Ezekiel and DW command squad

[GreenMoss]

Playing around with using Librarian for HQ and want command squad for dakka banner. Rules say need an HQ in termie armor to use DW command squad. Am I understanding correctly that Lvl1 Librarian in termie armor can take that squad but Ezekiel can't? (since no option for terminator armor on him). 

[EPK]

You got it right.

[[TA]Typher]

That's how I read it.

 

On a different note, why Ezkiel in a shooting list? You are paying for abilities you shouldn't be using (IE: +1 WS everyone). A simple 65pt Lib is just as effictive if you give him prescience, and dramatically cheaper.

[GreenMoss]

That's how I read it.

 

On a different note, why Ezkiel in a shooting list? You are paying for abilities you shouldn't be using (IE: +1 WS everyone). A simple 65pt Lib is just as effictive if you give him prescience, and dramatically cheaper.

Agreed and that's what I had originally. But for my mixed Death/Greenwing list (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283282-expanding-newbie-army-to-1500-1750/) I need HQ in termie armor which then makes my libby 95 points - much closer to Ezekiel (and he would mesh with DWK unit I'm bringing nicely). Alas lvl1 it is. Feel free to add comments on that list if you get a chance. 

[GreenMoss]

Hell does that mean Azrael can't take it DW command squad either?!

[Bryan Blaire]

Hell does that mean Azrael can't take it DW command squad either?!

That is what that means...

[[TA]Typher]

Fluff-wise both should be able to take them, but whatever. Hopefully next edition we get a actual DA player to design our codex.

[Major_Gilbear]

Fluff-wise both should be able to take them, but whatever. Hopefully next edition we get a actual DA player to design our codex.

 

 

Given that I think Jervis has owned a few Dark Angel armies over the years... Be careful what you wish for! ;)

[march10k]

Fluff-wise, any member of the inner circle could have a DWCS...translation: any HQ character.  The rules are the rules, stop bringing fluff into the tabletop wargame rules, lol...a squad of marines according to fluff should cost 900 points (for 5 models!), have a 2+/3+, FNP (3+), three wounds apiece, eternal warrior, and assault 5 bolters at BS5.  Did I miss anything?  Oh, I5 and A4 with AP4 chainswords.

[shabbadoo]

Just because you want a certain option doesn't mean that they should have it.

Any Inner Circle really shouldn't have a DWCS any more than they should have one of the company Command Squads, which is what a DWCS is. Those squads are a part of the sub-command structure of their respective Companies, so if a DWCS shows up, Belial should be there as well. Leaders don't nab command sections from Companies just "Cuz I wants wun!" That just leads to instances of...

Azrael: "Hello. Get me Belail. He's out with some DW Knights assaulting an enemy stronghold? No matter. I need you to send me a DWCS. No, I don't need any other DW units, just the DWCS. I don't care what Belial's plans for them are, just send them. Now. Do I have a message for Belial? Why, yes, yes I do. Tell him to "suck it", if you would please."

A special Inner Circle Honour Guard is what the Inner Circle ICs should have access to rather than be plundering the prime resources of the various Companies. The DW is the 1st company, and DWCSs should stay with them and those that serve alongside them (i.e. TDA equipped ICs); same goes for RWCSs and the 2nd Company. So, don't wish for access to Deathwing next time around, but for Honour Guard- Dark Angels style of course- because that is what the Inner Circle ICs should have access to.

[EPK]

I agree with March. These restrictions are completely game-mechanics driven.

 

In my opinion, fluff-wise the DW Command would be Belial's entourage 9 times out of 10 anyway (which is what the old codex eluded to). I'd say they opened it up to anyone in TDA for a little extra versatility.

 

EDIT: I'm with Shabbadoo. I do however feel that Deathwing Knights can fit that honor guard role, at least in the way the dex is currently structured. Not a true honor guard I suppose.

[Dark_Master]

 

 

Hell does that mean Azrael can't take it DW command squad either?!

