Grey Knights: How Competitive are they in 6th?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

i dont get why people think termi's are still a good idea, they are probably our worst unit. termi's, in 6th, are a giant AVOID.

PAGKSS are the way to go, they are pretty much the best troops-choice in the game (point for point)

Wow. What does a unit have to be to qualify as good for you? Lets make a quick list of Knight Termie advantages;

- Relentless

- Immune to non-AP2 melee

- Good at melee and shooting (slightly better at melee)

- Has 2+ armour and 5+ invul, which is about as good saves as you can get on infantry

- Derpstrike (it has its uses)

- 'Hammerhand' and force weapons default

- 5+ Deny roll (starting to become a real bonus against stuff like ScreamerStar, Eldar and IG)

- Standard Marine advantages (4's statline, high Leadership, ATKSNF, Combat Squads for maximum Force Org efficiency)

- Free weapon swaps between halberds and hammers

- Storm bolters, psycannons and incinerators as ranged output

 

(drum roll)

 

and they're scoring by default. No special characters or other restrictions, your most elite assault unit is also your primary Troops choice. Marine players were already jealous of Deathwing, we don't even need a special Captain to unlock anything in the list. 

 

If you think scoring psychic Terminators are a bad Troops choice, you need to play xenos armies or IG for a bit. They'd literally murder you if it meant GW gave them a unit 50% as flexible, durable and lethal as scoring Troop Terminators. There is a reason xenos and to some extent IG armies (the Blob has been nerfed into the ground now) are increasingly outsourcing their scoring to other races as Allies. 

 

>but muh gunlines!1!!

 

So? 6th edition is bloody and favours shooting, what else is new? In a firefight, there are very few units tougher and more lethal than Terminators. You need rare AP2 weaponry (AP3 is much more prevalent by comparison). Terminators are by no means invulnerable (Riptides, grumble grumble), but they at least can save against anything short of a vortex grenade. Strike Knights and Purifiers have to pray the enemy didn't bring an AP3 weapon and/or cover ignoring. 

 

Melee still matters. The way you beat shooting armies is by swamping their gunline with melee units that will eat them all, even depleted. I'm not exaggerating when I say that one Terminator will go through an entire squad of lesser infantry. Terminators will even trade reasonably with enemy melee specialists, which for a Troops choice is a serious deal. 

 

So, if I don't use allies, and play mostly pure Grey Knights, then it doesn't matter if I take Coteaz from the GK Dex or the new =I= Dex?

 

Nope. And the added bonus is the Mk2 Coteaz from the Inquisition codex doesn't eat a HQ slot. So you can take double 'Prescience' Inquisitors and him as well, for three re-roll+Stubborn attachments. 

[Gentlemanloser]

So, if I don't use allies, and play mostly pure Grey Knights, then it

doesn't matter if I take Coteaz from the GK Dex or the new =I= Dex?

 

The only impact is if you wanted Coteaz to be your sole HQ and take 4-6 units of Henchmen.

 

 

Nope. And the added bonus is the Mk2 Coteaz from the Inquisition codex

doesn't eat a HQ slot. So you can take double 'Prescience' Inquisitors

and him as well, for three re-roll+Stubborn attachments.

 

Triple! ;)

 

Add in the third from the second extra free HQ slot from Codex: Inquisition.

[Rommel44]

 

 

i dont get why people think termi's are still a good idea, they are probably our worst unit. termi's, in 6th, are a giant AVOID.

PAGKSS are the way to go, they are pretty much the best troops-choice in the game (point for point)

Wow. What does a unit have to be to qualify as good for you? Lets make a quick list of Knight Termie advantages;

- Relentless

- Immune to non-AP2 melee

- Good at melee and shooting (slightly better at melee)

- Has 2+ armour and 5+ invul, which is about as good saves as you can get on infantry

- Derpstrike (it has its uses)

- 'Hammerhand' and force weapons default

- 5+ Deny roll (starting to become a real bonus against stuff like ScreamerStar, Eldar and IG)

- Standard Marine advantages (4's statline, high Leadership, ATKSNF, Combat Squads for maximum Force Org efficiency)

- Free weapon swaps between halberds and hammers

- Storm bolters, psycannons and incinerators as ranged output

 

(drum roll)

 

and they're scoring by default. No special characters or other restrictions, your most elite assault unit is also your primary Troops choice. Marine players were already jealous of Deathwing, we don't even need a special Captain to unlock anything in the list. 

 

If you think scoring psychic Terminators are a bad Troops choice, you need to play xenos armies or IG for a bit. They'd literally murder you if it meant GW gave them a unit 50% as flexible, durable and lethal as scoring Troop Terminators. There is a reason xenos and to some extent IG armies (the Blob has been nerfed into the ground now) are increasingly outsourcing their scoring to other races as Allies. 

 

>but muh gunlines!1!!

