Kais Klip Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I was assuming we were leaving Horus entirely out of the equation, ie 3 missing primarchs or even a successful assassination. Are you asking if anything close to the Heresy could have formulated while Horus remained loyalist? Between him and the Emperor's leadership skills, even if the latter stayed locked away, I would still put money in the loyalists even if outnumbered 1:2. Hell, him, Him and Dorn vs all the others would've have torn Terra apart in its defence into a Pyrrhic victory at best. The question I think you would be more interested in is who could rival Horus in his achievements in a more similar scenario. Like the simulations Dorn and Perturabo kept running. Who could pick up the mantle of Horus; Sanguinius? The Lion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3526971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 "A single snowflake, can give birth to an avalanche." Man that's really deep. Too deep for me this early in the morning. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3526994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 About Morty and Mags, they are both examples of what happens when a Chaos God makes a grab for a Primarch against their wishes. In both cases, the end result was two Chaos Primarchs. Whether by Nurgle's ham-fisted attempt, or Tzeentch's manipulative wiles, they got their chosen. So the question is, why wouldn't they continue to do so with Horus out of the picture? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I was assuming we were leaving Horus entirely out of the equation, ie 3 missing primarchs or even a successful assassination. Are you asking if anything close to the Heresy could have formulated while Horus remained loyalist? Between him and the Emperor's leadership skills, even if the latter stayed locked away, I would still put money in the loyalists even if outnumbered 1:2. Hell, him, Him and Dorn vs all the others would've have torn Terra apart in its defence into a Pyrrhic victory at best. The question I think you would be more interested in is who could rival Horus in his achievements in a more similar scenario. Like the simulations Dorn and Perturabo kept running. Who could pick up the mantle of Horus; Sanguinius? The Lion? Best option would be Sanguinius. The Lion has zero interpersonal skills. He's lucky to have the loyalty of his own legion, much less convincing anyone else to follow him. Sanguinius is usually listed as the only other guy that could have been Warmaster, and while Horus was respected by the other Primarchs (with a lot of wiggle room, considering how messed up the members of that family were), Sanguinius actually seems to have been liked by the other Primarchs (again with the wiggle room). Part of a problem with alt-Heresy scenarios is having to remove Magnus from the equation some how. Doesn't do much to say "Primarch X decided to fight the Imperium... right up until Magnus choked him from orbit and then threw him into the sun using MAGIC!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 I was assuming we were leaving Horus entirely out of the equation, ie 3 missing primarchs or even a successful assassination. Are you asking if anything close to the Heresy could have formulated while Horus remained loyalist? I sometimes wonder if people here read the first post at all: Assuming Horus for whatever reason remained loyal (ex. Erebus tripping on a badly hammered nail and breaking his neck on a flight of stairs, etc.) and the other traitor Primarchs still became traitors, how much would not having Horus hamper the Heresy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 To me a bigger question is: Where would the Heresy be if the big 'E' had not chastised Lorgar for making nations/planets/galaxies of worshippers to follow him? Nowhere. But that is not the question of the thread. It`s not about preventing the Heresy, but not having Horus leading it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 To honestly answer the OP, not entirely sure. The Heresy is something that took forty-three years to engineer. And Horus was only involved for the last three years. One could argue that he was the catalyst that let all the dominoes fit into place. One could argue that Lorgar, Erebus and/or Kor Phaeron would have found another way. All of the Primarchs who turned Traitor had their reasons to fall. Horus was nothing more than the Devil who convinced Faust to sign away his[their] soul. I don't think it would have fallen flat on its face. It made not have been quite so well-engineered in its first few victories, but it would have been a rot and cancer that still would have spread, changing a coup d'état into a war of attrition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I don't think it would have fallen flat on its face. It made not have been quite so well-engineered in its first few victories, but it would have been a rot and cancer that still would have spread, changing a coup d'état into a war of attrition. That is actually exactly the sort of thing that the Guilliman Heresy tries to convey. