How much would not having Horus hurt the Traitor`s cause?

[tiberium40k]

Assuming Horus for whatever reason remained loyal (ex. Erebus tripping on a badly hammered nail and breaking his neck on a flight of stairs, etc.) and the other traitor Primarchs still became traitors, how much would not having Horus hamper the Heresy?

 

Aside from the isse of who would lead the Heresy without Horus (assuming someone among the Traitors could take that perticular mantle, like Fulgrim), for starters the traitors have lost IIRC some 50-80k Marines of the Sons of Horus. 

 

Then there`s the fact they couldn`t tamper with the supply chains of the Legions and requisition ships right before the Heresy.

 

And of course the fact that by having the Emperor and the Warmaster on the same side many in the Imperium who supported Horus just because of his reported awesomness wouldn`t turn Traitor, which takes a lot of planets and Imperial Army units away from the Traitor`s cause.

 

What else?

[daveNYC]

What's the plan, having Lorgar head things?  You'd still have Kor Pharon stinking up the joint, and I assume you'd have Lorgar getting stupid upon realizing the existence of the warp powers, but what's the play for taking it galaxy wide?

 

If Horus doesn't fall, then Prospero, as written, never happens. 

[Mahoo]

That would also mean that the Blood Angels wouldn't get sent to that crazy system and the Ultramarines were never ordered to muster at Calth. The thousand sons wouldn't turn traitor and the wolves wouldn't be predisposed. The traitors wouldn't stand a chance with an additional 4 full legions and their Primarchs all ready to retailiate. It could also be argued that the Alpha legion wouldn't need to turn either.

[Lucien Eilam]

Nobody but Horus could have bound them together. Several Primarchs resented his position as Warmaster, but the Traitor Primarchs seem to barely tolerate each other. There's little sense of camaraderie like there was between Fulgrim and Ferrus.

 

The Word Bearers, Night Lords and World Eaters may well have gone renegade separately over the years and wound up joining the deleted legions, but the grand, unified Heresy wouldn't happen at all.

[awfulawful]

And calling the whole affair The Horus Heresy wouldn't have made any sense. ;)

[DuskRaider]

Without Horus, Primarchs such as Fulgrim and Mortarion would never have turned on the Imperium. Alpha Legion would have never been approached by the Cabal and thus would have remained loyal. Magnus may still have been sanctioned, but it would most likely have turned into his detainment and the Emperor personally dealing with him. Curze's withdrawl from the Imperium actually happened Pre-Heresy, Perturabo still would have destroyed his homeworld which probably would have sent him rogue anyhow, and Angron would join up with absolutely anyone in order to put the screws to the Emperor. Any Heresy scenario not led by Horus would have ultimately failed, and probably while still on the ground level.

[Kais Klip]

Without Horus, Primarchs such as Fulgrim and Mortarion would never have turned on the Imperium. Alpha Legion would have never been approached by the Cabal and thus would have remained loyal. Magnus may still have been sanctioned, but it would most likely have turned into his detainment and the Emperor personally dealing with him. Curze's withdrawl from the Imperium actually happened Pre-Heresy, Perturabo still would have destroyed his homeworld which probably would have sent him rogue anyhow, and Angron would join up with absolutely anyone in order to put the screws to the Emperor. Any Heresy scenario not led by Horus would have ultimately failed, and probably while still on the ground level.

That pretty much covers it. At best, think Angron's Nuceria rebellion on a galaxy wide scale.

[daveNYC]

Actually, Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children might have gone right off the rails anyway.  Horus had very little with their fall to Slaanesh.

[Conn Eremon]

Primarchs like Fulgrim, Mortarion, Angron, Magnus, Curze and Lorgar would have fallen anyways. The Warmaster tied them together, led them as a cohesive force, but he wasn't the thing that got them to betray in the first place. Only Perturabo and Alpharius could say that.

[daveNYC]

Why would Magnus or Mortarion have fallen?  Without the impetus to try and talk Horus down and then later warn the Emperor, there'd have been no reason for really anything to happen with Magnus, Prospero or the Thousand Sons.  I mean sure they were breaking the Edict of Nikea before they even broke orbit above that same planet, but they were all just hanging out on Prospero.  Not exactly adding a lot of value to the Great Crusade, but not exactly getting busy falling to the Dark Gods or raising concerns on Terra either.

