Using 3 tactical squads as a base for a list - loadout?

[Master Avoghai]

By multi-flamer you mean the squad with a techmarine in as well, or just the squad with the flamer/combi-flamer?

The squad AND the techmarine.

Techmarine with servo harness AND bolter flamer

Sgt with bolter flamer and squad with flamer.

It means 4 flamer templates the turn they arrive + the bolter shoots.

In addition to that, you can bolster a zone of terrain occupied by one of your support units.

[Major_Gilbear]

By multi-flamer you mean the squad with a techmarine in as well, or just the squad with the flamer/combi-flamer?

The squad AND the techmarine.

Techmarine with servo harness AND bolter flamer

Sgt with bolter flamer and squad with flamer.

It means 4 flamer templates the turn they arrive + the bolter shoots.

In addition to that, you can bolster a zone of terrain occupied by one of your support units.

...At this point, wouldn't you just be better off running a Company Veterans squad?

[Master Avoghai]

Could be... But

 

They cost more/marine

They're not troops (and no scenario can make them scoring like FA or HS)

They require an ELITE slot

They don't allow you to bolster defense (in the case you meant why not vet in lieu of tactical AND techmarine).

 

They're room for a vet (or command squad) with multi flamer but I think the kind of army the OP wanted is not of this kind. If you plan to leave 2 squads behind as a gunline it's better to use the 3rd one more aggressively. Multi flamer poded tactical is the best solution for that since the bolster defense allows also to enhance the gunline resilience.

[march10k]

Good morning all,

 

 

Isn't it a nice feeling to find out something is even better than we though! Out of interest, how large do you think that list would be you've thrown in there?

Let's see, roughly 550 for the four HQ, 500 for three tacticals, 220 for the devs, 220 for termies, 322 for bikes, comes right up to about 1800 points, leaving 50 points to buy weapons for the 12 bikes and 5 termies in an 1850 point list.  two flamers, two meltas, and an assault cannon?  Might have to adjust that a little based on a more precise points count, but I was right in the ballpark for my normal points level.  Maybe drop the plasma for flamer/fist in the Azzy  tactical squad?  Give them no excuse to sit and shoot...

[Master Avoghai]

And don't forget the inqui with servo skullz! :lol:

[FerociousBeast]

...

 

FB,

 

I'm curious...what challenges, besides finding the points, does including Azzy in a green army present?  Credit 30 points for a PFG and 10 points per power armored squad not upgraded with a veteran, and you've nearly amortized the cost of including him in lieu of the alternative.  He's not auto-include in a green army, but he's damned close to it!

 

Mostly opportunity cost and investment required to maximize his potential. RE: opportunity cost, if you're taking Azrael, you're not using his HQ slot for another option like Librarian, Ezekiel, or Belial, so you need to make sure he will have as much of an impact as one of those other options would. This means going Greenwing to maximize rites of battle and getting him into combat to maximize his close combat prowess--which is not much better than that of Belial. These are not problems, they're just things to keep in mind.

 

RE: additional investment, Azrael can't footslog if you want to maximize his investment. So that really means getting him a Land Raider (maybe drop pod) and a bodyguard, and there's a temptation to make that bodyguard one of the pricier options.

 

I'm not saying Azrael's bad, I'm just saying he's not the right choice for every list. Ravenwing? No. Deathwing? No. Greenwing? Sometimes. Mixedwing? Sometimes.

[march10k]

I could be wrong, but if the topic is "three tactical squads," then the OP is probably looking to play greenwing. 

 

I'm not against putting Azzy in a land raider, but it's hardly necessary. 

 

I think Azzy in a greenwing list is pretty much always "worth it."  Slap him into the obligatory lascannon dev squad, and you're trading off twinlinking for assault deterrence and additional (can spread out, all models are protected) shooting protection.  Alternatively, throw him in a flamer/melee tactical squad, and have him tank shooting as they maneuver to an objective.   As long as he's giving LD10 to enough squads and you're making use of a wisely-chosen warlord trait, he doesn't actually have to kill 900 points worth of enemy to be worth taking. 

