Grey Knights: How Competitive are they in 6th?

[Rommel44]

Hey mates. With 6th edition out for awhile now, a friend of mine who has been interested but hesitant to play has finally dived in and he is interested in play GK's, as not only does he love the models, but he also loves the fluff of these guys slaughtering daemons and just owning Chaos on a daily basis. That being said, I am not sure how effect the GK's are in this current edition, so basically to help him out, just need some tactical knowledge on how the GK's are currently fairing in this edition, particularly which army lists work the best in this edition and why. He is liking the idea of running the Castellan Crowe list with a bunch of purifiers or the Interceptor Spam list, but I'm not sure if they are worth running in this edition. Basically need all the knowledge, advice, and tactics that make GK's worth it in this edition and thanks for all of the help!

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Not that list, anything but that.....seriously though that list aint packing the same puch it use too.

 

Best port of call terminators and a teleporting dreadknight with incinerator and greatsword, then flesh out from there.

 

Sorry for quick post, just about to head out. Hope this info helps.

 

Sirus

[TheDarkOne]

Grey Knights dominated 5th, with Necrons in the end.

 

Now, Tau and Eldar, and to a lesser extent Demons are the armies to beat, and the allies combinations that include those (particularly tau/dar).

 

GK i think ar still tier 1, but at the bottom rungs of that tier.

 

They're good, but elite, and when other armies can outshout you so massively from a distance, you'll have some problems.

 

You will typically always have less models on the board than your opponnents, and the majority of your units aren't particulalry mobile (6" move or in a tank, or teleporting), and most have a 24" range sweet spot.

 

Purifiers are great, as fearless infantry, paying the crowe tax is cumbersome, as now he relinqueshes 'slay the warlord' if he's your only HQ, and just as before can't join squads.

 

where GK really shine is in the following units:

 

Cotaez - he's a boss ML 2 divination psyker that unlocks henchmen as troops. I have taken him in 100% of my 6th edition games.

 

Ordo Malleus inquisitor in Terminator Armor, with Psycannon, as a ML 1 Divination Psyker - at 110 points he's a steal. drop him into a unit of terminators to add a psycannon, and give those terminators prescience. its 580 for the unit including this badass, but that unit has carried games for me.

 

Terminators, 10 of them with psybolts and 2 psycannons - the squad that loves to walk with an inqisitor (either cotaez or the termi inq listed above). they put out 8 psycannon shots a tuirn with 16 S5 bolter shots, all within 24", and all twin linked if you bring a divination psyker. great troop unit.

 

3 warrior acolytes in a razorback with psybolts - with cotaez these little twirps become scoring, and for 62 points your really only paying for a S6 hv bolter razorback, the troop choice is gravy. i try to take 3 of these, as 3 is still cheaper than a barebones 10 man strike squad.

 

Dreadknights with heavy incinerator and personal teleporter - this 235 point monster was the king of my army at the end of 5th beginning of 6th. he zipped around the board with his teleporter and used his S10 doomfists to slaughter everyone he met. often he died to focus fire, but he does draw a lot of shots. now his value has gone down in the face of riptides (+1 wound, cheaper, better shooting and interceptor), and Wraithknights (Instant death causing ranged weapon, +2T, +2W(may be just 1?), lower save but cheaper and a little faster). I have alyways tried to run them in pairs, but my friends tau list has taken to removing one completely and reducing the other to 1 or 2 wounds in 1 round of shooting...

 

Psyfleman Dreadnoughts (Dreadnought with 2x Twin Linked Autocannon and Psybolts) - a 5th edition staple and the standout from our codex when it was first released, these puppies pour out 4 twin linked S8 shots at 48". for 135 points they're still good value. where they suffer now is that eldar and tau tanks get cover saves like crazy, making their shooting less effective. and both armies have ways of putting S7 no cover saves shots on your dreadnought, which is a pain in the but.

 

Stormraven - The Gk stormraven wasn't recognized as high quality right away with people preferring the blood angles variant with its S8 missiles instead. now however with the changes to flyer rules in 6th edition, i love the 255 point gunboat that our stromraven can be with psybolts, twin linked assault cannon, twin linked multi melta and hurricaine bolter racks. the hurricaine bolters are S5, and the assualt cannon is S7. that puppy puts out a lot of pain, and is a decent anti flyer.

 

 

The other units in the book all have some application or another, but the above ones are the go to that i operate from.

 

I haven't mentioned strike squads or interceptors, or purifiers or purgation squads... they're all different flavors of the same concept, power armored grey knights. I believe that terminators outperform all the above (even given grav cannon centurions). the helldrake is a thing, that can single-handedly wipe out a unit of power armor guys with its breath, tau put so many shots out that you'll have a real hard time surviving without a 2+ and eldar have their 'rending' shuriken weapons to bring the pain (as well as dark reapers that can simply delete units of marines each shooting phase). They still have their place in the army, I just don't think they're the top players in 6th anymore.

