How much would not having Horus hurt the Traitor`s cause?

[Wade Garrett]

Angron military pressed a Warhound Titan...so Horus could punch Terra and make it fly out of its orbit into the sun!

 

But he decided to go with attacking the Palace in a big siege because it would make Perturabo happy. That Horus, what a guy. All heart, he was!

[Memento Of Prospero]

You guys seem to equate psyker greatness to destructive power. It is not so. Psyker have various disciplines and domains of activity. It took everything Magnus had in his gas tank to destroy a wounded Eldar Wraith Knight. I do not think it within his reach to do some of the things you guys claim. Wss he holding back? Maybe. Did it matter? Probably not. Leman Russ literally has an adamantium will, and his psychic scream literally fried dozens of thousand sons empaths. He was more than a match.

[Conn Eremon]

Except Magnus wasn't holding back. He locked himself away, letting whatever happens happen. Then he had a "You know what? :cuss this." moment and proceeded to go all out against Russ.

 

At no moment did he hold back. He went from pacifist to "I totally get why Angron is the way he is."

[GhostMalone]

New visions of heresy state that the emperor only killed Horus as the toll of the war was too much and that the bloodshed needed to stop, he then decided to destroy horus then and there as he couldn't stop horus if he got up for round 2

[CorvusCoraxLivesOn]

As for the Magnus thing, he could have destroyed the Space Wolf fleet when they were in the warp. Not because he himself was that powerful, but that daemon whose name was super long and won't come to mind right now offered to do it for him. But Magnus was like "Never..." because he was in his self-loathing phase and was sure that he deserved the punishment. Plus using a daemon to destroy your brother would definitely make you into a complete (willing) puppet of Tzeentch. I mean he already was, but by giving in and using that corrupt power he would basically give in to the corruption that had led him to his destruction.

For the original question, I think the Heresy would still have happened, but muuuuuuuuch differently than how it did, and certainly nothing as organized. Depends really on who rose to led the Traitor legions. A Curze led Heresy would be way different than say an Angron led Heresy. 

[Kol Saresk]

Actually that was Tzeentch. :P or at least, as close as to Tzeentch as we'll ever see. Or rather, that was my impression at any rate.

 

Anywho, but see, that wouldn't be "Magnus destroying the fleet". That would be "Magnus is responsible for the destruction of the fleet".

[depthcharge12]

Except Magnus wasn't holding back. He locked himself away, letting whatever happens happen. Then he had a "You know what? this." moment and proceeded to go all out against Russ.

At no moment did he hold back. He went from pacifist to "I totally get why Angron is the way he is."

So the whole thing about not letting his sons know about the fleet and not arming the planetary defenses was him going absolutely crazy Machavellian we must stop him at all costs.

yeah hoookay

If Magnus truly decided to take part in the razing of prospero it would probably be the battle of prospero at the worst and most like the annihilation of the Space wolves legion.

And magnus would be more than capable of destroying the fleet, you don't get to be the second most powerful psker in the galaxy with cheap parlor tricks, thats what we have alpharius for

[Kol Saresk]

Except Magnus wasn't holding back. He locked himself away, letting whatever happens happen. Then he had a "You know what? this." moment and proceeded to go all out against Russ.

At no moment did he hold back. He went from pacifist to "I totally get why Angron is the way he is."

So the whole thing about not letting his sons know about the fleet and not arming the planetary defenses was him going absolutely crazy Machavellian we must stop him at all costs.

yeah hoookay

If Magnus truly decided to take part in the razing of prospero it would probably be the battle of prospero at the worst and most like the annihilation of the Space wolves legion.

And magnus would be more than capable of destroying the fleet, you don't get to be the second most powerful psker in the galaxy with cheap parlor tricks, thats what we have alpharius for

Except that we don't even have evidence that the Emperor could do such a thing. Remember, the Emperor is the most powerful psyker who was being choked out by an Ork.