 

And Mortarion wasn't exactly a fan of the Emperor, but he also wasn't like Angron (who blamed him, correctly, for the deaths of his buddies) or Curze (who had serious mental health issues).  Mortarion was anti-psyker and pretty on-board with the Crusade's bit about freeing humans from xenos overlords.  He might not have liked other elements, but that's not exactly the same as saying he'd throw down against the rest of the human empire, especially if the guys on his side were Kinky, Angry, Crazy, and Lorgar.

[Conn Eremon]

There would have been no Burning of Prospero, but Tzeentch still had the Legion's fate well within his pocket. It would have just happened differently, but it would happen period.

 

Same for Mortarion. He joins Horus' cause not just because of Horus but because of deep-seated resentment towards the Emperor and the Imperium's overly luxurious treatment of psykers, in his eyes. Just because Horus is out of the picture doesn't mean the rest just disappears. You also have Nurgle's heavy-handed tactics, which could occur regardless of Horus just like with Fulgrum and the Laer sword.

 

Perturabo also has his own resentments and bitterness, but, unlike Morty, Horus was integral to getting him to take that final step into traitorhood.

[DuskRaider]

I think Mortarion would have remained loyal if not pushed over the edge by Horus. It's even stated that both he and Fulgrim first resisted, but Horus was able to play to their weaknesses. Mortarion's whole schtick is 'Survive of the Fittest'... he knows he wouldn't last long against the Imperium, but in The Warmaster he saw the potential for a shift in power.

[Wade Garrett]

Magnus still falls because he's turned his whole Legion into Tzeencht's sock puppets to ward off the Flesh Change.

 

Alpharius still falls because c'mon. You think the Cabal is the only faction that can cook up a few "Oooooh! Spoooky bad future! You have to turn to Chaos to prevent it!" visions?

 

If the Heresy is shaped by Primarchs like Alpharius and Curze (who, after all, held the Lion to a stalemate for a year at Thramas) then you'd have a very different game, with terrorism, guerilla war, and subterfuge that could last centuries instead of Horus's "Big knockout punch at Terra to settle everything in one battle".

 

I think Dorn discusses such a possibility in the "Lightning Tower" short story but dismisses it because he knows Horus and what Lupercal will do.

(Just ignore that Isstvan and the Heresy in general suggests Dorn probably didn't know Horus half as well as he thought.)

[daveNYC]

Eh, Chaos tried that exact style of argument on Lorgar, but Alpharius and Omegon are probably less likely to fall for a story told by someone with such an unfortunate ratio of fangs to jaw size.

 

I also dislike this belief that Magus was in some category of auto-fall due to his past dealings.  It sucks the tragedy out of the whole thing between the Wolves and the Sons if Magnus was always going to turn evil.  Not to mention that it allows people to avoid making actual arguments and instead lets them just say "Well, they were in tight with Tzeentch, so something or other would have happened."

 

It also ignores the importance of Free Will in Tzeentchian plans.  Name one point in A Thousand Sons where Tzeentch or one of his daemons actually makes someone do something.  Prospero Burns has one instance (potentially) where Kasper gets a hankering to see Fenris.  Everything else in those books, everything involving the fall of Magnus and the burning of Prospero comes about from Free Will.  

Magnus sees that Horus is about to fall and he decides to try and do something about it.  

Magnus decides to try and warn the Emperor.  

The Emperor decides to send Russ to reign him in.  

Russ decides to give Horus a call while he's heading to Prospero.  

Horus decides to make some suggestions to the course of action and/or just straight up change the orders.

And Russ decides to go along with that plan.

[Wade Garrett]

Yes, Tzeencht always gave Mags freedom of choice. In the Don Vito Corleone "Either your signature or your brains will be on this contract" meaning of the phrase.

 

He could have freely chosen to spurn Tzeencht's first deal and seen his entire Legion become puddles of eyeballs and tentacles due to the Flesh Change.

 

He could have freely turned the Shaper of Fate down on Prospero at the climax of ATS and then watched as Leman Russ burned everything he ever created before cutting his head off as a finale.