That is what that means...

I think GW missed a trick not giving Azrael and Ezekiel the option of TDA. I would have bought both.

 

DM

[Bryan Blaire]

I'm with Shabbadoo, I'm disappointed we didn't get an Inner Circle Honor Guard, not that unique characters that have unique artificer armor don't get to take a specific Company's command squad. Nothing would be gained by Azrael or Ezekiel being outfitted in TDA except a DWCS, but the benefits of Protector and Ezekiel's master-crafted bolt pistol (that adds an extra attack - something he couldn't get in TDA) would both be lost.

 

Really, no one but Belial should be able to take the DWCS.

[Phoebus]

I think the game is best when the background and the rules are more or less seamless.

 

There are certainly ideas that don't make sense: Azrael getting a Company Champion for his Command Squad, for instance, which makes about as much sense on paper as him not having a Champion at all. This is not one of them, though. Point of fact, the argument of whether it makes sense for Ezekiel to take Belial's Deathwing Command Squad shouldn't even enter into the equation. Even in a normal game it is possible to field two Deathwing Command Squads, since one is legally allowed to take one "For each HQ choice in your army equipped with Terminator armour ..."

 

If you are willing accept that both Belial and a Librarian clad in Terminator armour can simultaneously field their own Deathwing Command Squads, it becomes very difficult (in my eyes, at least) to reject the idea that one of the most powerful members of the Inner Circle (Ezekiel) or the Supreme Grand Master himself could not requisition a Deathwing Command Squad. Lest we begin to roll our eyes at the notion of multiple Deathwing Command Squads within the First Company, though, let us not forget that the newest background specifically avoids committing to a "100 Terminator" figure for them.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not here to tell you that the secrecy imparted by the background should be used to justify Apocalypse armies with half a dozen Terminator armour-clad HQ Choices, each with their own Deathwing Command Squad. For my part, I wonder if the Deathwing Knights would not have served a better role as an "Honour Guard"-equivalent, assignable to any Character with the Inner Circle rule regardless of what armour they wore. It would have been a much neater solution, I think.

[march10k]

Just because you want a certain option doesn't mean that they should have it.

Any Inner Circle really shouldn't have a DWCS any more than they should have one of the company Command Squads, which is what a DWCS is. Those squads are a part of the sub-command structure of their respective Companies, so if a DWCS shows up, Belial should be there as well. Leaders don't nab command sections from Companies just "Cuz I wants wun!" That just leads to instances of...

Azrael: "Hello. Get me Belail. He's out with some DW Knights assaulting an enemy stronghold? No matter. I need you to send me a DWCS. No, I don't need any other DW units, just the DWCS. I don't care what Belial's plans for them are, just send them. Now. Do I have a message for Belial? Why, yes, yes I do. Tell him to "suck it", if you would please."

A special Inner Circle Honour Guard is what the Inner Circle ICs should have access to rather than be plundering the prime resources of the various Companies. The DW is the 1st company, and DWCSs should stay with them and those that serve alongside them (i.e. TDA equipped ICs); same goes for RWCSs and the 2nd Company. So, don't wish for access to Deathwing next time around, but for Honour Guard- Dark Angels style of course- because that is what the Inner Circle ICs should have access to.

Um..Azrael is Belial's boss...he can take ANY forces he wants. Not only is he Belial's boss, he's the boss of ALL of the unforgiven. He can command the 2nd company command squad from ANY chapter of Unforgiven, for that matter.

Also, it's equine feces that Ezekiel unlocks the command squad of the 3rd company, but not the 1st or 2nd. Try this on for size (changes in red, takes place before he ascended to command the deathwing):

Ezekiel: "Hello. Get me Belail. He's out with his 7th squad assaulting an enemy stronghold? No matter. I need you to send me his command squad. No, I don't need any other units, just his apothecary, company champion, banna wava, and two best plasma gunners. I don't care what Belial's plans for them are, just send them. Now. Do I have a message for Belial? Why, yes, yes I do. Tell him to "suck it", if you would please."