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Yes, Magnus would have thrown any other Primarch that messed with him into the sun. Just like he did to Russ on Prospero OH WAIT. As to who could have led without Horus: If Fulgrim had retained his stability instead of having most of his higher brain functions et by Slaanesh he wouldn't be a bad option. A non cuckoo Fulgrim could concieveably swing Ferrous (Step One: Not jumping straight to "So, me and Horus are gonna kill dad. Wanna help?") and Curze to his banner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Remember though, the only reason Magnus didn't kill Russ was because he felt he deserved the censure. He could have easily done it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 What? No, not at all. He could have aided his sons in keeping the Wolves from landing (potentially, it was phrased to seem like boasting, which rarely, if ever, ends up true), and refused to participate in the earlier portions of the battle, but he did commit himself eventually. When the Cyclops and the Wolf dueled, they were both in it to the death. Magnus refused to swing at first, but when he started punching he didn't pull any of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Magnus could have killed Russ before he touched foot on Prospero. The fact that he didn't is only because of plot continuity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Magnus could have killed Russ before he touched foot on Prospero. The fact that he didn't is only because of plot continuity. "Could have" and actually able to are two different creatures. We have evidence of Magnus doing a bit, but nothing showing that he can go Heart of the Tardis-Rose and just disassemble the molecular structure of a ship and leave its occupants drifting. Heck, he needed the help of a warp entity just to reach Terra by Warp-Mail. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Yeah...I'm going to need citations for Magnus having a Death Star level eyebeam. The biggest thing we see from him in ATS is taking on the corrupted eldar titans, and it's worth remembering they would have taken him if the rest of the Sons and the Wolves hadn't come to his aid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Being a new reader of the heresy (Up to A Thousand Sons) I'll throw in my 2 cents. Without Horus, events of this scale would not have been possible. Horus is not just a Primarch, he is the Emperor's Warmaster, his proxy. No one else could have staged the events as they unfolded. No one else could have swayed the Mechanicum and secure it's resources, order legion movements to create openings and ultimately create so much civil unrest. Would other Primarchs go renegade? Sure. Would it matter? No. Legions of the Heresy era need the backing of Terra and the Mechanicum to sustain their craft. Ultimately they would starve off in attrition cut off from resources. No matter how crafty their guerrilla warfare would be, they would be nuissances, nothing more. Horus was the Linchpin, just as his Father raised him to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Magnus could have killed Russ before he touched foot on Prospero. The fact that he didn't is only because of plot continuity. "Could have" and actually able to are two different creatures. We have evidence of Magnus doing a bit, but nothing showing that he can go Heart of the Tardis-Rose and just disassemble the molecular structure of a ship and leave its occupants drifting. Heck, he needed the help of a warp entity just to reach Terra by Warp-Mail. I guess, but he had plenty of time to pretty much wipe Russ off the map but instead spent it sulking. He only grew a spine at the very end, and at that point all was lost anyhow. He was still the second most powerful Psyker in the universe, right behind old daddy dearest. If you honestly don't think he could simply blink Russ into a pulpy paste, I think you underestimate Magnus greatly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Magnus could have killed Russ before he touched foot on Prospero. The fact that he didn't is only because of plot continuity. "Could have" and actually able to are two different creatures. We have evidence of Magnus doing a bit, but nothing showing that he can go Heart of the Tardis-Rose and just disassemble the molecular structure of a ship and leave its occupants drifting. Heck, he needed the help of a warp entity just to reach Terra by Warp-Mail.I guess, but he had plenty of time to pretty much wipe Russ off the map but instead spent it sulking. He only grew a spine at the very end, and at that point all was lost anyhow. He was still the second most powerful Psyker in the universe, right behind old daddy dearest. If you honestly don't think he could simply blink Russ into a pulpy paste, I think you underestimate Magnus greatly.Possibly, although probably in the same stretch any Primarch is underestimated. I agree that if Magnus had joined in earlier, it would be the Battle of Prospero, not