 

Because you're replacing green units with black or white, the bar is higher for him to be "worth it" in mixed wing.  The black/white units have to be doing something that green units can't, and their scoring status has to be critical, otherwise you will have been better off with just a green list.  In spite of the fact that I primarily play deathwing, I think in terms of mixed-wing, Azzy works best with green/black.  Rites of Battle for the green element and scoring for the black.  Fast T5 scoring units are a great addition to an infantry-based list!  He's enough of an assault deterrent to provide counter-assault for the green element, too, while giving a 4++ to a devastator squad.  I don't see any real advantage to taking him over Belial if you want scoring termies.  In a green-white list, Belial's scatter-free DWA is better than sliced bread, and black/white has the problem of Azzy being on foot, so you're better off taking Sammy or Bels, and only splashing the nonscoring color (like black knights in a deathwing list)

[shabbadoo]

You just made Azrael the most expensive 4++ save unit upgrade ever.   No way should anybody have Azrael baby-sit Devastators and suck his thumb.  Devastators should be deployed in cover to begin with, which will usually give them a FREE 4+ cover save.  In Greenwing, Azrael should be deployed with a close combat oriented squad, meaning Company Veterans.  With him by their side, they all have a 4++ save, don't need any sort of shields, and so points dedicated to them can be spent on weapons. I would limit  the spending to about 15 points per model (each gets either a combi-weapon and meltabombs, a plasma pistol, or a power weapon), excepting two that I would give a powerfist/thunder hammer.  Put in a Land Raider, and drive it up close that they can hit stuff with their swords, or go with a Drop Pod (in which case I might favor more combi-weapons so as to bathe the enemy in a rapid fire plasma bath).

[march10k]

 

You just made Azrael the most expensive 4++ save unit upgrade ever.

 And you not only ignored the close combat option I offered, you made a lot of shooty models in the most expensive underperforming terminator alternative ever, with the intent of throwing them into assault.  What, exactly, does Azzy and some veterans in a land raider do that terminators don't do better for cheaper?  Not only that, but you're implying that Azzy is nothing but a 4+ save.  He's also rites of battle, unlocked bikes and termies, choice of trait, and an above average (not stellar) melee fighter.  The deepstriking flamer idea is even worse.  You're going to blow the better part of a land raider's cost on 4+ saves for a bunch of flamers?  Why are you so concerned with giving them protection against plasma that you'd about double their cost while putting your warlord in a position where he's guaranteed to get torrented to death on arrival?  

 

Azzy being worthwhile depends on a combination of army-level benefits he confers.  If he's not handing out rites of battle to an army that's actually using the warlord trait you gave him while making bikes, termies, or both scoring AND giving a critical unit a 4+ invulnerable save, he's not worth the points.  A unit inside a land raider probably can do without the 4++.  What, are you hunting terminators with veterans or something?  And a drop pod only tempts you to put him in rapid-fire range of half of the enemy army...early.  Azzy is not an offensive melee choice.  He's a commander, not a leader.

 

 If you throw him forward, do it as part of a general advance, not with a single squad in a land raider, they'll outpace the rest of the army and find themselves outnumbered and outgunned after they, whoop de doo, maul one enemy squad.  And let me say for a third time that parachuting him alone and unafraid behind enemy lines is a great way to get him killed before he ever swings that sword.  If you're advancing with Azzy, do it with at least three units that are staying close enough together to support each other.  That means on foot or ~shudder~ in rhinos.

[shabbadoo]

Where did I mention flamers? I mentioned "combi-weapons" and "rapid fire plasma bath". Not a hard connection to make here as to which type of combi-weapons I mean, although dropping 9 flamer templates on an an enemy unit will result in a butt-hurt enemy unit when you tell them "Roll 20-something armor saves, and Azrael punks two of yer dudez with plasma too for good measure!" So you take either plasma (or flamers even) if you Drop Pod them in because Azrael will actually have the perfect opportunity to fire his own combi-plasma (as he cannot Assault that turn), which he will otherwise probably never do because:

* Rapid firing his combi-plasma prevents Assault for any squad he is joined to.

* When is he otherwise going to be in range to use it (to rapid fire that is, which is the only decent reason to fire his combi-plasma), and actually want to use it instead of he and his accompanying squad charging?

* It is a way to make use of his nicely destructive, yet counter-productive wargear (GW and its moronic character building at its finest, let alone them putting an Assult combi-plasma in the codex to add insult to injury).

Putting Azrael in a squad like this isn't somehow a bad thing either, because:

* It doesn't preclude him from using the Rites of Battle rule.

