Belial not up for a challenge

[[TA]Typher]

Picture the scene

Belial - ok squad the enemy HQ has potentially important information about a member of the fallen. As such it is vital that I be present when he is captured.that said he looks kind of badass so if you could take him on whilst I cower at the back that would be just super.

 

The Hunt says that either he or his unit can kill the enemy warlord. It's perfect as he will probably be hiding behind them like a Skaven Lord.

 

Lol.

[JJD]

On this topic. Does a charater with a codex designated warlord trait have to take it or is it like primaris psychic power in that you roll on the table but can sub in the designated trait.

[[TA]Typher]

Yes. It's like wargear on their profile.

[JJD]

Sorry is that yes he has to take it (like some war gear) or yes he can sub it out (like war gear with options)

[Cactus]

Yes, he has to use the specified trait. It's like his wargear in the sense that you can't swap it for something else.

[ChaosRising]

Sorry is that yes he has to take it (like some war gear) or yes he can sub it out (like war gear with options)

He must use the trait listed unless (like Azrael) it says that he can choose his warlord trait.

[JJD]

Ok thanks.

 

In that case how useful do people find his trait in light of what has been discussed so far. Do you seek out the enemy warlord with Belial and his unit or do you ignore this trait. Maybe you take a second HQ and use that as your warlord in the hope of rolling something more useful.

[ChaosRising]

I have a 1k game tomorrow and am toying with running Belial and Ezekiel (or a generic librarian) in the same list and popping in the 3 RW bikes from Dark Vengeance (among other things). Given that Belial would be my warlord, I am thinking about keeping him in Reserve and DS'ing him in only when I really need him. This will (a) keep him alive pretty much indefinitely, (b) nearly guarantee that he arrives where he should (thanks to the bikes) and © allow me to use him as a one-model unit of reinforcements if things start to look bad for the D.A.

 

Most likely I'll be fielding 4 combat squads of Tac marines, 1 5-man assault squad, and 1 5-man Dev squad. If I have time, I'll put my finalized list on here in the near future.

[Master Avoghai]

Ok thanks.

 

In that case how useful do people find his trait in light of what has been discussed so far. Do you seek out the enemy warlord with Belial and his unit or do you ignore this trait. Maybe you take a second HQ and use that as your warlord in the hope of rolling something more useful.

Generally I don't bother on warlord traits... It's sometimes a bonus but often not that interesting.

Actually only Azrael is interesting because since you can choose you can adapt...

 

But I don't base my strategy on a warlord trait.

[march10k]

( nearly guarantee that he arrives where he should (thanks to the bikes)

You missed the fact that he (and his unit) deepstrikes scatter-free without needing a bike to guide him in...

[Polythemus]

Belial's weapons  load out will be based on the supporting elements of the list and how you want to use him.

A. if you give him the th/ss he's being equiped for challenges. send with knights or perhaps charge him from a LR.

B. if sword hes being equipped for flexible use/monster hunting. consider the squad he is with and drop him/transport him accordingly.

C. if claws well, i question that you might reconsider A or B

 

Belial can take out other characters, but terminators as a rule are best for taking out troops. Not alot of EW in the game when facing other armies. as in all 40k you need to try to minimize your opponents strengths and maximize yours.  if you let belial get in hand to hand with a bloodthirster, well that wasnt very smart movement on your part.

 

as for he above scenario with DWK charging a chapmaster with burning blade (S7 AP2 incandescent), 2+/3++, and EW. hes pretty much the same as the blood thrister. shoot him with your crusader first then charge that punk. or better yet kill his troops then win. if someone has spent that much on character. make sure he pays for that descision by out manuevering him.

 

Anecdotally, my 1750 deathwing list has a presciencing libby on a bike. therefore those knights have a 96% chance to get rerolls to hit, so that 6 hits becomes 9 hits, and then ~ dead CM unless his rolls are hot. as stated above lists must be built together with consideration of supporting factors.