the Razing. As far as "wiping the floor" with Russ, iffy. It could have happened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Magnus could have killed Russ before he touched foot on Prospero. The fact that he didn't is only because of plot continuity. "Could have" and actually able to are two different creatures. We have evidence of Magnus doing a bit, but nothing showing that he can go Heart of the Tardis-Rose and just disassemble the molecular structure of a ship and leave its occupants drifting. Heck, he needed the help of a warp entity just to reach Terra by Warp-Mail. I guess, but he had plenty of time to pretty much wipe Russ off the map but instead spent it sulking. He only grew a spine at the very end, and at that point all was lost anyhow. He was still the second most powerful Psyker in the universe, right behind old daddy dearest. If you honestly don't think he could simply blink Russ into a pulpy paste, I think you underestimate Magnus greatly. Nothing hints at the fact that Magnus can do anything in that order of magnitude either. His threat to destroy the Space Wolves ships from orbit when challenged by The Fift Company Wolf Lord was a bluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I think you're over-estimating him. He has never been described as having that much power, nor has any claims of approaching it been shown to hold any weight. Magnus and Russ went toe to toe, and psychic attacks were used. He lost anyways. It doesn't belittle him for losing, any more than it did Russ when he lost the duel against Angron. Saying he held back and could have exploded him at any time, he just didn't want to, does. It makes the whole thing sound cheap. Like a little kid's rationale on how he totally survived that game of Cowboys and Indians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 If only some random Prospero Spireguard would have jumped in between Russ and Magnus and been casually swatted out of existence. I bet that would have caused Magnus to cease holding back and flay Leman's soul into nonexistence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 If only some random Prospero Spireguard would have jumped in between Russ and Magnus and been casually swatted out of existence. I bet that would have caused Magnus to cease holding back and flay Leman's soul into nonexistence. Right... He doesn't care about the fate of his own sons, what do you think a mare conscript will change to that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Probably. Just saying, Magnus could have trumped Russ if he actually had his heart in it. But that's neither here nor there, because neither could have led a Civil War in Horus' place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 If only some random Prospero Spireguard would have jumped in between Russ and Magnus and been casually swatted out of existence. I bet that would have caused Magnus to cease holding back and flay Leman's soul into nonexistence. Exactly where I saw the argument going. Why didn't Magnus go emperor on Russ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I feel the heresy only worked because of the opening blows. 2 legions near obliterated another lost their gene sire and as this happened cutting off others to reinforce trapping others and having the confusion in place to keep inflicting damage on this scale. Once the surprises were over the loyalists got their :cuss in gear pretty quick. Those opening moves were what were needed and only Horus could have done it from the position of warmaster Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I honestly think that Magnus was holding back as well since he felt the punishment was due. The Emperor held back (until it is amended by Matt Ward, Guillliman beats up Horus with only two lost marines whoever) against Horus as he thought he could redeem him and saw him still as daddy's little boy. However when that veil was lifted, he fried Horus into kfc with seemingly little effort and was spent because his body was destroyed not his mind/pschic ability. He is still up to large scale psker shenanigans in 40k as well. The emps can put the whole legion of WBs on their knees at a command, and Magnus being the second most powerful I'm sure could smush ships in orbit just how LORGAR did with that thunderhawk...and he's an untrained latent pskerish but beyond these shenanigans which might enevitable shut down the thread.... Horus was needed to make a successful rebellion. He had the logistics and support to back up a coup as just a great military will fall flat on its face without materiel. The other rebellions would've been too sectarian and dealt by control and conquer one by one till they were wiped out. And with the battle aboard the vengeful spirit prolly provided an opening for the traitor primarchs to flee to the warp Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283471-how-much-would-not-having-horus-hurt-the-traitors-cause/page/2/#findComment-3527557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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