 

I also didn't mention paladins, as the riptide makes them categorically irrelevant IMHO. dropping a S8 or 9 AP2 large blast on these guys really puts a dent in their redeeming factor, 2 wounds.

 

Here is a sample armylist that I would run:

 

Cotaez

 

Ordo Malleus Inquistor, TDA, Psycannon, Psyker - 110

 

10 Terminators, Psybolts, 2 Psycannons, assorted melee weapons - 470

3 warrior acolytes in a razoroback with psybolts - 62

3 warrior acolytes in a razoroback with psybolts - 62

3 warrior acolytes in a razoroback with psybolts - 62

 

Dreadknight, Teleporter, Incinerator - 235

Dreadnought - 2x Twin linked Autocannon, Psybolts - 135

Dreadnought - 2x Twin linked Autocannon, Psybolts - 135

 

Thats 1371 leaves some wiggle room to bring it up to 1500.

 

As a jumping off point that's where I'd start.

 

Grey Knights are indeed still viable, they're just not top of the food chain anymore.

[Grand Master Caloth]

I'm sorry, but i have to disagree with how you basically categorically dismiss the PA GKs. Your entire post espouses the stereotypical henchman build while telling a new player that " these are all you should use, don't bother with anything else". I whole-heartedly, and none to humbly, deny and defy your logic. My list uses no =I=, two squads of strikes, paladins, a GM and Lib, with other flavorings. Instead of only talking of the merits of the units you prefer, you should speak on all. I hate to tell you, I'm confident that your list is only minimally competitive with the minimized squads in AV 11/10.

[Terrified Templar]

Hey chill Caloth, not everyone has the same playstyle or the same experiance with the same units. TheDarkOne probably has had a lot of experiance with the units he uses and not as much on power armoured GKs so he is giving advice based on what has worked for him and not on things that he might not know how to get the best use out of them. You seem to be bashing on his advice a bit too harshly here, it is possible to have a disagreement without bashing so just tone it down a bit. Thanks.

[TheDarkOne]

Thanks for responding!

 

First of all, I mean no offense and have no intention of starting an argument, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

 

I was merely talking about what works for me, and to be honest I ran out of time to properly address the Power Armored grey knights.

 

The thing is, I haven't used many of the other GK HQ in this edition, so I don't have much to say about them. when the book dropped, I used a libarian as my solo hq, with an inquisitor in TDA with psycannon (no reason to be a psyker back then) as a backup hq. I even ran a grandmaster with a psycannon occasionally, and i used to put meltaguns on my razorback henchmen but not any more.

 

YEs, those razorbacks are basically deathtraps for those inside, but the value is so great for 62 points, i have had great success with them. often i'll reserve one or two if my opponent has good anti tank that can just wipe them.

 

Power Armor. I love it. I'm just a little miffed with it in sixth though. 

 

Popwer armored grey knights are hands down the best power armored unit in the game with force weapons and stormbolters base, and a psychic power to give them +1S, or another that gives them a 12" zone of denial for deepstrikers, AND they come with grenades that make psykers they are attacking strike at initiative 1, and they have preferred enemy demons, and they have the aegis to force enemy psykers that target them to lower their leadship by one for the test. a ten man squad is 200 points, average about 50 points more than base marines (assuming a 15 point marine). that squad outperforms marines on all counts, it outshoots them, and out melee's them with force weapons as standard. and only 5 points per guy for all that. 5 points more than a standard marine that is.

 

the options you can buy for a strike squad are where they really shine. 2 psycannons are almost compulsory, unless you're planning on running incinerators, which i prefer to run with purifiers as they're... free? 2 psycannons in the squad, because that's awesome. 2 points per guy.

 

Psybolts, I always take. I didn't used to always, but for 2 points per guy (in a ten man squad) to add to the list of special goodness that differentiates grey knights from marines S5 stormbolters? yes please. they can threaten tanks like this too! too bad they won't often see rear armor, unless they deepsrike of course. which they can do too.

 

so...

 

S5 Stormboters

2 psycannons

Warp Quake

Force Weapons Standard

Deepstirke

the Aegis

 

for 24 points per guy. granted thats 9 points more than a standard marine, but its worth it as their offensive potential is incredibly threatening.

 

Add to the mix the fact that you can buy halberds, hammers and force staves for EACH guy in the squad, you can make that a truly awesome unit.

 

they can buy a rhino, or a badass razorback with psybolts. I used to run 5 man squads with just an psycanon to buy the razorbacks, before i started using cotaez. 

 

Interceptors are identical to strike marines in every way, including the deepstrike denying warp quake. but, for 6 MORE points you give them teleporters.

 

6 points for a jump pack? that's not bad, right? well once per game you can move 30", pretty useful right?

 

Take into consideration the fact that either of these squads can be combat squadded, and its easy to get creative with them. you can even hold a combat squad of interceptors off the board to shunt 30" onto the board later in the game - basically up from your board edge, you deepstrike without scatter. THATS awesome!

 

I mainly use interceptors now, i've given in to their cost and appreciate the unit with additional mobility. 

