Inviolate Armor and Rapier Batteries

[Moonstalker]

An interesting dilemma came up when I went to go and offer my advice on an army list.  Specifically, Iron Hands Rapier Batteries.  The relevant rules:

 

Main Rule Book, page 46, artillery

"If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least one gun remains.  Any Wounds that are caused are still allocated to the closest model first."

 

HH Book 2, page 230, Inviolate Armor

"All models with the Legiones Astartes (Iron Hands) special rule reduce the strength of all shooting attacks against them by -1."

 

HH Book 1, page 201, Rapier Battery Special Rules

"Legiones Astartes (Space Marine Crew)"

 

Does this mean that, while the gun still remains, a Rapier Battery does not benefit from Inviolate Armor?  Or, does the Rapier Battery only benefit from Inviolate Armor while the crew are the closest models/would be the first ones removed as casualties?  Do you think that the Rapier Battery would always benefit from Inviolate Armor?

 

I don't have a facebook account, but some guys here have mentioned that they sometimes ask the FW guys rules queries there.  Maybe this would be a good one to ask them.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I would say that it could only apply to the crew, not the gun. So they get the bonus if the gun is destroyed.

[MiR]

It was an advice for my List thank you again.

 

For us this was Ruled a little cheese i fell, dont know if its right, but i tell you.

 

If the Marine Model stand in Line of Fire as you shoot, then youre Strenght is reduced.

If the Cannon is the closest Model, then you hit with full Strenght.

 

Hope someone can this answer, will help me alot.

 

Also thank you kitwulfen for open this discussion.

[Kais Klip]

The rules state that when shooting at artillery, you use the artillery's toughness. Given that the space marine crew are Legiones Astartes (Iron Hands) means that the unit is Legiones Astartes (Iron Hands), thus all shooting attacks against the unit are at -1 strength.

 

What would make me doubt that reasoning would be the answer to "What happens if an Independant Character from another Legion joins another Legion unit, and is the foremost model to the shooting squad?" If the answer is he uses his own Legion rules, and not the unit's, then I wouldn't be so sure about my first paragraph. I'd still play it as if it was, though.

[Moonstalker]

The rules state that when shooting at artillery, you use the artillery's toughness. Given that the space marine crew are Legiones Astartes (Iron Hands) means that the unit is Legiones Astartes (Iron Hands), thus all shooting attacks against the unit are at -1 strength.

 

What would make me doubt that reasoning would be the answer to "What happens if an Independant Character from another Legion joins another Legion unit, and is the foremost model to the shooting squad?" If the answer is he uses his own Legion rules, and not the unit's, then I wouldn't be so sure about my first paragraph. I'd still play it as if it was, though.

 

Inviolate Armor, however, specifically states that shooting attacks at models with that rule reduce their strength by 1.  So, since you always use the gun's toughness, are you shooting at the gun model and thus not at a model with the Inviolate Armor special rule?

 

Also worth noting that the Legiones Astartes special rule does not have the same text as ATSKNF.  ATSKNF confers itself onto units so long as at least one model has it, while Legiones Astartes only refers to units having it.  Not "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..." (Main Rule Book, pg 33, ATSKNF)

[Kais Klip]

 

The rules state that when shooting at artillery, you use the artillery's toughness. Given that the space marine crew are Legiones Astartes (Iron Hands) means that the unit is Legiones Astartes (Iron Hands), thus all shooting attacks against the unit are at -1 strength.What would make me doubt that reasoning would be the answer to "What happens if an Independant Character from another Legion joins another Legion unit, and is the foremost model to the shooting squad?" If the answer is he uses his own Legion rules, and not the unit's, then I wouldn't be so sure about my first paragraph. I'd still play it as if it was, though.