My version fits PERFECTLY with the rules. It's no more or less absurd than your vignette. You're mixing fluff and rules, which never ends well.

[shabbadoo]

None of the Inner Cirlce Ics should be able to unlock what are considered to be actual Company Command Squads at all, and the only reason they can unlock the Command S4euqad entry is because that entry is a half-arsed measure to make a Command Squad seem to be what it really is not, that being an Honour Guard squad. It functions well enough as one, but does so in the plainest of ways so far as Chapter flavor is concerned. For them, that is what the Command Squad is meant to represent, not that they nabbed a Command Squad from one of the 3rd-9th Companies. That the point of view I choose to look at it from at least.

But, just because Azrael can do something doesn't mean that he ever will. if Azrael ever needs a DWCS more than anything else, he has obviously screwed up big time allocating the Chapter's resources. Basically, it is not ever going to happen that Azrael specifically needs a DWCS to accompany him, so he will leave it where it is going to be used best- under the command of Belial or another TDA IC, and among the DW. You know, where the DWCS can actually do things like use their very useful special rules, like Deathwing Assault and Vengeful Strike, which they can't use if Azrael is joined to the unit. it also allows them to fulfill their purpose, which is kind of important. The only time Azrael should be joining such a unit is in the midst of a battle where he is linking up with a DWCS. There is an event somewhat like this described in Siege of Vraks, Part 1, if you want a fluff reference. You will note that it is Interrogator-Chaplain Belphagor (in TDA) that a Deathwing Squad is running around with, not Azrael. That would of course have everything to do with Azrael (rightly) telling the Deathwing to do their job, which surely isn't hanging out with him, but with any ICs in TDA attached to the Deathwing. You see, the Deathwing have a...certain job....that they need to be doing that has absolutely nothing to do with Azrael's job, that being the overall commander of DA forces. And of course I am mixing fluff and rules- that is what people are supposed to do. If you don't, you get idiotic things like Kharne having a personal retinue of Noise Marines.

Sorry. Azrael is an overall commander, and while he does have ultimate authority over what units go where, he's simply not going to do certain things that are counter-productive to how his forces are built and organized, and he's certainly not going to mess with anything that works to a specific purpose that is a vastly more important than Azrael himself is. Chapter Masters come and go, but "The Mission" is all important. We all know that the purpose of a DWCS is not to protect the Chapter Master, but to protect those TDA ICs who Deepstrike into the @#$% in pursuit of "The Mission". The mere idea of changing that is utterly heretical.

And so there is no need for Azrael to have access to a DWCS. He should have access to his own retinue, as should all Chapter Masters. As we see, Codex: Dark Angels is the only Space Marine codex that doesn't have such a unit that falls outside of the normal Company structure. However, this is no basis for arguing that Azrael should therefore be able to nick units from wherever he wishes. What it is an argument for is for the inclusion of a retinue type of unit which every other Chapter in existence has except the Dark Angels. Of the units that DA didn't get, this type of unit is arguably the most egregious to have excluded. Oh, what they could have been...

So, for now, we are stuck with Command Squads filling the role of Honour Guard for our non-TDA Inner Circle ICs. At least the Standard Bearer in such a unit has access to the Dark Angels Chapter Banner (and Sacred Standards), which is what you should be finding next to Azrael, if anything. All of the non-company ICs don't wear TDA anyways, so neither should their retinues, which should also exist outside of the Company structure. The Command Squad does all of this, if in a very plain way. And you have to admit, at least Azrael will be there to accept challenges so that the Champion might live long enough to kill something with his Sword of Caliban.