* It doesn't preclude him from being able to choose (and use) a Warlord Trait.

* Ravenwing Attack Squadrons and Deathwing Terminator Squads units are still Troops if you do this, so there is no point in even mentioning this as being a point, as it isn't one whatsoever.

Now, all that being being said, you have the right of in in your Mixed-wing examples regarding Belial being a better HQ choice in certain army builds. Having Azrael join a flamer Tactical Squad and somehow "tank hunt" is rather daft though, as only he can potentially do anything to a vehicle from range (and only once). Also, A unit limited to Str 6 in close combat, with limited attacks, is not the most effective of tank hunters- a unit with a meltagun and a power fist is much more effective (see Option #3). That's the advancing Tactical unit you join Azrael to, if any.

I would use Azrael as a rear echelon commander, but only in the one instance that you also mention- in a Greenwing Gunline/Horde. All Greenwing (which I will include Scouts in); no Deathwing, no Ravenwing. This is really the only time that Rites of Battle is worth anything more than a passing benefit, as your entire army will gain the benefit of it rather than just a few units (because, with Azrael in an army, I do think most people will instead choose to take advantage being able to field a Multiwing force without needing both Belial and Sammael to do so). And so we choose to not use Azrael's special "These units are Troops" aspect and go with an all Greenwing force.

In such a force, I would very much NOT join Azrael to a Devastator Squad though, mainly as he makes them an even BIGGER target. Five ablative wounds, and then the enemy starts killing stuff that really maters, including potentially a character. Concentrate fire HERE, if you would please! No, I'll put Azrael in another unit altogether, and make sure that my Devastators are given deployment priority with regards to the terrain. Where Azrael goes is where I think the enemy will most want to get to grips with my force in close combat, but even then I still wouldn't put him in a unit that is already a bigger target than others around it. An Assault squad is a good unit to join Azrael to, mainly because so many people see it as a sub-par unit (especially if they read the intarwebz ). If the enemy gets close enough, Azrael stays in the unit and Assaults; if not, the Assault Squad breaks off from him and charges on its own, while Azrael then moves to join another nearby unit, assaults another enemy unit, and/or shoots an enemy unit. any combination of those really, depending on where your units are and what they are doing/not doing.

And I would choose the Courage of the Lion Warlord Trait, which ought to result in any non-Fearless units within 12" of Azrael not ever running. Whoever falls outside of this 24" bubble, well, perhaps they get a nice cheap Librarian or Chaplain to hang out with them; maybe alongside a Command Squad with a company Standard which gives its own 24" re-roll Morale/Pinning checks bubble on that Stubborn Ld 10. An all Drop Pod force of 6 Tactical Squads and 3 Company Veterans Squads (any 10-man units of which can Combat Squad upon deploying from the Drop Pods) can make for some fun too (don't forget the locator beacons on some of your Turn 1 Drop Pods!!!). I only have three Drop Pods at this point, but I know somebody with 7 more, so I think I will have to try it out when I get 10 more Company Veterans built (10 Sternguard veterans minis, with a whole bunch of magnetized arms for options ).

Also, it is safer to assume that a player will not send a unit forwards or into the enemy's backfield unsupported, and instead go with "This super awesome unit I just described will then proceed to kill the enemy all by itself, while the remainder of your army sits back, raises their glasses, and toasts the victory! HUZZAH!!"

[march10k]

Where did I mention flamers? whoops! I mentioned "combi-weapons" and "rapid fire plasma bath". Not a hard connection to make here as to which type of combi-weapons I mean, although dropping 9 flamer templates on an an enemy unit will result in a butt-hurt enemy unit when you tell them "Roll 20-something armor saves, and Azrael punks two of yer dudez with plasma too for good measure!" So you take either plasma (or flamers even) if you Drop Pod them in because Azrael will actually have the perfect opportunity to fire his own combi-plasma (as he cannot Assault that turn), which he will otherwise probably never do because:

* Rapid firing his combi-plasma prevents Assault for any squad he is joined to.

* When is he otherwise going to be in range to use it (to rapid fire that is, which is the only decent reason to fire his combi-plasma), and actually want to use it instead of he and his accompanying squad charging?

* It is a way to make use of his nicely destructive, yet counter-productive wargear (GW and its moronic character building at its finest, let alone them putting an Assult combi-plasma in the codex to add insult to injury).