 

I don't often use purifiers, but they are close combat monsters, able to burn through hordes rapidly.

 

I've never used purgation squads, between dreadknights dreadnoughts and landraiders, I just don't seem to find the room for these guys.

 

 

 

 

I in no way want to discourage anyone form playing GK, they're a great army with some great units, and with all the henchmen options (which i haven't talked about at all, but are also really cool) you can build a very customized army. there's even assassins!

 

the book allows any new player to explore and take risks, and not be punished too often. when i first started collecting grey knights i bought 20 power armor guys and 10 terminators. i got a pair of rhinos and a landraider. i built a grandmaster and a librarian, and as soon as i started reading on the forums about how the dreadnoughts were awesome i built 2. that's where i started and from that seed grew a fairly substantial force that I'm very happy to own. Grey Knights rule.

 

In my previous post i was more trying to comment on grey knights in 6th edition, form a tournament position, i overlooked the fact that it may discourage a new player from playing grey knights. Sorry about that.

[TheDarkOne]

If anyone's interested I won a major tournament with Grey knights last Fall (Sept 2012), and detailed it with pics of my army and batreps here.

 

It was a great time, but now I don't think the army list would be as competitive. it was a helluva lot of fun!

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261706-warmasters-challenge/?hl=%2Bwarmaster&do=findComment&comment=3191944

[Grand Master Caloth]

You know, you are right. That did come off way more confrontational than it was ever meant to, and i apologize, Dark. Thank you for taking the time to cover some other options, i had intended to when i got of duty but only just now got home. I am just very sick of hearing nearly every player say Coteaz is an auto- include, henchmen are t the only way, etc etc.... and due to work, i let my frustration get the better of me. I'm truly sorry.

 

On a quick side note, i ALWAYS psybolt 10-man squads. Not worth it on 5- man sets imo, but as Dark points out, it's an amazing deal for full squads

[Reclusiarch Darius]

We're around, but 6th edition has been hell on our builds and our units. We're an expensive MeQ army in an edition that has repeatedly nerfed Marine advantages into the ground;

 

- 3+ saves are basically meaningless in 6th. Heldrakes and Riptides ensure this, and every other army has either the massed fire or cheap AP2 to make you regret bringing them. 

- Low model count armies suffer horribly under the new wound allocation rules

- Cover saves are lower across the board, and 'Ignore Cover' is no longer just for template or barrage, its everywhere now

- Mech died in 6th, putting the Purifier spam list into the grave it deserved (it was a terrible army list anyway)

- The nerf to mech has largely put our PsyDreads out of a job. They're still good, but they die way too easily now. 

 

We still have advantages which make us worthwhile, which are as follows;

- Default Troop Terminators that can shoot hard and murder things in melee range. Due to cover save now being meaningless and massed fire a continuing problem, 2+/5+ is highly desirable. Riptides are still a pain, but you're basically immune to most other things short of AP2 spam

- The changes to melee have made Terminators gods in an assault. You're basically invulnerable to power weapons, with the exception of a few unique relic weapons (Blind Axe, Raven Sword etc). Anything that does have AP2 in melee generally goes at I1 due to 'Unwieldy', which means even if you are packing hammers (at least half the squad should), you still get your attacks and likely murder them harder. Monstrous Creatures are still a problem, but that's why you have 'Sanctuary', psyk-out grenades (a lot of MC's are psykers these days) and halberds. Failing that, lose a few guys (MC's rarely have more than 5 attacks), but you'll still kill them with a force activated hammer wound. 

- Henchmen are still ludicrously cheap as scoring, not to mention they still work fine as cheap fire support or cheap melee disruption. Unlike Marines or many other races, we don't have to Ally cheap scoring, we have it so long as you have Coteaz. Guard have lost a lot of their shine now that 'Ignore Cover' makes the Blob weak. They've still got Vendettas, Manticores, cheap LR squadrons and plasma Vets, but their core 'we have a million dudes who save like Terminators' is gone. 

- New Coteaz is shinier and even more powerful. Don't use the guy in our codex, use the guy in the Inquisition supplement. 

- Ravens are pretty hell good now. Still expensive, but they're easily justifiable now you run Terminator Troops. You're basically paying the price of a combat squad of Terminators, to deliver the other half reliably to enemy lines to ruin their day. Plus it brings reliably anti-tank and anti-Flyer in one sexy package. To top it all off, unlike other pleb armies, ours are in FA, our most useless army slot. So, you can still take DK's all you like in Heavy and not care about Force Org clashes. 

- DK's are money. Like, take two if you can, one at least. Riptides HATE these things, as do Centurions. Teleporter is now a mandatory upgrade, 6th edition laughs at walking MC's up the field and slaps you in the face with AP2 for years. A greatsword is also a worthwhile investment, whiffing your attacks in melee is not desirable at all. The incinerator is if you have points spare, its great but you often need the points for other things. DK's will go through most infantry, all vehicles and a lot of characters without breaking a sweat. Their only real counters are A: massed AP2 (which means your Terminators live to get safely into melee with the enemy) or B: AP2 characters/MC's who are either faster or tougher than a DK. Ironically DK's are worthless against Princes, Hive Tyrants etc (which is nuts as their background suggests they're only constructed and deployed to counter such threats), but they're death incarnate to everything else, especially infantry squads. 