We have no evidence whatsoever that Magnus could go Time Vortex-Rose Tyler on the DaleksSpace Wolves. None. When he joined the battle, he fought with no restraint and still lost. If he had joined earlier, it would have been the Battle of Prospero and could have gone either way. But we have no evidence whatsoever that Magnus could fart and destroy the entire Space Wolves fleet. We don't even have evidence of the Emperor being able to that and He's the guy who can obliterate souls.

[depthcharge12]

@kol

 

We have an example of lorgar swatting a flying thunderhawk out of the sky and he was an untrained latent pskyer

 

 

Magnus trained and honed his ability for quite some time, spoke with his father about his abilities, and did a number of different things.

 

 

Not to mention the fact that "tzeentch" asked him if he wanted to destroy the wolves en route while they were still in the warp.

 

 

 

so the question:

 

Did Magnus hold back till he fought Russ? Yes he did

 

 

Could Magnus have prevented a massacre of his troops and make the battle more balanced? Yes he could've but held back as he saw the punishment fitting

 

 

Can low level pskers in the fluff open warp rifts to suck people in (vortex of doom)? Yes they can, so Magnus could do it on a larger scale being so powerful

 

 

Can little circumstances happen that are idiotic happen (i.e. ork ,the size that makes ghazzy look like a grot, choke the emperor. Temba knifes Horus, who as we know, lets only Sanguinus get away with a scratch on his armor. list goes on and on)? Yes they can and they do, but it doesn't determine their power all the time. Despite being the best psker/fighter/NBA player in the galaxy doesn't mean you don't make mistakes or have bad days

[Kol Saresk]

@kol

 

We have an example of lorgar swatting a flying thunderhawk out of the sky and he was an untrained latent pskyer

 

 

Magnus trained and honed his ability for quite some time, spoke with his father about his abilities, and did a number of different things.

 

 

Not to mention the fact that "tzeentch" asked him if he wanted to destroy the wolves en route while they were still in the warp.

Tzeenntch also asked him once if he wanted to save his Sons from the Flesh-Change permanently. And then it came back.

 

And straining to grab something that is basically right in front of you, is a different ball game than projecting your astral body and stirring the warp into a frenzy or reaching out and tearing apart the ships and crew at the molecular level, or however it would have been if it could have been done, I imagine.

 

And those warp rifts usually involved either the death of the psyker or ritual sacrifices. So I guess if Magnus sat there, formed up another sacrificial coven(assuming he didn't use up all the viable candidates when he blasted halfway to Terra before having to get a pick-me-up), he might have been able to stir it up in a similar as the warp-mines that had living psykers in them like we saw in Battle for the Abyss. But so far, all these things have required sacrifices. They aren't solitary efforts. Even the Astronomicon requires a constant feeding of power. And its powerful enough to becalm the warp to a degree.

[depthcharge12]

Oh im not saying that it wouldn't require a great deal of effort, but it is possible.

 

Magnus would be very spent after doing it, or require a large amount of sacrifices. More than likely Magnus would drop unconscious after smashing the ships together, exciting the fission engines, throwing them into the sun, and other naughty psyker tricks. Which means that he would get only one shot at Russ and preventing him from entering orbit or else he would be chopped up in his coma.

 

Tzeenntch also asked him once if he wanted to save his Sons from the Flesh-Change permanently. And then it came back.

 

 

Of course it came back, after the legion went into the warp realm, where your body will change regardless of who you are or would at least exacerbate the problem

 

 

 

The things I was trying to refute were "Magnus wasn't holding back" which I did, and "psyker power doesn't equate to greatness", which it does as it is silly to say that when someone who is stronger than me can lift things and do things I can clearly not do

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Tzeenntch also asked him once if he wanted to save his Sons from the Flesh-Change permanently. And then it came back.