Putting Azrael in a squad like this isn't somehow a bad thing either, because:

* It doesn't preclude him from using the Rites of Battle rule. except, as already mentioned, he'll instantly be torrented to death, at which point RoB is gone.

* It doesn't preclude him from being able to choose (and use) a Warlord Trait.

* Ravenwing Attack Squadrons and Deathwing Terminator Squads units are still Troops if you do this, so there is no point in even mentioning this as being a point, as it isn't one whatsoever.

Now, all that being being said, you have the right of in in your Mixed-wing examples regarding Belial being a better HQ choice in certain army builds. Having Azrael join a flamer Tactical Squad and somehow "tank hunt" I said "tank shooting," not tank hunt, lol...it means put himself in front, let the non-AP2 shooting bounce off, and LoS anything AP2 is rather daft though, as only he can potentially do anything to a vehicle from range (and only once). Also, A unit limited to Str 6 in close combat, with limited attacks, is not the most effective of tank hunters- a unit with a meltagun and a power fist is much more effective (see Option #3). That's the advancing Tactical unit you join Azrael to, if any.

I would use Azrael as a rear echelon commander, but only in the one instance that you also mention- in a Greenwing Gunline/Horde. All Greenwing (which I will include Scouts in); no Deathwing, no Ravenwing. This is really the only time that Rites of Battle is worth anything more than a passing benefit, as your entire army will gain the benefit of it rather than just a few units a few units? You can fit three tacticals, one dev, two squadrons, and one set of termies in 1850 with Azzy...four times RoB is hardly a "passing benefit...and you could make it 5x if you drop the termies for more tacticals, but I wouldn't (because, with Azrael in an army, I do think most people will instead choose to take advantage being able to field a Multiwing force without needing both Belial and Sammael to do so). And so we choose to not use Azrael's special "These units are Troops" aspect and go with an all Greenwing force.

In such a force, I would very much NOT join Azrael to a Devastator Squad though, mainly as he makes them an even BIGGER target. Fair enough. It's a reasonable position to take. Five ablative wounds, and then the enemy starts killing stuff that really maters, including potentially a character. Concentrate fire HERE, if you would please! No, I'll put Azrael in another unit altogether, and make sure that my Devastators are given deployment priority with regards to the terrain. Where Azrael goes is where I think the enemy will most want to get to grips with my force in close combat, but even then I still wouldn't put him in a unit that is already a bigger target than others around it. An Assault squad is a good unit to join Azrael to, mainly because so many people see it as a sub-par unit (especially if they read the intarwebz ). If the enemy gets close enough, Azrael stays in the unit and Assaults; if not, the Assault Squad breaks off from him and charges on its own, while Azrael then moves to join another nearby unit, assaults another enemy unit, and/or shoots an enemy unit. any combination of those really, depending on where your units are and what they are doing/not doing. An assault squad? I wouldn't be taking one as counter-assault, they'd be moving fast to unleash double flamers or charge a shooty unit. In the situation you paint, Azzy would be joining a tactical squad from the start, one that maneuvers instead of objective camping.

Also, it is safer to assume that a player will not send a unit forwards or into the enemy's backfield unsupported, and instead go with "This super awesome unit I just described will then proceed to kill the enemy all by itself, while the remainder of your army sits back, raises their glasses, and toasts the victory! HUZZAH!!"

If your enemy isn't pressed with more important things to shoot than your podded Azzy, then Azzy's not properly supported...but you've set up a false dichotomy. You suggest that as long as the rest of the army is actively engaged in the fight instead of spectating, then podding Azzy into the heart of the enemy line isn't going to get him torrented to death. It is. That 4++ is meaningless against small arms fire, but crushing in melee. 99% of the time, your opponent is going to drop everything and focus on killing Azzy, or at least gutting his squad, on the turn he arrives.

[Cactus]

As an aside, Azrael's Rites of Battle affects all models from Codex: Dark Angels not just his detachment. In a large game where you're using the double force org chart you can pack Deathwing and Ravenwing squads as troops in one chart with Azrael and still confer his leadership benefit to tactical squads in the other.

[shabbadoo]

 If your enemy isn't pressed with more important things to shoot than your podded Azzy, then Azzy's not properly supported...but you've set up a false dichotomy.  You suggest that as long as the rest of the army is actively engaged in the fight instead of spectating, then podding Azzy into the heart of the enemy line isn't going to get him torrented to death.  It is.  That 4++ is meaningless against small arms fire, but crushing in melee.  99% of the time, your opponent is going to drop everything and focus on killing Azzy, or at least gutting his squad, on the turn he arrives. 