 

If you're trying to write a Knight list in 6th, I'd go with the following options;

 

HQ:

 

- Coteaz. Every day. Without fail. Remember, take his more powerful Mk2 version from the Inquisition supplement. It doesn't affect your list in any way to do this. 

- 2x Divination Inquisitor. Sometimes you'll have the points to splurge out for the TDA psycannon+hammer guy, but more often you just want another cheap Stubborn+Prescience buff guy. At 2k definitely consider getting all four and Coteaz. You can never have enough re-rolls. 

- At 2k or higher, consider a Grandmaster to make whatever isn't already scoring (ie most of your list) scoring (sub out on the Inquisitors). 'Scout' can also be money on certain units (heh, DK's), 'Counterattack' is almost never a good idea, and the re-roll 1's ability is bleh. With a hammer he's a pretty good challenge hero and a good choice for Warlord, as very few things want to engage in melee with him. 

 

Oh, the other guys?

- Librarian is...somewhat okay. Your main problem with him is he's far better with the codex powers than rolling for Divination. The codex powers are all kinda cornercase though. 'Shrouding' basically just cancels out the nerf to cover saves, and it goes away when you get shot with 'Ignore Cover' anyway, so meh. 'Sanctuary' is good against assault  lists, but they're rare now, so again cornercase. 'Quicksilver' is very handy, but its not worth paying 150pts+ for by itself...same for 'Might', we have hammers galore so vehicle smashing in melee isn't 100% necessary. I will say this though, 6th is pushing offensive psykers everywhere (Telepathy, thy name is pain), so a Mastery 3 Libby can hood key units and provide a real barrier to broken stuff like the good old combo of PSB+'Shriek'. Hood also works against the new ScreamerStar shooting, which is amusing. A second-string choice to be sure, but he has his uses in certain matchups. 

- Bro Champ is for laffs. Like, say the other guy brings Abbadon, or Lysander, or some other melee monster. You throw this guy into a challenge, lose, then use your 'you're coming to hell with me' ability. In Apocalypse games, use him to take down enemy Titans and Gargantuan Creatures. The ruptured spleens of your opponents when you make their Reaver or Hierophant turn to mist is priceless. 

- Captains are the third nostril of our codex. Utterly redundant and faintly embarrassing. Such a missed opportunity....oh well.

- Draigo is meh. I'm dead serious. AP3 in melee is a joke, he brings nothing a GM that is exactly 100pts cheaper doesn't. Troop Paladins are meaningless in a world of Riptides. 

All the other SC's are trash. 

 

Elites:

 

Ded

 

Oh okay, Vindicares exist, but they're easily murdered. Can be amusing to Infiltrate and then snipe the enemy Ethereal or Shieldbreaker Lysander Turn 1. Or pop a vehicle open Turn 1. Or snipe out an enemy psyker...okay okay, he has his uses. But he's so easy to murder in 6th, 2 x T4 wounds is very easy to force. His 4+ invul doesn't last long, and he's pathetic in melee. 

 

..........................

 

Alright, fine. Purifiers in Ravens. Not on foot. Not in Rhinos. In Ravens. With melee upgrades and the free incinerators. Do not be cheeky and take Crowe and pretend you have an army. One Purifier squad max, combat squadded so you can flame multiple units and multi-charge, and multi-cast 'Cleansing Flame'. 

 

Troops:

 

Terminators. Half halberds, half hammers. Psycannons if you deploy on the board, incinerators if you're rolling in Ravens. Warding stave on the Justicar can be a situationally hilarious upgrade. Now, go make the enemy regret not bringing AP2 on all their units. Watch their tears roll down angry faces as you butcher their scoring with scoring elite infantry that just refuses to die off. And then you fight their melee specialists and win. On the objectives. 

 

Henchmen come in two distinct flavours. Shooty or hacky. Never ever make a unit that does both, its terrible and doesn't work.

The shooty variant is 3 x plasma cannon servitors and then as many Acolytes as you can as ablative wounds. If you like, you can give the Acolytes more plasma and/or storm bolters to taste. The core fun of the unit is plasma cannon servitors that re-roll to hit (mmmmmm), and if you attach Coteaz you have good odds to get 'Perfect Timing', aka 'Ignore Cover' on a stick. Marine players weep a river when you explain what the unit does. 

Hacky units go in a Raven. No questions, no substitutes. Raven or don't take them at all. Half Crusaders with power axes, half Death-Cult with power axes+swords. With the new supplement, I'd also add a Priest for the Hymns (he can take a plasma gun for lulz). 