[[TA]Typher]

If belial is in a unit of knights that charge a EW(shield eternal) chapter master with artificer armor... He would issue a challenge, Belial would refuse and not be able to fight... So 4 Knights and 1 Knight master with smite mode, charge bonus AND re-rolls from a nearby Librarian.. Still wouldn't kill the CM on average.

 

 

4 smiting Knights

Attacks: 12

Hit Chance: 75%

Hits: 9

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 7.5

Saved Wounds: 5

Unsaved Wounds: 2.5

Models Killed: 0.625

Options: Reroll Hit, Ignore Armour

 

Knight master

Attacks: 4

Hit Chance: 75%

Hits: 3

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 2.5

Saved Wounds: 2.083

Unsaved Wounds: 0.417

Models Killed: 0.104

Options: Reroll Hit

 

 

Even in this amazingly hard hitting scenario you are averaging 3 wounds. If he's Iron Hands he could start to gain those back. My point is that a EW model can soak a ton of damage. If this was a 3 wound model, like Lsyander he could Look out sir after he took 2 wounds. Basically ensuring that he squad survives and possibly wins combat against our hardest hitting unit.

 

Ideally you'd sacrifice your knight master to the challenge and hammer his unit with everyone else making them run. Hopefully the enemy isn't fearless or Belial has to take the challenge next turn.

 

In subsequent rounds you are only AP4 with the Knights, so MEQ would have a good chance to win against you.

 

Dimissing a EW HQ as being able to be midigated through shooting just isn't going to happen in a DW list unless you opponent makes some serious mistakes (leaves a unit). This gets even more unlikely if they are in a vehicle. My Iron Hands batrep is a great example of this. There just isn't enough shooting in a DW list. Remember you have to kill models to get to him, defeat his look out sir rolls , and then wound and defeat his armor.

 

As we can see in mathhammer trying to one-shot him in a single round of combat is very unlikely, not impossible, but very unlikely as he can always look out sir before he attempts his last wound. Causing him to run or whittling him down with powerfist attacks is your only real practical option. Against MEQs PF terms are better than Knights as they are AP 2 every round, instead of just one.

 

With the april FAQ DW Sgts usually die first, as the PF a normal term has is much better than his power sword. So... If you are facing a EW hard hitting model, like a CM or Gazgul Thraka, you might not want to waste you Sgt if Belial is in that unit. Removing a normal term instead would free Belial (at least for one combat) to attack the unit and avoid death as the Sgt dealt with the challenging EW HQ.

[FerociousBeast]

This is an aggravating thread. Belial is a good challenge character. He has a 2+ save, a 3++ save, hits on I5, has at least 3 attacks, and wounds on 2+/3AP. There are some special characters and gear builds that will consistently beat this configuration, but not many. The fact that one or two of those specific gear builds is currently being spammed doesn't mean that Belial is not a good character. The fact that some of you may regularly face armies that utilize better challenge characters than Belial doesn't mean that Belial is not a good character.

[[TA]Typher]

This is an aggravating thread. Belial is a good challenge character. He has a 2+ save, a 3++ save, hits on I5, has at least 3 attacks, and wounds on 2+/3AP. There are some special characters and gear builds that will consistently beat this configuration, but not many. The fact that one or two of those specific gear builds is currently being spammed doesn't mean that Belial is not a good character. The fact that some of you may regularly face armies that utilize better challenge characters than Belial doesn't mean that Belial is not a good character.

If he hits on I5 then his Invuln is 4+ not 3+ as he doesn't have a SS.

 

The number of characters that would dominate him isn't a small thing. A lot of people run C:SM so the Eternal Shield isn't rare. I forget the percentage but it was a majority of players that play SM. Other codexs have them too, Draigo, Gazgul Thraka, Abandon, Typhus, Mephiston , Lsylander, Logan Grimnar etc etc..

 

Are just the EW HQ's that can insta-kill Belial and easily survive his attacks.