I set up no dichotomy- you assume it, again. You don't Drop Pod Azrael alone into the enemy lines, but make sure he is accompanied by other units.  And you don't have to deploy him in THE spot where the enemy will be able to shoot everything at him.  There is this thing called a flank attack, and attacking it in this manner is a good idea.  Drop Pods can be used to block some LOS, terrain blocks some/all LOS, and enemy units of the vehicular variety can also block some/all LOS.  A flank attack usually makes really good use of all of these.  So, regarding assumptions again, it is better to choose to assume that somebody will NOT deploy in the most idiotic manner possible, let alone also take into account that Azrael's unit likely not get torrented to death because the DA forces will very likely have just done this to the enemy...

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Gkxrvtze9SA/S36o6zcsK6I/AAAAAAAAAvs/VmtcRcGhY_E/s320/Knockout+Punch.jpg

 

...and the enemy may very well not be feeling all that capable of returning the favor. ;)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

As requested per OP, the thread was re-opened since he has demonstrated interest for it to remain open. Still I recommend that the diffference of opinions present should be toned doned a few notches into a more amiable fashion. This isn't a debate and no one ever wins debates on the internet. There are only different opinions and differnet metagames so everyone will have right in his own situation.

[segmentumobscurusstudios]

Hey Guys,

 

Thank you Chaplain Lucifer for re-opening the thread. I'd not had a chance to log on over the weekend.

 

I know that the title is tactical squads but I plan on running other things and one of them may be azrael and maybe even devestator squads. As such I found the discourse and the differing manner of use of both units interesting and of use.

 

March - there was a rough 1850 list you mentioned a few posts back.....any idea how to water it down to 1500 and still be functional?

 

Dan

[Cactus]

March - there was a rough 1850 list you mentioned a few posts back.....any idea how to water it down to 1500 and still be functional?

 

That very question is being debated in the army lists forum, here.

[segmentumobscurusstudios]

 

March - there was a rough 1850 list you mentioned a few posts back.....any idea how to water it down to 1500 and still be functional?

That very question is being debated in the army lists forum, here.

Thanks, but thats not the one I meant....there was one he came up with in this thread earlier on.

[Master Avoghai]

Do you mean the multi PFG army or do you mean mine? :

Depends if you plan to field standard of devastation or not. To me, plasma guns and plasma cannon are good weapons to complement the volley of bolts because it's good to saturate heavy armoured units but plasma weapons helps to kill the remaining 2models after the smoke dissipate...

I'm also fan of playing a squad in pod with flamer sgt with bolter flamer and a techmarine with harness and bolter flamer. It gives 4 flamer templates the turn they arrive and a scoring unit in the enemy's lines.

 

I've recently made a "combat company" list WITHOUT the dakka pole. The goal was to maximize the number of model and get a polyvalent force.

 

Here's the list :

 

 

 

Libby level1 infravisor PFG

Tech harness and bolter flamer (in drop pod with tactical)

 

3x 10 tactical PG/PC

1x 8 tactical (flamer/bolter flamer) in drop pod with tech

 

2x 8 assault 2 flamers/ PW + melta bomb vet sgt

5 RWBK one RWGL hunt master with melta bomb

 

2xWW

1x8 devy with 4 LC

 

72 models 1751pts

I recommend making the poded squad 6 man strong in order to play the devy 10 man strong. This would allow you to split them if necessary.

[segmentumobscurusstudios]

 

Do you mean the multi PFG army or do you mean mine? :

Depends if you plan to field standard of devastation or not. To me, plasma guns and plasma cannon are good weapons to complement the volley of bolts because it's good to saturate heavy armoured units but plasma weapons helps to kill the remaining 2models after the smoke dissipate...

I'm also fan of playing a squad in pod with flamer sgt with bolter flamer and a techmarine with harness and bolter flamer. It gives 4 flamer templates the turn they arrive and a scoring unit in the enemy's lines.

 

I've recently made a "combat company" list WITHOUT the dakka pole. The goal was to maximize the number of model and get a polyvalent force.