 

So? 6th edition is bloody and favours shooting, what else is new? In a firefight, there are very few units tougher and more lethal than Terminators. You need rare AP2 weaponry (AP3 is much more prevalent by comparison). Terminators are by no means invulnerable (Riptides, grumble grumble), but they at least can save against anything short of a vortex grenade. Strike Knights and Purifiers have to pray the enemy didn't bring an AP3 weapon and/or cover ignoring. 

 

Melee still matters. The way you beat shooting armies is by swamping their gunline with melee units that will eat them all, even depleted. I'm not exaggerating when I say that one Terminator will go through an entire squad of lesser infantry. Terminators will even trade reasonably with enemy melee specialists, which for a Troops choice is a serious deal. 

> 

So, if I don't use allies, and play mostly pure Grey Knights, then it doesn't matter if I take Coteaz from the GK Dex or the new =I= Dex?

 

Nope. And the added bonus is the Mk2 Coteaz from the Inquisition codex doesn't eat a HQ slot. So you can take double 'Prescience' Inquisitors and him as well, for three re-roll+Stubborn attachments. 

 

 

So if Im following this correctly, if I take Coteaz and a TDA Inquistor w/Deamon Hammer and Psycannon from the GK book and I use the Inquisition book for my allies, I can take 2x HQ's from the Inquisition book, meaning I could have potentially 3x Inquisitors in TDA w/Deamon Hammer's and Psycannons on top of Coteaz correct? If thats the case then that is pretty awesome to say the least. But do I need  to take a henchman squad per Inquisitor or is that not required?

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup.

 

And no, no need to take any henchmen squads.

[Rommel44]

Sounds like an idea to consider. However, recently I had a game I was able to play test a list in so I was able to see how GK's perform in this edition. I ran the Draigowing
unit, however for there Grand Strategy I gave the unit the scout ability, and I was able to deploy pretty close to my opponents battle-line (was playing Tau w/Riptide spam). Needless to say they soaked a lot of fire, however while he was so worried about them, he forgot about my Dreadknights and other units, who just annihilated the Tau Pathfinders and all of his troops, and I managed to pull out a solid win again one of the more nasty Tau lists out there (this is a way to beat a Tau Riptide spam list fyi). Granted it's not exactly what I want to do, as I usually don't like putting so many points in a unit, however it is a good way to at least play in high point games until I can get more models for my army and then expand.

Please keep the advice coming guys. Currently what I have in my possession to get my army started is:

* Draigo

*Coteaz

*10x Terminators/Paladins (3x Demon Hammer, SB, 2x Psycannon, Halberd, 4x Halberd, 1x Banner, SB. Whole unit always takes psybolt ammo.

*2x Stormraven Gunships w/Multi-Melta, Assault Cannon, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammo.

Currently am boroing some other stuff to represent while I try to decide what I want to do but not a bad start so far in my opinion.

[lokyar]

 

 

i dont get why people think termi's are still a good idea, they are probably our worst unit. termi's, in 6th, are a giant AVOID.

PAGKSS are the way to go, they are pretty much the best troops-choice in the game (point for point)

Wow. What does a unit have to be to qualify as good for you? Lets make a quick list of Knight Termie advantages;

- Relentless

- Immune to non-AP2 melee

- Good at melee and shooting (slightly better at melee)

- Has 2+ armour and 5+ invul, which is about as good saves as you can get on infantry

- Derpstrike (it has its uses)

- 'Hammerhand' and force weapons default

- 5+ Deny roll (starting to become a real bonus against stuff like ScreamerStar, Eldar and IG)

- Standard Marine advantages (4's statline, high Leadership, ATKSNF, Combat Squads for maximum Force Org efficiency)

- Free weapon swaps between halberds and hammers

- Storm bolters, psycannons and incinerators as ranged output

and that omly for 40 points a model, which means it costs twice as much as a pagkss guy. and they cant sweep. they cant take dedicated transports that are cheap. they get pooped on by every other unit because you they are so few and a good unit of will termi's easily take up 400+ points (derpstriking is suicidal generally so you need transports). current meta is very anti-deathstar. they are worse at shooting then PAGK but are good at cc.

 

ok about CC, CC is not good in 6th, you are lucky if you get into CC with more then 3 termi's (if you have a 10 termi ds squad), if you get in CC at all. you cant play termi's as competetive as pagk since termi's get focussed since they are 30% of your army.

[johnyocum]

and that omly for 40 points a model, which means it costs twice as much as a pagkss guy. and they cant sweep. they cant take dedicated transports that are cheap. they get pooped on by every other unit because you they are so few and a good unit of will termi's easily take up 400+ points (derpstriking is suicidal generally so you need transports). current meta is very anti-deathstar. they are worse at shooting then PAGK but are good at cc.

 

How is a Terminator worse in shooting that a Power Armor guy?  They're both BS 4, have the same weapon selection for the army list across the board, squads are the same size (meaning the same number of shots), and that Relentless gives you more shots from a Psycannon if you bring it.