 

Very pro-choice guy, that Tzeencht.

[daveNYC]

I never said they were good or balanced choices.  Still, there's no replacement for the core choice that led to the Wolves burning Prospero.  Namely the attempts to intervene with Horus and then warn the Emperor.  

If there's some other path that leads to Magnus breaking open the webway gate in the palace basement, destroying the Emperor's great work in the process, forcing him to stay in the basement in order to prevent a daemonic incursion on Terra, and leading to the head explosions of most of the astropaths on Terra - not to mention all of this happening after he reveals himself as being opposed to the traitor Warmaster...

[Mahoo]

With the above being said, we know the Emperor was close to realising his big plans. The webway access was almost finished but I'm not sure how close he was to turning every human alive into an alpha + incorruptible psyker and ascending into godhood. If he was on the cusp of the second, the heresy wouldn't fully come into fruition because he'd destroy the chaos gods and the traitor primarchs wouldn't have any backers or temptations (other than the general extent of their personalities)

 

[Wade Garrett]

Turning every human alive into uber psykers?

 

Nikea and the fact that he had Black Ships scouring the galaxy to feed psykers into the Astronomicon like coal seem counter productive to that end.

 

Not to mention trying to defeat the Chaos Gods by making your whole race into psykers is up there with putting out a fire with rocket fuel in terms of good ideas.

 

Ask the eldar how that worked out for them.

[Mahoo]

I believe the point of it was to turn them into incorruptible psykers that would then empower the emperor when he took on the chaos gods. I can't for the life of me find the source but the jist of it was to super power all of humanity and have them feed their power to the emperor for the final battle.

 

Plus with the webway up and running the astronomicon would be redundant. No need for a warp beacon when no ones using conventional warp travel.

[daveNYC]

Turning every human alive into uber psykers?

 

Nikea and the fact that he had Black Ships scouring the galaxy to feed psykers into the Astronomicon like coal seem counter productive to that end.

 

Not to mention trying to defeat the Chaos Gods by making your whole race into psykers is up there with putting out a fire with rocket fuel in terms of good ideas.

 

Ask the eldar how that worked out for them.

 

Well, a common way to put out oil well fires is with an explosion.  

 

Perhaps having the entire human population of the galaxy simultaneously flaring up as high level psykers would have a similar effect on the Ruinous powers?

 

Or to get even weirder, that many untrained psykers, without any natural defenses, could potentially be 'accessible' by an even more powerful psyker (and we all know who the most powerful psyker in 30k is).

 

1. Turn all humans into powerful, but untrained psykers.

2. Extend consciousness throughout the galaxy using the psycho conductive elements of the webway.

3. Hook into all those newly powerful minds and... do something or other with them?  Maybe as power to attack the Ruinous Powers directly?  Or soul bind all of them at once, thereby cutting off their main source of energy?

[Kol Saresk]

I think that is actually one of the beliefs of the Inquisitorial sects.

 

Yep. Here we go.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Polypsykana#.UouYu3m9Kc0

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Horus was obviously huge in the Heresy. I am trying to think of another Primarch that could have filled his role. He turned many of his fellow Primarchs by hook or crook with little regard for nothing more than his own power. It was not a true civil war to liberate anyone.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I don't find the argument that Mortarion was bound to fall convincing. In my opinion, his view of the Emperor and the Imperium is very similar to Khan's.

[Prot]

It's an interesting question because of the timing of it.

 

If you would have asked me before these last dozen or so Heresy novels, I would have answered:

 

-The Heresy would have fallen flat on its face. Right out of the start gate without Horus.

 

After reading nearly all of the novels I am totally flipping on that stance:

 

- Horus is a puppet. He is a face to the cause while others pull the strings. He represents a truly monumental mistake by the Emperor and is a living reminder of it.  His Legion on the other hand is a monumental asset of course.

 

To me a bigger question is:

 

Where would the Heresy be if the big 'E' had not chastised Lorgar for making nations/planets/galaxies of worshippers to follow him?

 

^That right there is such a huge moment. A seemingly small scene in the entirety of the 'big story' but a tremendous catalyst for the Heresy imo.

[Kol Saresk]

"A single snowflake, can give birth to an avalanche."