When Henchmen die, it means the enemy is wasting firepower on stuff you don't care about. Ie they're not killing your Terminators. Rejoice!. If they ignore the Henchmen, you can quietly score your DZ objectives and rain ungodly amounts of AP2 into their advance. 

 

Strikes are alright. Reserve them though, or Raven them. Deployed, they're one enemy Shooting phase away from being mist, and unlike Henchmen, they cost serious points to field (ie usually twice as much). 

 

I will make mention of the Dr Zaius list, which is Coteaz, four Inquisitors with 'Prescience', and as many Jokaero as you can squeeze into 2,500 points. It's like the joke Servitor list, but with lascannons. 

 

Fast Attack:

 

Ravens if you have something you need transported. Otherwise get moar Terminators instead. Don't overspend on Ravens, you can easily make them Landraider price but then die to an Icarus or Broadside team, and lose the cargo as well (yay dumb transport rules!). 

 

Heavy Support:

 

Dreadknights with teleporter and greatsword. Your game plan is;

Turn 1: 30" shunt up the side of the board

Turn 2: Jump move+charge into enemy unit

Turn 3: Repeat Turn 2 until dead

 

We're a pretty good Ally too, provided the base army you're Allying with is okay with not getting your buffs. 

[number6]

I swear if I read another "mech is dead in 6th edition" I'm going to explode!

It's simply NOT TRUE. Caloth may not think much of Dark's 1500 pt mech army, but it is unquestionably competitive.

MSU builds win tabletop wargames. It's just that simple. MSU army lists builds -- regardless of whether you play 40K, Flames of War, Warmachine, or any other tabletop wargame you care to mention -- are invariably strong (and sometimes even the strongest) build pattern available.

The reason is because you saturate the battlefield with your own offensive options. And you saturate the battlefield with targets for your opponent to deal with. Redundancy is built into the army, thus the loss of any one, two, or even few units doesn't cripple the army's ability to compete. The MSU army can afford to take losses. Along the way, it's dishing out losses on the enemy as well. And if the enemy isn't also a MSU build, every loss to the enemy is asymmetrically more damaging to them than losses are to you, the MSU player.

You have more units. You have more dice. You have more choices. You have more options. The game is only X turns long. You do the math.

And before anybody goes berserk, it should go without saying that playing MSU doesn't absolve the army general from actually playing intelligently. Nor does it mean MSU is a slam-dunk victory condition. It doesn't mean you can play on an unfairly designed battlefield and expect to win anyway. (E.g., on Planet Bowling Ball when you're up against an IG gun line.) And it doesn't mean you can play an unbalanced mission (e.g., The Relic!) and expect to win.

However, when you play MSU -- if you've carefully designed your army list this way -- you've at least stacked the odds in your favor. The rest, indeed, is up to you.

Utilizing multiple inexpensive transports is a key part of playing MSU in modern 40K. Dark's army list is an excellent example at 1500 pts. It should pose a reasonable challenge to any opposing army, including the vaunted Tau and Eldar. Most 40K players these days poo-poo vehicles because, on balance, they're somewhat easier to destroy than in 5th edition. Well ... so is infantry! In this very topic, people are bemoaning downsized cover saves and the proliferation of anti-cover and AP 3 weaponry.

In case you haven't noticed, that's because 6e 40K is all about the shooting phase. That phase of the game is at the zenith of its strength; it's never wielded a more powerful influence over the outcome of 40K than it does right now.

You know what is a great way to protect yourself against enemy shooting? A whole mess of cheap, largely expendable and interchangeable, units. Including vehicles. Enough targets that they simply can't all be eliminated at once. How does it hurt to spend a pittance of points to get more guns AND a box that your opponent has to bust open first before being able to target the delicate infantry bunkered inside? This is a bad thing HOW, exactly? Your opponent has to use twice the amount of resources to remove your precious infantry than they otherwise would have ... AND you get more guns AND you get more mobility AND you get mobile cover that you can maneuver around the battlefield to place wherever it helps YOU the most. And furthermore, the more "worthless" each unit you own is, the less your opponent is going to prioritize it for destruction. If everything you have is "worthless", your opponent has wasted points on overkill. And that means you have the advantage.

Mech is not dead. Never has been, and never will be.

All that is changed is that 6e has made non-mech MSU army builds viable in addition to the mech army builds that have always been viable. Again, this is a good thing.

Just stop talking like new options automatically render more traditional options obsolete. There is no magic logical link there.

[DinoDoc]

That would be more readable without the broken BB code, number 6.

[TheDarkOne]

Thanks Number6, MSU isn't dead, just kind of grimy, and seen as less honourable than 10 man squads in rhinos however effective they are

 

 

Just picked up codex inquisition... 