 

 

Of course it came back, after the legion went into the warp realm, where your body will change regardless of who you are or would at least exacerbate the problem

 

 

Actually I was referring to the first time it came back. Magnus gave up his eye, in return he'd get to control the fates of his sons, etc etc etc.

 

And sorry, I still don't exactly buy Magnus destroying the fleet. Maybe if I see something where someone reaches into orbit and does something, yeah maybe. But right the biggest difference I see between Lorgar and Magnus is that Lorgar strained to manhandle a Thunderhawk. Magnus strained to manhandle a Titan. There's the difference the scale as far as I can tell.

 

Don't get me wrong, this is just my opinion, not fact. Like I said, currently the facts are just that we have no evidence to neither support nor refute and as such, cannot say either as fact. I cannot say Magnus can't destroy the fleet, just that we have no evidence of him(or even the Emperor who only had the Astronomicon right there throughout the whole Siege) being that capable and nor do I currently believe it is possible. But on the flipside, nor can one say Magnus can, just that is what they believe.

[depthcharge12]

Ah well you know its not fact till its done, but hey im saying its very plausable, which again is what I believe.

 

 

 

Only half eldar Ultramarine librarians can do that, thats the truth.

[Conn Eremon]

It's just not plausible to me. Not the least of which because it would turn the whole event into a cheap, tawdry affair where Magnus chooses the route of "I'm going to pretend I can't let my sons be destroyed, while letting them be destroyed by nosediving a duel with Russ! And then I'll beg to be saved by the same warp demon that caused all this death and destruction, because I need to be punished for going along with it in the past. Brilliant."

 

Thank you, but no. I like Magnus too much to want to see that.

 

Instead, we see a Primarch who is the second most powerful Human psyker* go up against another Primarch who came very much prepared for a fight to the death with a force of uber-psykers and, just barely, losing. We see Magnus refuse to allow himself to be further damned by raising a hand against the Wolves in the opening while a nearby voice that has lied to him from the beginning whispers how easy it would be to crush them, totally because he could do it and not because he wanted Magnus to further damn himself. It's not like he's been lying since the beginning. Oh wait.

 

* Which doesn't honestly say much. More powerful than Malcador, but this is the same Malcador who died trying to sit in a chair for .00000000000000001% of the time the Emperor does while himself near death. More powerful than Malcador, who got :cuss -slapped by the pre-Chaos Lorgar, in comparison to the Emperor, who went toe to toe with Chaos Horus and obliterated him twice. Being the second most powerful psyker doesn't have to mean "just under the Emperor in strength." It could mean, for instance, "slightly stronger than Malcador, the potentially third most powerful psyker." Which would make both leagues behind Big E. There could be alpha level psykers in 40k more powerful than Magnus was, for all we know. If we use the Golden Throne as a scale, since it does nothing more than channel raw psyker energy and is unrelated to any field, for all we know being second most powerful meant that Magnus, at full health and strength, could have lasted three decades. While near death Emps has lasted ten thousand years and counting, and Malcador lasted as long as the Emperor needed to obliterate Horus, which was apparently not very long. 

 

In other words, being the second most powerful psyker doesn't mean "near equal" to the most powerful psyker. It means that psyker falls anywhere between the most powerful and the third most powerful. When using the Emperor and Malcador to fill those roles, that is a gulf wider than that between Malcador and a Null Maiden. And it doesn't help that everything that Magnus has ever done with his mind that could be seen as representative of the required strength was wrought not just by himself but by harnessing the strengths of his entire Legion and mortal forces, not all of which survived the ordeal. And even then, "entering Horus' :cuss ed up dreams" or "HI, DAD, WHATCHA DOIN'?" aren't exactly representative of the required strength to do a "Hiya, Russ. WELCOME TO THE SUN."

[Wade Garrett]

I don't think its correct to call Lorgar an "untrained" psyker by the time he's smashing Thunderhawks in Betrayer. It's quite clear that he has honed his talents immensely in the interim between that and annoying Corax with shiny gold lights in The First Heretic.