 Inviolate Armor, however, specifically states that shooting attacks at models with that rule reduce their strength by 1.  So, since you always use the gun's toughness, are you shooting at the gun model and thus not at a model with the Inviolate Armor special rule? Also worth noting that the Legiones Astartes special rule does not have the same text as ATSKNF.  ATSKNF confers itself onto units so long as at least one model has it, while Legiones Astartes only refers to units having it.  Not "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..." (Main Rule Book, pg 33, ATSKNF)

My bad, read "models" as "unit"; kitwulfen is right, the artillery does not get Inviolate Armour nor it's effects, and since you are using its toughness... eeeh... aaah... I was typing faster than I was thinking. You know, since you are able to kill Iron Hand models with your shots, and we lost last edition's specifics of actually hitting arty of the crew... I'd say you are still at -1, lads.

[Sanct]

This rule question also gets extended to any unit with an iron hand in it.

Such as techmarine covenant with servo-automata (can be majority T5 but only the T4 techy has Legiones Astartes special rule) or any of the mechanicum units that get an astartes IC attached to them

[Kais Klip]

That touched my previous side question, what happens if you attach an Allied IC from another legion, with their own legion special rules, to a squad not of their legion. ie a Salamander Praetor joins an Iron Hands Line Squad, which then say, proceeds to get flamed.

[Moonstalker]

Alright guys, I got in touch with FW about this.  It's kind of strange.  I've played 40k for so long, and GW has always been near-silent about rules queries, except when issuing FAQs.  Having an official place to go when there is confusion is very refreshing.

 

Their first response:

 

"When shooting at an Artillery unit the toughness of the gun is always used, the gun does not benefit from the the Legion Astartes rule, the nearest model to the firing unit takes the wounds even if that model is not the gun."

 

This wasn't entirely clear to me, so I asked for more clarification and expanded the question to some of the rules queries that you guys brought up.

 

"Thank you for getting back to me.  However, I'm afraid I didn't quite understand your answer to my first question.  Do you mean that while the gun is still alive, Inviolate Armor will not apply to the unit?  I would also like to expand the question: how does Inviolate Armour apply to a unit consisting of a Techmarine and one or more Servo-Automata?  It's another mixed unit where one model has Legiones Astartes (Iron Hands) and thus Inviolate Armor, and other models do not.  Does the unit benefit from Inviolate Armor while the Techmarine is still alive?  Only when he is the closest model to the firing unit?  Only once the Servo-Automata die?

Carrying the question even further, what effect is there when an Iron Hands IC or Salamanders IC joins an allied squad of Sworn Brothers?  Do they confer the protection of Inviolate Armor/Promethean Gift to the squad?  Do they lose it's protection while in the squad?  Only if they somehow count as the majority model (a 3 wound IC with 2 1 wound models, or two ICs with one allied model)?  Only if they are the closest model?"

 

And FW's latest reply.

 

"Thank you for your reply. To be clear:

1. An artillery unit can never benefit from the Inviolate Armour whilst the gun is alive.
    
2. Inviolate Armour only applies to the model with the rule, not a unit he has joined or a retinue. This is worked out like a unit with varying saves. If the Techmarine is closest to the fiting unit roll each to-wound roll followed by his save one at a time until you either run out of hits or he dies. The unit NEVER gains the special rule.
    
3. Again, no, the character would never give the unit this special ability."

It's a very strict reading of the rules, and I think mixed units like these could really slow down gameplay if you have to roll each to-wound individually, followed by single saves.

 

Also, Kais, Iron hands/Salamanders are only Fellow Warriors, not Sworn Brothers.  So, IH/Sals cannot join into allied squads.  But I still phrased the question in a way to address both.  Worth noting that on page 185 of Betrayal, it says, "However, not even Sworn Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles, and rules that affect a particular force owing to its Legiones Astartes rule do not carry over to an allied force."

[Kais Klip]

Nice one buddy! I for one appreciate the effort, cheers for taking the initiative to paraphrase my question.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

It fits what I thought was logical. It may seem strict, but it will stop some of the monkey business that has been known to go on :)