 

Primary detachment Grey Knghts

 

Cotaez

 

3 Warrior Acolytes, Razorback w Psybolts - 62
3 Warrior Acolytes, Razorback w Psybolts - 62

3 Warrior Acolytes, Razorback w Psybolts - 62

3 Warrior Acolytes, Razorback w Psybolts - 62

3 Warrior Acolytes, Razorback w Psybolts - 62

3 Warrior Acolytes, Razorback w Psybolts - 62

 

inquistorial detachment

 

Inquistor - xx

 

3 Warrior Acolytes, Razorback w Psybolts - 62

3 Warrior Acolytes, Razorback w Psybolts - 62

3 Warrior Acolytes, Razorback w Psybolts - 62

 

Total - 683

 

9 razorbacks, lots of points to spend upgrading guns if you want and buff out the squads if you like, and you can take a whole slew of other stuff on this solid core of AV11. 

 

A tau broadside unit will kill 4 a turn though!

[number6]

Thanks Number6, MSU isn't dead, just kind of grimy, and seen as less honourable than 10 man squads in rhinos however effective they are

Sure, such lists can look "dull" and "spammy". In other words: stylistically, aesthetically displeasing. But subjective criticism should never be mistaken for objective criticism. (I'm not saying there isn't value to subjective judgements; we just can't confuse them with competitive gameplay judgements.)

A tau broadside unit will kill 4 a turn though!

Sure, that's technically possible. To get 4 per turn, you'd have to spend a minimum of 222 pts on 3 XV88s with target locks plus a missile drone. (No missile drone means a minimum of 4 XV88s across 2 Heavy Support slots.) The missile drone isn't even likely to hit, and whether it's heavy rail rifles or high-yield missiles, the odds aren't good that each XV88 with both hit AND destroy a vehicle without help. Thus, to get 4 hits -> 4 kills, it's more than likely the Tau player will be expending at least one other unit's worth of points on markerlight hits to boost BS and probably reduce some cover saves as well. (And if you really want to guarantee 4 hits -> 4 kills, you'll need four sources of marker lights!)

That's the bare minimum points investment to obtain that result; a real list would have A LOT more points involved (or just an incredible streak of dumb luck) to get such impressive results. (Who would ever take a single missile drone? And who would bunch up 3 XV88s with target locks into a single unit? More likely XV88s would be split among at least 2 force org slots, denying the Tau player much more help from their Heavy Support section.)

So yeah, that result is possible. But not likely, and therefore not really scary to consider.

But even if the Tau player gets 1st turn AND kills off 4 transports with just one unit's worth of effort ... your list isn't crippled! For starters, you've got more where that came from. AND we don't even know how you've spent the other 817 points! Are you certain that 4 razorbacks is going to be the Tau player's priority in the first turn or two of the game? And finally, the Tau player's spent more points than you anyway; you're still ahead.

I play Tau, so I know how much a Tau player who takes Broadsides depends on them to kill vehicles. The possibility for a single point of failure can be quite high, therefore. Prioritizing enemy Tau units is often quite easy. Prioritizing your proposed 1/2 list of MSU Inquisition is NOT so easy.

[TheDarkOne]

Thanks Number6, MSU isn't dead, just kind of grimy, and seen as less honourable than 10 man squads in rhinos however effective they are

Sure, such lists can look "dull" and "spammy". In other words: stylistically, aesthetically displeasing. But subjective criticism should never be mistaken for objective criticism. (I'm not saying there isn't value to subjective judgements; we just can't confuse them with competitive gameplay judgements.)

>>A tau broadside unit will kill 4 a turn though!

Sure, that's technically possible. To get 4 per turn, you'd have to spend a minimum of 222 pts on 3 XV88s with target locks plus a missile drone. (No missile drone means a minimum of 4 XV88s across 2 Heavy Support slots.) The missile drone isn't even likely to hit, and whether it's heavy rail rifles or high-yield missiles, the odds aren't good that each XV88 with both hit AND destroy a vehicle without help. Thus, to get 4 hits -> 4 kills, it's more than likely the Tau player will be expending at least one other unit's worth of points on markerlight hits to boost BS and probably reduce some cover saves as well. (And if you really want to guarantee 4 hits -> 4 kills, you'll need four sources of marker lights!)

3x broadside with high yield missile pods, sms and target lock, 6 missile drones...

the key is having them joined by the commander for twin linked ignores cover saves and tankhunter...

each broadside fires at 1 razorback, the missile drones at another, all twin linked all ignores cover and tankhunter...

I should have mentioned the commander!

anyway, i don't think i'll be fielding 9 razorbacks anytime soon!

This thread was originally started asking if GK are still viable in 6th.

I would respond with a resounding YES.

Cheers!

[Gentlemanloser]

Those three Inquisitorial Psybacks are 5 points cheaper. They aren't Psychic Pilots and don't have Fortitude.

Now, all you do is ally in IG for Scoring Units and more Vehicles.