[march10k]

Nothing to be sorry about, I'm just pointing out that you're using a fluff justification for half of a weird rule (while ignoring the mockery that the other half of said rule makes of said fluff), and fluff and rules never mix.  If you argue that nobody but Belial should be able to field a DWCS, that's one thing...but you started out by saying "the reason that Ezekiel can't is because he's not Belial," which is ridiculous in light of the fact that the lowliest chaplain or lexicanum can do so simply by donning TDA.  That's selective application of fluff to justify a rule...when the cited fluff is blown out of the water by another related rule.

 

So lets agree on this:

 

1.  Per fluff, only a given company's master (or perhaps its assigned chaplain) should be able to field said company's command squad.

 

2.  It's silly that Codicer Lackwit can field Belial's retinue simply because he chose to put on TDA when he rolled out of bed this morning, when even Azrael cannot, according to the rules, because he's not wearing TDA.

 

3.  Fluff and rules don't mix.

[Phoebus]

With respect, I rather disagree on some of those counts.

1. The background can support a number of reasons why a Character other than the Company Master might plausibly take to the field with a Company Command Squad. None of them are anything more than an exception to the rule, sure, but it's hardly an impossibility for this to happen.

'Dark Vengeance', for instance, ends with a summary that includes the Master taking just his Company's Veteran Sergeants to go after some Fallen. If there had been other, non-Fallen objectives to be achieved at the same time, is it that impossible that the Chaplain or a Librarian attached to the Company might lead its Command Squad? This is all hypothetical, of course, but it serves to show that the background does support a player's decision to field such a force.

2. I agree with that, to a point - that point being that it's difficult to imagine a situation when the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels wouldn't be able to summon to his side any element of his Chapter. Beyond that, though? The rules themselves expressly indicate that there is more than one Deathwing Command Squad, meaning that it doesn't simply have to come down to whim for a Character other than Belial to arrive with such a retinue. And this goes hand-in-hand with the background, which purposefully keeps the Deathwing manpower unknown.

But again, I'm not trying to say that a Deathwing Command Squad should be viewed as the ideal entourage for Azrael where background is concerned, much less in terms of game efficiency.

3. Yes, but that's not due to inherent incompatibility*. Rather, it comes down to human error. The people who write the Codices don't necessarily take into consideration the background or use it in the most logical ways when they design the various Characters and Units.

* I'm not saying that's necessarily your stance. I'm just trying to be clear about my point of view.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Playing around with using Librarian for HQ and want command squad for dakka banner. Rules say need an HQ in termie armor to use DW command squad. Am I understanding correctly that Lvl1 Librarian in termie armor can take that squad but Ezekiel can't? (since no option for terminator armor on him). 

This is the OP question, which has been answered. I get teh feeling there's an argument going for teh sake of arguing, which will lead nowhere. Agree to disagree and move on.

[march10k]

1.  Each chaplain has an assigned chaplain...naturally, he'd have second access to the command squad's services, after the master.  As for a librarian...well, at the master's discretion, anything is possible...for that matter, the master could put the command squad at the disposal of a local street walker, so that's not really saying anything!  The point is that it's silly, from a fluff perspective, that Sammy and Bels will never allow their command squads to deploy with a non-TDA character, even Zeke and Azzy. 

 

Because it can be assumed that the company master said it was okay, it should be assumed that ANY command squad can deploy with ANY headquarters...from a fluff perspective.  From a perspective of rules and game balance, I can see the unfair advantage in fielding a greenwing list of pure bolter dakka madness with a PFG libby (arguably broken in his points-efficiency) unlocking a deathwing command squad toting the dakkapole.  With a few storm shields, they're orders of magnitude less killable than a power armored command squad, so unlocking that with a 65 point character is a bit cheap, and I agree with GW's decision not to allow it.  Who wouldn't default to putting his dakkapole bearer in TDA if it was that cheap and easy to do so?  Even at the cost of buying the TDA upgrade for your HQ, it's still a fantastic option!

