Always vs Never

[Seahawk]

This special rule has been floating around to a few different codexes now:

"Shots fired by models with this special rule (excluding Snap Shots) are always precision shots." (codex special rule)

Well, what about blast weapons?

"...shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots."

When would this ever matter?

"If a building is occupied, a model within can choose to fire one of the emplaced weapons instead of his own."

Such as with the Fortress of Redemption's:

"One bunker annex has an emplaced missile silo with fragstorm missiles.../...upgrade the missile silo to have krakstorm missiles..."

Which are S8, AP3, Ordnance Barrage Large Blast.

So, the scattering blast is a weapon fired by the model with the special rule that says all shots are precision shots, overriding the BRB because page 7 says:

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

Did I just break the game a little more? Oopsies!

[Dam13n]

Well now look at what you've gone and done now... you naughty, naughty moderator! :P

 

Yes, you've located something broken... congratulations.

 

One must assume that an errata that adds "excluding snap shots and weapons with the blast special rule" should be incoming to undo this (pretty obvious) blunder. But, who knows when it comes to GW?

 

Personally I'd welcome a house rule of "in this case, when X fires an (emplaced) blast weapon, any to-wound roll of 6 allows the controlling player to allocate that wound, just as if it had come from a precision shot." to represent just how good X's understanding of the physics involved really is.

 

But I don't think we can doubt that, with the rules worded as they are, by (current) RAW - X can allocate the wounds from a blast weapon as though they were precision shots.

 

Oh dear - now how many Telions and Illics are we going to see manning Fortresses of Redemption before this gets Errata-ed or FAQ-ed.

 

:rolls eyes:

[Seahawk]

I don't intend to make use of this except when the opponent is "that kinda guy" and I won't feel bad.

I honestly keep find these rules breakages by reading one thing, then another, then cross referencing and thinking "Oh that'd be rebonkulous!"

Also, how about that Vindicare assassin, who also ignores Look Out, Sir!....

[Raeven]

Personally, I think Never over rules Always.

 

Blast shots will never be precision shots because you don't roll to hit.  It is the only condition placed on making a precision shot.  It is the only condition not met, even if all his hits are suppose to be precise.

 

Same argument as Snap Shots and Signums.  Snap shots have a condition that Signums do not over ride. 

[Ushtarador]

Personally, I think Never over rules Always.

 

Blast shots will never be precision shots because you don't roll to hit.  It is the only condition placed on making a precision shot.  It is the only condition not met, even if all his hits are suppose to be precise.

 

Same argument as Snap Shots and Signums.  Snap shots have a condition that Signums do not over ride. 

 

The snap shots vs. signum is actually a pretty good precedent, but on the other hand, you could also argue that codex trumps rulebook (though I agree that this is certainly not the idea).

[Gentlemanloser]

Page 7 Strikes again!!!

Seriously, how many times do I need to lament this awful rule, and how many broken things can we do with it, until GW errata it into something useable...

And Vindicare, gotta use the Vindicare.

Edit: Raeven, the Vindicare doesn't need to hit, or roll to hit.

Deadshot: Wounds caused by a Vindicare's shooting attacks are always allocated by the Vindicare's controlling player

[Raeven]

That is completely different from always a precision shot.

[Gentlemanloser]

Always versus Never.

 

Vindicare wins.  Codex > BRB.

[Raeven]

I don't disagree.  But not because Codex > BRB. 

 

The Vindicare allocates every wound he causes because the rules say so.  The Vindicare does not have Precision Shot.  Vindicare's have a special rule that let them allocate all their wounds with no restrictions.

 

 

Precision shot, the rule, specifically disallows you from allocating wounds from Snap Shots and "SHOTS THAT SCATTER, OR DO NOT ROLL TO HIT, CAN NEVER BE PRECISION SHOTS".

 

So it doesn't matter if every shot Telion makes is a precision shot.  The rule itself doesn't allow him to allocate wounds from weapons with the above properties.

 

So no, Codex does not overrule the BRB.  The Codex just over-rides the requirement to hit on a 6 to meet the condition to make a Precision Shot.  It does not say anything about allowing you to ignore the rest of the Precision Shot rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah, it's totally different to Precision Shots, which is why I said you'd have to use a Vindicare.

 

Precision Shot is a BRB rule and just your codex giving you Precision Shots on a 4+ or on every shot, isn't enough to overrule the Blast restriction.