(I'd also run Inquisitorial Chimera)

HQ: Coteaz (100)
Troop: Warrior Accolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (62)
Troop: Warrior Accolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (62)
Troop: Warrior Accolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (62)
Troop: Warrior Accolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (62)
Troop: Warrior Accolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (62)
Troop: Warrior Accolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (62)

HQ: Inquisitor (25)
Elite: Warrior Accolyte x3, Chimera, Psybolt Ammo (72)
Elite: Warrior Accolyte x3, Chimera, Psybolt Ammo (72)
Elite: Warrior Accolyte x3, Chimera, Psybolt Ammo (72)

HQ: CCS, Chimera (105)
Troop: PCS, Chimera (85)
Troop: Infantry Squad, Chimera (105)
Troop: Infantry Squad, Chimera (105)
Troop: Infantry Squad, Chimera (105)
Troop: Infantry Squad, Chimera (105)
Troop: Infantry Squad, Chimera (105)
Troop: PCS, Chimera (85)
Troop: Infantry Squad, Chimera (105)
Troop: Infantry Squad, Chimera (105)
Troop: Infantry Squad, Chimera (105)
Troop: Infantry Squad, Chimera (105)
Troop: Infantry Squad, Chimera (105)

Total: 2,038

Cut down to your required play size, and make room for any upgrades.

128 scoring bodies.

16!!! Chimera
6 Razors

 

And you'll be rolling more die than you'd ever like to! ;)

[number6]

3x broadside with high yield missile pods, sms and target lock, 6 missile drones...

the key is having them joined by the commander for twin linked ignores cover saves and tankhunter...

each broadside fires at 1 razorback, the missile drones at another, all twin linked all ignores cover and tankhunter...

I should have mentioned the commander!

Exactly my point about how much of an investment actually has to be made to have a reasonable chance of getting 4 hits -> 4 kills. (And even this massive points sink of a unit isn't likely to pull that off. 2 kills? Almost guaranteed. 3 kills? Reasonably likely. 4 kills? Still a long shot.)

This thread was originally started asking if GK are still viable in 6th.

I would respond with a resounding YES.

Agreed! And you don't even have to "spam" henchman to do it!

Most units in the GK codex still have their place in a solid list. FWIW, I took the following list to a tournament several months ago and would have won it if I wasn't playing against the White Dwarf-enhanced 4th edition Chaos Daemons. As you can see, it is neither "spammy" nor mech, but it does approach MSU in structure. (I always combat squad everything.)

HQ

[113 pts] OM Inquisitor: terminator armour, hammer, psycannon, psyker, servo skull

Troop

[235 pts] 10 Strikers: 2 psycannons, hammer, justicar w/master-crafted halberd

[50 pts] Razorback: psybolts

[235 pts] 10 Strikers: 2 psycannons, hammer, justicar w/master-crafted halberd

[50 pts] Razorback: psybolts

[430 pts] 10 Terminators: psycannon, incinerator, 4 hammers, 5 halberds, justicar w/master-crafted halberd

Fast Attack

[205 pts] Stormraven: TLLC, TLMM

Heavy Support

[160 pts] Dreadknight: heavy incinerator

[135 pts] Dreadnought: 2x TLAC, psybolts

[135 pts] Dreadnought: 2x TLAC, psybolts

Total: 1748 pts

[Reclusiarch Darius]

>mech isn't dead guiz

Oh sorry. I can't hear you over the sound of every DE, Eldar, Tau, Necron, IG and Ork player laughing simultaneously. They don't even need Allies to do it;

 

- DE Lance spam survived their edition update intact and its still their go-to build for beating Marine lists into the dirt. Then their 3 billion poison shots force your armour saves, while Blasterborn take out key targets (like your Terminators). DE suffer a lot against other xenos lists, but they're 100% perfectly evolved to murder Marines, especially elite Marines like Knights. Henchmen and Allies help us a little, but our core weaknesses of low model count and reliance on armour saves play right into their game plan. They're perfectly aware their paper mache transports won't survive any Shooting phase (nevermind ours), so unlike a Knight mech list, they have no delusions about what committing to an advance means. Turn 1 they sucker-punch you into a coma, if you get Turn 1 they hide and pray you miss/make cover saves a lot. 

- Eldar Serpent Spam is the most cancerous list out there right now, but it works. Boring, predictable and it'll get outclassed in time, but for now it's an absolute pain. Your Rhino chassis are dead Turn 1 without fail (even with smoke, they have Serpent shields to bust right through). Ravens may or may not survive the turn they come on, sometimes the Eldar player can't roll 6's to save his life, but he gets plenty of chances and free twin-linking if he tags you with one of four scatter laser shots. 

- Tau have ion cannons, ion accelerators, missile pods, railguns....not to mention their basic shooting is S5, so even their terrible Fire Warriors can and will glance your AV11 to death (they do nothing to Chimeras front AV, but eh). Mind you, they are utterly screwed when you make melee range (I have had my DK eat half an army alone), but getting there is like climbing a wall made of razor blades. Then their ablative Kroot screen tie you up for another turn, and they get another chance to mass Overwatch your face off. 

- Necrons were making other mech obsolete before 6th even brought in HP. Telsa destructors are everywhere, and on Troop transport Flyers as well. AB's are absurdly cheap AV13 gunboats that beat Razorbacks on price and offensive output. By contrast, their Living Metal and AV13 shields have survived the transition to 6th pretty well (Ghost Barges are still overpriced). Like Tau though, they are kinda boned in melee without Lords everywhere packing Mindlock+Rez Orbs. 