 

2.  Ok, issue put to bed!

 

3.  I think fluff and rules are inherently separate.  As I've said before, per fluff, a squad of marines is as powerful as a regiment of guard.  Naturally, the mechanics of the game could never allow that!  The developers make a reasonable effort to stay within shouting distance of the fluff when writing rules, such as disallowing death guard allies for ultramarines.  But to suggest that the rules by default follow the fluff, and any difference between the two is "human error...?"  The authors of novels are not required to anticipate the mechanics of the game when they write epic scenes of space marine heroism, while the rules-writers are required to keep the game fair, even when, as it often does, it means deviating from what the storytellers have spun for us.

 

/edit/

 

Luci,

 

I think (for a change...and by the grace of the Golden Throne) nobody's angry here.  It's merely an exchange of views in a level-headed and non-confrontational tone.

[Isiah]

march10k I think Chaplain Lucifer's point was that it was a discussion that can't be 'won' within the bounds of current Codex DA rules so will just go around in circles with no resolution.

 

It should always be realised that fluff logic is one thing -- the way they put the gameplay side of things together is quite another. The two don't always marry up.

 

Cheers

I

[shabbadoo]

While that is sometimes true, it isn't true for Codex: Dark Angels.

 

I do not see any of the main Chapter leadership needing access to anything other than an Honour Guard (a real one), seeing as they are in an overall command role and so will almost never be running amok with Deathwing anyways. What Azrael will be doing is coordinating most of the Chapter forces, wherever they may be. Ezekiel will be coordinating everything related to the Librariius. The Grand Master of Chaplains will be coordinating the Interrogator-Chaplains and the Chaplains. It will be the occasional Company Master (that has a force of DW attached to his Greenwing force) that will suit up in TDA, and perhaps be joined by a DWCS because he is the overall commander on-the-ground of that small force. Much more likely it will be a Librarian or Interrogator-Chaplain who will do so (because they are minions, and it is minions that you send out to do the dirty work), as working with the Deathwing...to a certain purpose... is their main purpose- it is what they do, so of course they can take TDA and associate unhindered with the Deathwing. As to the Inner Circle command level ICs, their main job is command and coordination, and they are not even necessarily on-the-ground when doing so. The current army list was written to reflect all of this. One might a well ask why Azrael or Ezekiel can not take a bike and join up with Ravenwing units. The resources are there, and they certainly have the authority to requisition a bike, so why can they not do this in the army list? How about a Ravenwing Land Speeder? How about a Nephilim Jetfighter? The answer is simple- they cannot do this because it is not what they do; it does not suit their overall purpose within the Chapter. The current army list is very much written with the fluff in mind, so it is very easy to use fluff to justify what is, and is not, allowed for in the army list. As it is, the army list is perfect in regard to who has access to what units so as to reflect the overall function of every unit in the Chapter, particularly the command elements. The only thing that really annoys me is that the Command Squad is 10 points too expensive, for no reason, and that the unit does not have an option to be upgraded to have the Inner Circle rule. That is really the only thing that has been left out of the unit.

[GreenMoss]

I was merely hoping I read the rules wrong ;p. Thanks, was definitely an interesting discussion though probably par for the course once somebody inadvertently pushes the dreaded "fluff vs crunch" button. I apologize. The horse is quite dead but two points I think are worth taking home. 

 

- Power armor command squad is 10 points more expensive than it should be. That's what started me on the whole DWCS route in the first place. General low utility of regular command squad compared to DW also contributes to this (fragile, weak champion, etc). 

 

- In any military detachment anywhere in the universe at any time in history whoever is the ranking officer at the time will take command even if all he's wearing is underwear and suspenders. Add to this equipment restrictions on higher-ranked characters and it's obvious that the mechanic of unlocking battle assets (command squad) by equipping a particular armor is poor design both crunchwise and fluffwise. 

[Isiah]

I wouldn't disagree on the last point at all <_<

 

Cheers

I

[Interrogator Stobz]

Poor rules design is what GeeDub is great at...nothing to see here, carry on ;)