Inquisitor, why are you not adding one?

[Cactus]

Does being part of the unit negate the fact that he is an ally? I don't think so.

[Gentlemanloser]

Part of the unit for all intents and purposes.

 

Is the unit an ally to itself?

[Spinsanity]

Isn't this a case of "Basic vs Advanced rules" ?

 

Basic IC rule sais the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Advanced Ally rules says that Battle Brothers cannot embark in allied transports.

 

?

[Lysere]

Isn't this a case of "Basic vs Advanced rules" ?

 

Basic IC rule sais the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Advanced Ally rules says that Battle Brothers cannot embark in allied transports.

 

?

 

The rules for Independent characters are themselves advanced rules as it is part of unit types. Basic Rules is everything before the Special Rules list. Also again part of the unit for all intents and purposes is not in conflict with the rules for allies and transports. Again you can't put your henchmen in a marine rhino but the Inquisitor is joined to a marine unit that can. He is part of their unit from then on.

 

Also haven't the Eldar done this before without issue? The whole attach DE character with 2+ invuln to an eldar squad in a vehicle. When they get out you'd just fortune them and let him tank for the squad.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to go back to an Inquisitor casting powers from firepoints - that's only for shooting attacks.

[Gentlemanloser]

Blessings don't require LoS, do they?

[Stickeh]

Page 39 BRB: 'While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.'

 

Page 112 BRB: '...note that not even battle brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles'

 

The phrase 'counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes' works both ways. For example, if the unit has counter attack (such as Grey Hunters) he would also gain counter attack as per the counter attack USR and following the rules for characters. In exactly the same way, as he is prohibited from embarking in an space wolf rhino, he passes this on to the unit, which also prohibits them from embarking. It does not remove the prohibition on allied transports (which is a stupid rule regardless), but passes it on.

 

 

 

I'd like to go back to an Inquisitor casting powers from firepoints - that's only for shooting attacks.

 

Yeah rulebook FAQ specifically states fire points can ONLY be used for witchfire powers, fire points can't be used to manifest powers that require line of sight. However as neither the page 68 BRB rules for blessings or the page 420 BRB rules for prescience state line of sight is required (just that it 'targets a single friendly unit within 12") I see no reason you can't cast Prescience inside a Chimera or Rhino. However if that wasn't what you were referring to ignore me.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

The phrase 'counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes' works both ways.

 

How do you reach that conclusion?

 

The unit doesn't count as part of the IC.

[Stickeh]

The part where it says 'all rules' instead of 'rules that apply only to the larger unit'.

[Gentlemanloser]

The rule is;

 

 

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes

 

The unit does not count as part of the IC for all rules purposes.

 

It's not a two way street.

 

Otherwise the unit could (for a quick example only) join another unit, using the IC rules.

[Stickeh]

Of course not because 'Independent Character' is a special rule, which is covered in the 'Special Rules' paragraph of the IC section on BRB page 39:

 

 

When an independent special character joins a unit it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

 

There's another paragraph that also states this ceases when an IC leaves the unit (not really relevant here).

[Oz of the North]

Dealing with casting prescience out of the transport, you are unable to do it, somewhere in the BRB faq, you can only cast buff psychic powers on the unit in the vehicle or the vehicle itself, no units near the vehicle.

[Gentlemanloser]

and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit

 

Why is the IC's ally restriction conferred upon the unit then?

 

 

 

Edit: With regards to;

 

 

Dealing with casting prescience out of the transport, you are unable to

do it, somewhere in the BRB faq, you can only cast buff psychic powers

on the unit in the vehicle or the vehicle itself, no units near the

vehicle.

 

 

All I can find is;

 

 

Q: Can Psykers use a Transport’s Fire Point(s) t o m anife st

powers that require line of sight whilst still embarked? (p78)

A: No. Note, however, that witchfire powers specifically allow

you to do so and are the one exception to this rule.

 

And as said above, Prescience doesn't need LoS

[Stickeh]

Because that restriction doesn't fall under 'Special Rules' (and hence is not subject to the clause) but under the restrictions placed upon all Battle Brothers.

 

EDIT: agreed on the prescience out of a transport thing, I can't find anything in the FAQ either

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Because that restriction doesn't fall under 'Special Rules' (and hence
is not subject to the clause) but under the restrictions placed upon all
Battle Brothers.

 

How can the IC remain a 'Battle Brother' Ally, when he's a part of the Squad for all rules purposes?

 

The Squad isn't and can't ally to itself.

[Stickeh]

I'm not sure what you're asking with the last post, if he lost his status as a battle brother then he wouldn't be able to join the unit in the first place?

 

A squad can't ally with itself because that's not how the ally rules work. If you meant 'can't join itself' then of course not, because that isn't conferred by being an ally but by being an Independent Character. Being an ally allows you to field the unit in the first place.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Page 67, under "Declare Target:"

 

 

 

"This means that a Psyker embarked on a Transport can only target himself, his vehicle, or another unit embarked on the same vehicle as the Psyker."