- Ork players will reliably kill two of your transports per Shooting phase, due to Lootaz. If he's a real nasty player, it'll be three. They can choke your approach with absurdly cheap infantry that can reliably murder all but your Terminators and Purifiers with ease. For Purifiers, he has Meganobz; for Terminators, he has the SAG and massed fire. Orks are actually pretty good in 6th, as they never relied on mech in their history (Trukk Spam was never good), Triple Battlewagon lists still bring a respectable number of Boyz to the table, and their game plan is to lose the Battlewagons in charge range of you. 

 

Mech is just too slow this edition as well. The new transport rules basically punish you at every step for loading anything into one. Reduced cover saves, HP, the general increase in massed fire over quality anti-tank...not to mention the most crippling blow of all in 6th, which is you can't claim objectives from inside a hull. 

 

Also, I should mention our mech is one of the weakest in the game. IG can at least bring a million Chimeras on the cheap and sorta fake out the build with numbers (and their cheap LR squadrons can bulk out the mech wall with firepower and tougher AV to chew through). We have expensive infantry. If you take Henchmen as mech you're at least matching IG in that contest of hulls on the board, but at that point it's not Knight mech, it's Coteaz mech. 

 

Taking combat squads in Razorbacks is asking to lose. You're dropping our already crippling lack of models down further, for maybe one turn of advancing 12" and not losing guys to enemy fire. You still arrive at half-strength, with overpriced gunboats one Broadside team away from being scrap metal. If you go mass Strikes in Rhinos, you're wasting their Derpstrike move and leaving yourself open to melee wipeout (Strikes can and will lose combats to equivalent costed melee units). 

 

Henchmen, IG, Necrons, Eldar all do the mech game much better. Knight mech was already a little risky in 5th, in 6th you're asking to lose. 

[lokyar]

i dont get why people think termi's are still a good idea, they are probably our worst unit. termi's, in 6th, are a giant AVOID.

PAGKSS are the way to go, they are pretty much the best troops-choice in the game (point for point)

[Gentlemanloser]

Then you face a Helldrake.

[lokyar]

Then you face a Helldrake.

 

thats ONE UNIT FROM ONE CODEX, there are maybe 2-3 units with aoe ap 3, there are WAAAAAAAAAAY more cheaper ways of getting big volumes of ap1 or ap 2, and thats your unit of termi's gone. there is a difference between one unit, which you can just kill, being able to kill a squad and 90% of the unit being able to seriously hurt your 400 point+ termi squad that cant do :cuss all since the enemy just runs away since you are slow as :cuss and cant actually get into combat without losing 80% of your squad. 

 

the only good terminator that is competetive are obi's and that is because they shot

[Gentlemanloser]

Or Rip Tides, or Wraith Knights.  Or another of the other high AP shooting in the game now.

 

GKT at least get their 5+ Invulnerable.

 

PAGK are no where near "the best troops-choice in the game (point for point)".

 

They die too easily for that.

[Valerian]

Haven't gotten the Inquisition eDex; what makes Coteaz in that better than his older incarnation in the GK Dex?

 

V

[lokyar]

Or Rip Tides, or Wraith Knights.  Or another of the other high AP shooting in the game now.

 

GKT at least get their 5+ Invulnerable.

 

PAGK are no where near "the best troops-choice in the game (point for point)".

 

They die too easily for that.

and termi's are a lot slower unless you buy a 200+ point transport and termi's are almost twice as expensive as pagkss.

also assault is NOT GOOD in 6th since youll just get shot EVEN MORE and since the nerfs in assault termi's are just not even close to competetive. the prevelance of ap 2 plasma weaponry and grav weaponry also doesnt help.

 

there is seriously NO defending termi's in 6th

[Gentlemanloser]

Slower?  Sorry, both move 6".  Both have Transport Options.  Both can DS.

 

The internal balance of the units is bad, Either PAGK need to cost more, or GKT need to be cheaper.

 

But TDA over PA is a no brianer this edition.

 

TDA has all the benefits.  The inbuilt Invulnerable save (as Cover doesn't matter any more).  The immunity to the vast majority of Power Weapons.  Relentless.

 

PA offers very little in comparison.

 

Neither GKT nor PAGK are anywhere near the best troops int he game.  *That's* an undefendable comment.

 

 

Haven't gotten the Inquisition eDex; what makes Coteaz in that better than his older incarnation in the GK Dex?

 

Battle Brother status basically.

 

And if you want him in your GK list, you can take him anyway, without needing a troop squad, or impacting your ally choice.

 

The only distinction is where you want (and how many) your scoring Henchmen to come from.

[Valerian]

So, if I don't use allies, and play mostly pure Grey Knights, then it doesn't matter if I take Coteaz from the GK Dex or the new =I= Dex?

 

V