[depthcharge12]

I don't think its correct to call Lorgar an "untrained" psyker by the time he's smashing Thunderhawks in Betrayer. It's quite clear that he has honed his talents immensely in the interim between that and annoying Corax with shiny gold lights in The First Heretic.

 

Yes and now you can see the difference between the training and how much of a difference it can make. Especially when thats one of your big things.

[GhostMalone]

But don't all primarchs have psyker abilities to a degree... Some are pretty lame but for all intents and purposes they are the sons of the emperor so don't need to throw thunderhawks and stop Titan blasts.

[daveNYC]

Magnus probably could have destroyed the fleet in orbit, but that's just because Imperial ship are flaming deathtraps.  There's no need to try and pull them from orbit or crush their hulls or anything on that grand scale.  All you'd need to do is control the mind of the helmsman and engage the warp engines.  Between being too deep in a gravity well for a safe translation and not turning on the geller field, you've eliminated at least one ship, and possibly more, depending on just what sort of bad things happen when you try and go into the warp and you're not at a safe translation point.

 

Alternatively, use telekinesis to trigger the explosion of a torpedo in the magazine or force a servitor to overload a plasma reactor.

[depthcharge12]

Magnus probably could have destroyed the fleet in orbit, but that's just because Imperial ship are flaming deathtraps.  There's no need to try and pull them from orbit or crush their hulls or anything on that grand scale.  All you'd need to do is control the mind of the helmsman and engage the warp engines.  Between being too deep in a gravity well for a safe translation and not turning on the geller field, you've eliminated at least one ship, and possibly more, depending on just what sort of bad things happen when you try and go into the warp and you're not at a safe translation point.

 

Alternatively, use telekinesis to trigger the explosion of a torpedo in the magazine or force a servitor to overload a plasma reactor.

 

Thank you. This is what I was talking about.

 

 

In Signus, warpcraft caused the human crews to lose their minds, kill eachother, and drive the Red Tear into the ground.

 

 

I hate to use this adage (is it? correct me if im wrong), but the ship is only as good as its weakest link, and a lot of essential crew are serfs read human

 

 

Hell, if Magnus had not held back and told his fleet to stay in orbit and told his sons of their impending doom, Im sure they could do a collective psyker ability just like the Communion and fry some brains. Ahriman (another very strong psyker) has an out of body thingy just so he can go poof that lame space wolf priest.

[DuskRaider]

Magnus could have defeated Russ if he actually tried. Just accept it, because it's true. Russ survived due to that 1+/1++ Plot Armor Save.

[depthcharge12]

You forgot the 1+ FNP too. :P

[Conn Eremon]

Magnus could have defeated Russ if he actually tried. Just accept it, because it's true. Russ survived due to that 1+/1++ Plot Armor Save.

You talk as if it's Russ getting the short end of the stick, but it's only Magnus who is getting cheapened by that belief.

[daveNYC]

Magnus could have defeated Russ if he actually tried. Just accept it, because it's true. Russ survived due to that 1+/1++ Plot Armor Save.

 

The problem with discussing Magnus vs. PrimarchX is that magic power in Warhammer is pretty much pure handwavium backed up by 'because shut up, that's why'.  So the same thing that blasts a hole in a corrupted Eldar titan and deflects an orbital bombardment can be ignored like water off a duck's back because the opponent had Willpower.

 

It's a problem that gets magnified when you're reading about a situation where there's plot armor involved.  Battle of the Fang, a great book, had serious issues with this.

[depthcharge12]

He can still lose a wound on a cocked die

[Wade Garrett]

Ahriman (another very strong psyker) has an out of body thingy just so he can go poof that lame space wolf priest.

And when he used that ability earlier in the book, "that lame wolf priest" had to save his ethereal backside from being et by Warp gribblies.

 

I was not impressed by his performance.