 

Where as the 'always' Codex rule for a Vindicare is enough to overrule the 'never' restriction of the BRB rule.

[Raeven]

The problem with your theory is, there isn't a Never rule regarding Vindicare Assassins.

 

No rule, no over-ride, no Codex > BRB.

[Gentlemanloser]

PS never existed as a rule when the GK dex was written.

 

While Deadshot doesn't mention PS by name, it's mechanics are as if PS were 'always' on.  It allows you to do what PS does with every hit, not just those on a 6.

 

PS 'never' allows Blasts (as they scatter and don't roll to hit) to be allocated by the player.

 

Deadshot 'always' allows Blasts to be allocated by the player.

[stinkenheim]

Whilst mechanically it may be the same rule, the fact that it isn't RAW the same means that there is no conflict.

It's always the way with older codexes, every now and again something slips through the cracks.

Vindicares may allocate any wound they cause, models like tellion and illic can't as precision strike cannot be used by weapons that scatter.

[Raeven]

 

PS never existed as a rule when the GK dex was written.

 

While Deadshot doesn't mention PS by name, it's mechanics are as if PS were 'always' on.  It allows you to do what PS does with every hit, not just those on a 6.

 

PS 'never' allows Blasts (as they scatter and don't roll to hit) to be allocated by the player.

 

Deadshot 'always' allows Blasts to be allocated by the player.

So?  You are comparing two different systems as if they were the same thing just because they are similar.  There was no rule being over-written by Vindicare Assassin's Deadshot.  There was no "never" being contradicted.  That's the flaw in your argument.  With Telion's Precision Shot, the Always has no bearing on the Never in the Precision Shot rules.

 

Yes.  All shots by Telion are Precision Shots.  Until you read the Precision Shot rules which tell you that shots made under x, y, and z conditions can Never be allocated as Precision Shots.  No rules are being violated and there is no contradiction.

[Gentlemanloser]

Never said it worked with Telion...

 

It doesn't.

[Magpie]

Deadshot is not a Precision Shot. It is a special rule with it's own way of doing things so there can be no comparison between the two.

It's just like Jaws of the Wild Wolf not being a beam, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck but in a ruleset it's only a duck if it has the Duck special rule.

Yes in theory the wounds from a blast could be allocated using Deadshot but common sense needs to prevail in that this ability is not something that existed under the Vinidicare's current rules/point costs and represents a considerable increase in capability. I always use a LOT of caution when comparing 5th ed units to the 6th ed ruleset.

Why you would want to put your Vindicare in a building that has no line of sight, firing a barrage weapon that also cannot trace line of sight and does not use the Vindicare's ballistic skill is beyond me.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Yes in theory the wounds from a blast could be allocated using Deadshot
but common sense needs to prevail in that this ability is not something
that existed under the Vinidicare's current rules/point costs

 

It has always been an ability of the Vindicare Assassin.

 

He used to be able to shoot *into* CC.

[Magpie]

Did the Vindicare have the ability to fire a weapon other than the Exitus Rifle/Pistol at any point prior to now ?

[Seahawk]

 

Why you would want to put your Vindicare in a building that has no line of sight, firing a barrage weapon that also cannot trace line of sight and does not use the Vindicare's ballistic skill is beyond me.

Vindicare shoots at a tac/dev squad or similar. Wipes out every single special model, leaving only chumps (if that). Still nearly always hits, still wounds on 2+, slaughters power armor.

 

Kill 4-5 special models a turn instead of per game? Giggity.

[Magpie]

 

 

Why you would want to put your Vindicare in a building that has no line of sight, firing a barrage weapon that also cannot trace line of sight and does not use the Vindicare's ballistic skill is beyond me.

Vindicare shoots at a tac/dev squad or similar. Wipes out every single special model, leaving only chumps (if that). Still nearly always hits, still wounds on 2+, slaughters power armor.

 

Kill 4-5 special models a turn instead of per game? Giggity.

 

It's getting it to hit will be the trick, it will always scatter and honestly her talents are better used elsewhere. Stick some other tool on the krakstorms.

[Gentlemanloser]

Who cares if it always scatters when you've got a BS8 to reduce it by.

[Magpie]

You haven't got BS 8 to reduce it by , BS doesn't apply to indirect fire and the Krakstorm battery cannot trace a line of sight to any thing so it can only fire indirect.

[Gentlemanloser]

Good point.