 

Here's the list :

 

 

Libby level1 infravisor PFG

Tech harness and bolter flamer (in drop pod with tactical)

 

3x 10 tactical PG/PC

1x 8 tactical (flamer/bolter flamer) in drop pod with tech

 

2x 8 assault 2 flamers/ PW + melta bomb vet sgt

5 RWBK one RWGL hunt master with melta bomb

 

2xWW

1x8 devy with 4 LC

 

72 models 1751pts

I recommend making the poded squad 6 man strong in order to play the devy 10 man strong. This would allow you to split them if necessary.

The multi PFG list, though thinking about it if you had any suggestions and idea's on how to trim your list down to 1500 that would also be appreciated.

[Master Avoghai]

Simple :

Drop a tactical squad, one assault marine per squad and one RWBK.

 

Libby level1 infravisor PFG

Tech harness and bolter flamer (in drop pod with tactical)

 

2 x 10 tactical PG/PC

1x 8 tactical (flamer/bolter flamer) in drop pod with tech

 

2x 6 assault 2 flamers/ PW + melta bomb vet sgt

4 RWBK one RWGL hunt master with melta bomb

 

2xWW

1x10 devastator with 4 LC

 

58 models 1494

[SvenONE]

Woof. Lot to catch up on I missed over the weekend.

 

To the OPs point. I've done a 3 tac based GW list a few times (I think my opponents were Tau, GK, BA, Necrons)

• Ezekiel
• Librarian (force axe/pfg)
• Command Squad (banner/apoth/stormbolters)
• 3 10-man Tac Squads (PG/PC x 2, PG/ML)
• 1 RW Attack Squad (Meltagunners - MMAB and Typhoon Speeder)
• 2 Devastators (4xLC, 4xPC)
• LRC

With wargear options I think I made all the sarges vets and gave power swords, it's about 1850. It's obviously not a tau list but there was a lot of shooting happening. This list was the culmination of me building out my DA army over the months it came out. I went GW first until I made the switch to the RW heavy lists I run now. I want to say I won all my games but they were hardly tabling and I know one of them was a Big Guns in which a lone sarge from one of my dev squads was able to claim an objective to make the difference. I like this list because it uses DA specific rules that SM can't recreate while being a little fluffy. Functionally, it's also a nice balance between redundancy and model count.

 

I felt my 3 tac list didn't start to work at lower level points because it just wasn't able to be well rounded enough. The LRC and RWAS were much needed additions as they created immediate threats for my opponents whereas most of the time it's my command squad being targeted first. I don't LIKE giving them stormbolters, but I felt I needed to in some cases to defend themselves moving and then basically being unable to shoot for anything beyond 12" is really frustrating for a squad that's basically about to get charged. Also, that 3rd PG/ML tac squad will sometimes combat squad or just float out of range of the banner to protect any enemies who might show up via deep strike or outflank.

 

The game I KNOW I lost and in spectacular fashion was a BA list with Mephiston in a Stormraven, at least 2 full assault troops with SPs, THREE Furiousos in dreadnoughts (lawnmowers), and some other various odds and ends. But I wasn't using the land raider at the time.

 

As for the Azrael discussion:

I tried Azrael once in this list by ditching both ezekiel and the other libby (obviously). I think I lost on a linebreaker/fb (missing a shot with a MMAB on a vehicle turn 1 is the worst!!!). But I do remember lamenting how much I missed the Pysker Powers. I get divination on both and then psychic shriek on Ezekiel if I get crap powers (1,2,4).

 

The debate I've seen develop here about him has a pretty common theme and that's his own cost, the cost to make him live longer (the squad he sits with), and the cost of the army that he makes troops (an already expensive endeavor). On paper he always seems great, but then when I actually sit and think about where I can use him, and what for, I'd rather just take a stock librarian or make a sergeant a veteran. He's got some neat rules, but I don't think I've ever played a game where I wasn't fielding him and said "man, I wish I had [insert any of his rules] right now".

 

Personally my only view of using him, is sticking him in a drop pod full of veterans and special weapons and just going all out until something stops him. Otherwise he's a 200+ point statue. But that's an entire story for another time (cough cough wink wink, someone make an Azzie thread). I think it's kinda crummy that he's probably the most powerful Chapter Master except maybe Calgar, after all he's controlling all descendants of DA, and he's just in a weird spot between a guy who hands out perks, and a guy who can sort of hit people.