 

Others have a very high chance to take the Lord of the Deathwing down without much of a fuss. Astorath if you are using the SOS, The Sanginator (if he has his Power weapon is an Axe or is you are using the SOS), Arjac..  just to name a few. We could get nit-picky and add many more, but I don't want to de-volve this to arguing over similar abilities.

 

Those are just the Codexs I know. I'm not sure about some of the Xenos, but we can see some of the commonly used HQ's have a above average chance to take him down. This is the crux of the many debates of topics we see here. It isn't that he's a bad choice, just that he's not a great one. We can point out all those HQ's that he would easily beat, but pretty much all of those have armies will have more than 30 models in their lists. As Deathwing our units have to perform. We don't have the luxury of carrying around dead-weight like others do.

 

With that said I agree he isn't a bad character. He's just not the top of the pile when it comes to the best character. Like I said before, using him compared to some others takes more skill, positioning and luck, but that doesn't make him bad. He's just harder to use compared to them.

 

You have to remember not everyone camps out in this forum like some of us do. When you see the same topics over and over it isn't to aggravate you, it's because they didn't see a similar topic that got buried 6 pages back. We should be supporting those new people. Sometimes new ideas pop up or different tactics.

 

I'm a loyal Deathwing player so I'll play them even if Belial had Guardsmen stats.

 

Anyway.. that's just my perspective.

[march10k]

I don't know about the others, but  Gazkhul is a chump if you get the charge against him. 

 

As for "knights can't insta-gib a 4-wound EW 3++ HQ on the charge" being a reason to equip Belial with TH/SS...come again?  If they can't kill said enemy commander, giving Belial a storm shield makes him fit to face the guy?  The only time that the TH/SS combo is justified on Belial is when the SoS makes him likely to lose but the TH/SS makes him likely to win.  In arguing that the enemy warlord will always be immune to knights, you're arguing that he'll be so dramatically superior to Belial that even the SS won't save him, and forget about killing the enemy with a single thunderhammer.

 

/edit/

 

Sorry if that came across as peevish.  It's just that what knights or thundernators can't handle, Belial can't handle, no matter how you equip him.

[Galamere]

For me, as with our whole army, I look at it as part of the whole. Yes Belial isn't as good as some, but that's one on one, and for DA most especially we shouldn't fight alone. Softening up the guys that will be CCing you with Knight grenades, bombs or plasma templates really even the odds here.

 

It's like complaining that an ethereal can't go toe to toe with anyone, no Tau player will care because that's not his job, or his job is to kill it in other ways.

 

Change out his storm bolter for a combi bolter and try and precision an enemy down, use other units to soften, don't play fair. We're after heretics, you know they won't be.

[[TA]Typher]

I don't know about the others, but  Gazkhul is a chump if you get the charge against him. 

 

As for "knights can't insta-gib a 4-wound EW 3++ HQ on the charge" being a reason to equip Belial with TH/SS...come again?  If they can't kill said enemy commander, giving Belial a storm shield makes him fit to face the guy?  The only time that the TH/SS combo is justified on Belial is when the SoS makes him likely to lose but the TH/SS makes him likely to win.  In arguing that the enemy warlord will always be immune to knights, you're arguing that he'll be so dramatically superior to Belial that even the SS won't save him, and forget about killing the enemy with a single thunderhammer.

 

Lol Gazgul is one of the toughness characters in game. having 5 S10 attacks if he doesn't charge (7 if he does) a 2+ invul for a FULL game turn (your turn and his), 2+/5++, Eternal Warrior and T5 is a chump? Damn.. I wonder what a CC monster is to you.

 

Belial's load out isn't always the answer here as positioning and having a Sgt take the challenge can help, but it does come in to play in other instances. As we've seen in the tactica and the debates within each has it's own merits. We can go around and around here, but the focus is on Challenges only. If Belial can double out a Non-EW HQ there is no need for a lengthy fight that has a probability of Belial losing if the dice aren't cooperating. In match-up where he won't be doubled out, and they don't have a 2+ save it's all about preference, with the SoS having advantages because of initiative.