 

 

 

 

The only way around this is page 69, second paragraph under "Witchfire:"

 

 

 

 

"Note that, as witchfire is a Shooting attack,  a Psyker embarked on a vehicle can target an enemy outside that vehicle by using a Fire Point."

 

 

 

So no Prescience on a unit outside of a vehicle if the Psyker is inside the vehicle.  Ever.  Sorry.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm not sure what you're asking with the
last post, if he lost his status as a battle brother then he wouldn't be
able to join the unit in the first place?

 

A squad can't ally with itself because
that's not how the ally rules work. If you meant 'can't join itself'
then of course not, because that isn't conferred by being an ally but by
being an Independent Character. Being an ally allows you to field the
unit in the first place.

 

When the IC joins the squad for all rules purposes, "A squad can't ally with itself".  The IC is therefore no longer an 'Ally'.  The IC isn't a Battle Brother Ally, but a member of the Primary Detachments Squad itself.

 

So no Prescience on a unit outside of a vehicle if the Psyker is inside the vehicle.  Ever.  Sorry.

 

Huh, go figure. lol.

[Brother Casman]

When the IC joins the squad for all rules purposes, "A squad can't ally with itself". The IC is therefore no longer an 'Ally'. The IC isn't a Battle Brother Ally, but a member of the Primary Detachments Squad itself.

Hang on now, if your Inquisitor joins a Battle Brother Squad, and becomes part of the Primary Detachment, what does that do to your Inquisitor Detachment? If you've fielded one Inquisitor and a henchmen band, then by joining a squad of Space Marines, your Inquisitor detachment would no longer be a legal detachment, as it would no longer have an HQ.

 

The Inquisitor has to remain part of the Inquisitor Detachment for it to be a legal detachment, which means he's still an ally - so no, he can't hop in allied transports.

[Gentlemanloser]

Then he can't ever be considered part of a unit for all rules purposes.

 

As a unit can't ally to itself.

[Brother Casman]

So, you're thinking that "all" trumps "never" in this particular rules conflict, GL? (Asking out of curiosity).

 

I'm thinking more specific vs general: the Inquisitor is an independent character -> he can join squads, allied or otherwise -> in general, an attached IC can be transported in a vehicle, if there is room -> allied units are specifically forbidden. In my view, there is no conflict here.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's another problem of Advanced - Advanced conflicts.  And GW give no resolution proceedure for these.

 

It shouldn't be in question the Battle Brother 'units' can't use Allied Transports.

 

But ICs muddy the water significantly.

 

This is something GW needs to answer.

 

Thier whole Basic - Advanced - Codex process is too general.  It leads to the arguements that a Codex rule allowing you to Assault after disembarkation overrules the BRB restriction that you can't Assault the turn you enter form reserves.  As there's no General/Specific distinction.  You are given the permission to Assault after disembarkation, so if you disembark, you *can* assault, regardless of any other restticitons.  As you're given the permission to do so.

 

The resolution should be that specific trumps general.

 

You can *specifically* assault after disembarkation, overruling that specific restriction.  This does not allow you to avoid *other* specific restrictions, like the inabilty to assault the turn you enter form reserves.

 

If all this makes sense! ;)

[Dosjetka]

For now, I don't need an Inquisitor because:

 

- Mantis Warriors Chapter Tactic gives my Librarians access to Divination;

- I'm not sure that I need Stubborn for my units at the moment. Time and experience will tell though;

- Infiltrating/scouting units aren't used much around here and I'm currently not using Deep Striking units. If I do use them, I'll just get myself some Biker Scouts w/ locator beacon;

- Rad grenades are nice, but I already get a +1S bonus with Furious Charge (via the MW CT), so the -1T on the enemy isn't that necessary (though would be useful for shooting purposes, etc.);

(- The supplement is, from what I have heard/glimpsed, a failure fluff-wise. As the rules are only a fraction of what the Codex should be, I don't see myself purchasing the supplement any time soon.)

 

I think that's it, for now. If I think of other reasons, I'll be sure to share them here.

[Gentlemanloser]

85 points for an Inquisitor with 3 Plasma Cannon Servitors? ;)

[Brother Casman]

I agree, GL, the whole basic-advanced-codex thing should have been specific vs general. Part of me thinks that is what GW may have been aiming for, but worded it badly.

 

I also thought of a similar situation from the SM codex: ICs in terminator armour cannot ride in Rhinos. It's not exactly the same problem, but the same logic applies, I think. Terminator ICs are specifically forbidden from riding in rhinos because they're Bulky. Allied ICs are specifically forbidden from riding in primary detachment transports because they're allied. Neither of these restrictions prevent either IC from joining a squad, they just have to stay behind if the squad hops into a transport.