, I guess that's what the knights target?

 

/edit/ if he has a retinue of thundernators, that's roughly 1/3 of his list in 6 models, and that means it's time for dakka. 56 assorted twinlinked shots will bring down 2-3 of them on a bad day, and 4 on a good day, no?  If the enemy warlord tanks some of those, then he's thrown his EW rule straight out the window.

[facmanpob]

 

 

If you use the smite mode then the SM character would have to use the 3+ Inv so it's 1/3 of unsaved wounds (1-2) In return, the commander will make few wounds... (4A 3hits 1W) He'll lose and may flee or will stay with one remaining wound against a forest of S6 hits to saturate his 2+ save... I don't think it's a good plan for him...

 

Don't also forget that remaining W caused during the challenge cannot be reported to the rest of the fighting Models but let's suppose this occurs.

 

Belial and 5 knights gets charged by The SM lord and 5 bikes.

 

The knight champion takes the challenge of the SM Lord. Belial + remaining knights smite and cause 8W. 5 are allocated to the bikes. All die.

3 non allocated W remains.

THEY MUST BE ALLOCATED TO THE SM LORD.

 

Indeed you cannot reallocate W caused by a challenge outside of it BUT you can (and must) allocate to a challenge W that have been caused out of it.

 

Funny huh?

 

 

I think you are wrong on this part. Models in challenge cannot be allocated wounds. All the wounds that can be allocated to models in challenge are wounds caused by challenge. I don't have the rulebook with me, so someone else can clarify, but i'm 150% sure this is the case cuz it is explicitly written.

 

 

Varizel is correct, wounds do not overspill....

 

From the Rulebook

 

OUTSIDE FORCES

Whilst the challenge is ongoing, only the challenger and

challengee can strike blows against one another. Wounds

from other attackers cannot be allocated against either character

- simply resolve the Wound allocation step as if the two

characters were not there. Of course, this means a unit fighting

an enemy unit consisting of only a single character model, such

as Daemon Prince, will not be able to strike blows at all if that

Daemon Prince is in a challenge.

[Master Avoghai]

My bad, I thought it was more blurry... Because in this situation, it's not a matter of attacking specifically a challenger but allocating wound caused in a unit he's part of.

 

But the first part remain true. The math is wrong and the SM lord should suffer 2W, while causing few in return...

[facmanpob]

The wound pool stays with the part of the fight that it refers to.... Wounds generated in a challenge stay in the challenge, wounds generated outside a challenge stay outside of the challenge.

[[TA]Typher]

Eeks sorry guys i forgot to click "ignores armor" it was late and I blame my space marine implants that failed to keep me sharp. The stats should have been...

 

 

Attacker Group 1

Attacks: 12

Hit Chance: 50%

Hits: 6

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 5

Saved Wounds: 3.333

Unsaved Wounds: 1.667

Models Killed: 0.417

Options: Ignore Armour

 

So the charging, smiting knights now do 1 wound on average and have a 60% chance at inflicting 2. Stil easily survivable. If your dice are hot (and he doesn't look out sir them) and he's only a 3 wound HQ you could defy the odds at take him down. I'm usually not the lucky.

 

They then drop down to this afterward (using a 2+ save)

 

Attacker Group 1

Attacks: 8

Hit Chance: 50%

Hits: 4

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 3.333

Saved Wounds: 2.778

Unsaved Wounds: 0.556

Models Killed: 0.139

 

AP4 and 2 attacks each is only 56% to inflict 1 wound. This number drops if they lost a knight in the preceeding combat.

 

I agree with you March, PF or TH would work better as they will stay consistant each round. Also baring being able to kill the HQ, good positioning would allow you to kill his unit instead. Not all HQs are fearless. In my Ironhands batrep i did that to his unkillable CM and caused him to break.

[JJD]

I have to agree that belial is a versatile character who's atributes fit well with a DW list. That said he is obviously not built for challeneges. In which case can someone explain his warlord trait. I know I'm new but this just doesn't make sense.

[JJD]

Picture the scene

Belial - Ok squad the enemy HQ has potentially important information about a member of the Fallen. As such it is vital that I be present when he is captured. That said he looks kind of badass so if you could take him on whilst I cower at the back that would be just super.