 

Regarding the Knight debate I wasn't arguing that at all. The Statement was that the Knights would just handle the EW HQ. Mathhammer said they wouldn't on average. I added that you could except the challenge with your Knight master, thus freeing up Belial to attack the enemy unit instead of dying to the EW HQ. I gave numbers and solutions. I even have a batrep as an example. I don't see how any of that is a bad thing.

 

The OP asked for tactics and solutions. I gave mine and hopefully I was helpful. Add to the discussion.

[march10k]

Yeah, he's a chump.  He'll wreck your world if you avoid him.  That lets him dictate your movement and pop his waagh at the time and place of his choosing.  The key is to shove AP2 melee in his face as soon as possible to force him to pop the waagh early.  Then, afterwards, he's got a 5++ against AP2 and he folds like a cheap suit.

 

Twice, I've charged him with Belial's squad (after ventilating his 30-strong boyz squad with my DWA-assisted shooting burst of 4 hurribolters, 4 TL AssC, and 8 TLSB, plus a heavy flamer) on turn two, declined to face him with my sergeant, forcing him to pop the waagh, then directed my attacks at finishing his unit.  Ghazzy is then locked, he's not killing 5 termies in one phase.  Another unit counter-charges and finishes Belial's squad on the ork turn.  Ghazzy, alone and unafraid, with no more protection, then gets smote by the knights...he has to save two of the five wounds they put on to survive...can that happen?  Yes.  Is it likely?  No.  ...and, after that, the orks are done for.

 

Anyway, my point about Belial is that the window between the SoS being good enough and the TH/SS even being too weak (because he has no EW) is pretty small.  90% of the time, the SoS is plenty.  5% of the time, the TH/SS is in the sweet spot.  The other 5%, Belial has to duck challenges no matter how he's equipped.

[shabbadoo]

To make use of his Warlord Trait, in an age of HQ badarses, Belial really needs to have the TH & SS (which immediately brings him "up to the challenge"in all but extreme cases, seeing as he will then instant kill most things).  if you don't care so much about making use of his Warlord Trait, take a different set of weapons and go kill stuff that will not have much of a chance of killing him outright.

 

 

I don't know about the others, but  Gazkhul is a chump if you get the charge against him.

 

Ghazgkhul having a WS 6, T 5, W 4, Att 5 (that hit at Str 10, AP 2), a 2+ save, and the ability to call up a 2++ save for two player turns, at any time he wants to, makes him a chump?  You have a strange idea of what a "chump" is.

[[TA]Typher]

@March  I agree that is a good way to handle Gaz IF he's not in a battle wagon, or in a FNP Nob unit, OR if he's not in front of those thirty orks mitigating all that shooting with his 2+ save. My son plays Orks and I know for a fact that he's not always easy to deal with. Even in your example you've dedicated pretty much your whole force to do it.  What's the rest of the Orks doing while this is happening? Basically your whole force Vs his one unit. That says a lot. Like I said he's one of the toughest HQ's in the game. People don't need to dedicate that many points just to kill Belial. 

 

Of course our HQ is more of a support character instead of a Gazgul type monster.

 

I would disagree with you again on your Loadout percentages, but this can be subjective however depending on your local meta. In mine I see a lot of Marine players (all versions), Tau, Orks, Eldar and Chaos. I see tough HQ's frequently and my TH/SS helps if for nothing else to mitigate damage better.

 

It's funny now adamant we Dark Angel's Players are when it comes to Belial's load out. We are much more willing to change other aspects, but when it comes to this we all dig our heels in. Like I've said in the past tone is hard to convey in text, so I'll just say that I value your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.

[shabbadoo]

I guess everyone should just be happy that Belial retained his weapon options.  They didn't have to do that.