[march10k]

March - there was a rough 1850 list you mentioned a few posts back.....any idea how to water it down to 1500 and still be functional?

 

Dan

 

 

Good morning all,

 

 

Isn't it a nice feeling to find out something is even better than we though! Out of interest, how large do you think that list would be you've thrown in there?

Let's see, roughly 550 for the four HQ, 500 for three tacticals, 220 for the devs, 220 for termies, 322 for bikes, comes right up to about 1800 points, leaving 50 points to buy weapons for the 12 bikes and 5 termies in an 1850 point list.  two flamers, two meltas, and an assault cannon?  Might have to adjust that a little based on a more precise points count, but I was right in the ballpark for my normal points level.  Maybe drop the plasma for flamer/fist in the Azzy  tactical squad?  Give them no excuse to sit and shoot...

 

This one?  Wasn't really a formal list, just the rough outlines of one, but let's see.  I'd actually hesitate to play Azzy at 1500...it's 1/6 fewer points, but his cost stays the same.  I prefer to scale my HQ spending with the size of the game.  But...dropping each squadron to 3 bikes and dropping one tactical squad gets you 332 points cut, leaving you well within striking distance of 1500.

[segmentumobscurusstudios]

 

March - there was a rough 1850 list you mentioned a few posts back.....any idea how to water it down to 1500 and still be functional?

 

Dan

 

> 

Good morning all,

 

 

Isn't it a nice feeling to find out something is even better than we though! Out of interest, how large do you think that list would be you've thrown in there?

Let's see, roughly 550 for the four HQ, 500 for three tacticals, 220 for the devs, 220 for termies, 322 for bikes, comes right up to about 1800 points, leaving 50 points to buy weapons for the 12 bikes and 5 termies in an 1850 point list.  two flamers, two meltas, and an assault cannon?  Might have to adjust that a little based on a more precise points count, but I was right in the ballpark for my normal points level.  Maybe drop the plasma for flamer/fist in the Azzy  tactical squad?  Give them no excuse to sit and shoot...

 

This one?  Wasn't really a formal list, just the rough outlines of one, but let's see.  I'd actually hesitate to play Azzy at 1500...it's 1/6 fewer points, but his cost stays the same.  I prefer to scale my HQ spending with the size of the game.  But...dropping each squadron to 3 bikes and dropping one tactical squad gets you 332 points cut, leaving you well within striking distance of 1500.

 

Thats the one, thanks March10k. Between this thread and the now opened Azrael thread I've got a lot of thinking to do. I'm wondering how viable dropping the terminators from the list above and adding in vets as an escort for azzy or even a command squad with dakka banner might help? I think the crippler for the list is dropping from 3 tactical squads down to 2.

 

Dan

[march10k]

Well...dropping one of three tacticals reduces you from 6 scoring units to 5, it's not the end of the world.  When the whole freaking list, except for the devastators, is scoring, scaling the points down is going to cost you scoring units!  To answer the other question, though...dropping the terminators to get vets or a command squad means you're dropping yet another scoring unit.  I don't know about four scoring units when two of them consist of three bikes.  I think you're better off with Azzy joining a flamer/fist tactical squad...and, to be honest, 1500 points is way too low for spending 550 points on HQ, no matter how useful they are!  I probably wouldn't even take 550 points of HQ in 1850 in any competitive setting.

[segmentumobscurusstudios]

Well...dropping one of three tacticals reduces you from 6 scoring units to 5, it's not the end of the world.  When the whole freaking list, except for the devastators, is scoring, scaling the points down is going to cost you scoring units!  To answer the other question, though...dropping the terminators to get vets or a command squad means you're dropping yet another scoring unit.  I don't know about four scoring units when two of them consist of three bikes.  I think you're better off with Azzy joining a flamer/fist tactical squad...and, to be honest, 1500 points is way too low for spending 550 points on HQ, no matter how useful they are!  I probably wouldn't even take 550 points of HQ in 1850 in any competitive setting.

 

Thats a good point about the scoring units March10k, I'd completely forgotten that Azrael allows bikes and terminators to become scoring/troops. 

 

I guess having the bikes zooming off with the ravenwing would mean that my PFG coverage wouldn't need to be so large and that I could perhaps get away with just the 2 of them which would save some points for elsewehere, maybe an Aegis line to help shelter the Dev's