 

I have a GK army that uses 2 Strike Squads and a Terminator Squad as my troops, so I can tell you for a fact that both squads have the same shooting options and the same shooting stat.

[Quozzo]

 

 

 

 

i dont get why people think termi's are still a good idea, they are probably our worst unit. termi's, in 6th, are a giant AVOID.

PAGKSS are the way to go, they are pretty much the best troops-choice in the game (point for point)

Wow. What does a unit have to be to qualify as good for you? Lets make a quick list of Knight Termie advantages;

- Relentless

- Immune to non-AP2 melee

- Good at melee and shooting (slightly better at melee)

- Has 2+ armour and 5+ invul, which is about as good saves as you can get on infantry

- Derpstrike (it has its uses)

- 'Hammerhand' and force weapons default

- 5+ Deny roll (starting to become a real bonus against stuff like ScreamerStar, Eldar and IG)

- Standard Marine advantages (4's statline, high Leadership, ATKSNF, Combat Squads for maximum Force Org efficiency)

- Free weapon swaps between halberds and hammers

- Storm bolters, psycannons and incinerators as ranged output

 

(drum roll)

 

and they're scoring by default. No special characters or other restrictions, your most elite assault unit is also your primary Troops choice. Marine players were already jealous of Deathwing, we don't even need a special Captain to unlock anything in the list. 

 

If you think scoring psychic Terminators are a bad Troops choice, you need to play xenos armies or IG for a bit. They'd literally murder you if it meant GW gave them a unit 50% as flexible, durable and lethal as scoring Troop Terminators. There is a reason xenos and to some extent IG armies (the Blob has been nerfed into the ground now) are increasingly outsourcing their scoring to other races as Allies. 

 

>but muh gunlines!1!!

 

So? 6th edition is bloody and favours shooting, what else is new? In a firefight, there are very few units tougher and more lethal than Terminators. You need rare AP2 weaponry (AP3 is much more prevalent by comparison). Terminators are by no means invulnerable (Riptides, grumble grumble), but they at least can save against anything short of a vortex grenade. Strike Knights and Purifiers have to pray the enemy didn't bring an AP3 weapon and/or cover ignoring. 

 

Melee still matters. The way you beat shooting armies is by swamping their gunline with melee units that will eat them all, even depleted. I'm not exaggerating when I say that one Terminator will go through an entire squad of lesser infantry. Terminators will even trade reasonably with enemy melee specialists, which for a Troops choice is a serious deal. 

> 

 

So, if I don't use allies, and play mostly pure Grey Knights, then it doesn't matter if I take Coteaz from the GK Dex or the new =I= Dex?

Nope. And the added bonus is the Mk2 Coteaz from the Inquisition codex doesn't eat a HQ slot. So you can take double 'Prescience' Inquisitors and him as well, for three re-roll+Stubborn attachments.

 

 

 

So if Im following this correctly, if I take Coteaz and a TDA Inquistor w/Deamon Hammer and Psycannon from the GK book and I use the Inquisition book for my allies, I can take 2x HQ's from the Inquisition book, meaning I could have potentially 3x Inquisitors in TDA w/Deamon Hammer's and Psycannons on top of Coteaz correct? If thats the case then that is pretty awesome to say the least. But do I need  to take a henchman squad per Inquisitor or is that not required?

 

 

Don't forget that C:I doesn't take up your allied slot, so you could ally in some Red Hunters for more Battle Brothers psykers, although the two mandatory troop choices may cripple you more than the advantage of taking them.

[lokyar]

 

and that omly for 40 points a model, which means it costs twice as much as a pagkss guy. and they cant sweep. they cant take dedicated transports that are cheap. they get pooped on by every other unit because you they are so few and a good unit of will termi's easily take up 400+ points (derpstriking is suicidal generally so you need transports). current meta is very anti-deathstar. they are worse at shooting then PAGK but are good at cc.

 

How is a Terminator worse in shooting that a Power Armor guy?  They're both BS 4, have the same weapon selection for the army list across the board, squads are the same size (meaning the same number of shots), and that Relentless gives you more shots from a Psycannon if you bring it.

 

I have a GK army that uses 2 Strike Squads and a Terminator Squad as my troops, so I can tell you for a fact that both squads have the same shooting options and the same shooting stat.

termi's are worse since pagk have twice as many shots

[johnyocum]

How do the power armor guys get more shots?  Squad size being equal, they put out the same number of shots with everything, except the psycannon, where the Terminators get the higher rate because of relentless.

 

Storm Bolter = Assault 2

Psycannon = Assault 2 OR Heavy 4

Incinerator = Template

Psilencer = Heavy 6

 

I'm looking at page 91 of the codex, and there is nothing different between the shooting options for either squad, and the weapon profiles come from the chart on page 96 of the codex.  The FAQ doesn't change any of those weapons, either, nor did 6th edition's release.

 

 

Also, another thing to consider for Terminators being decent as the already Troops choice that they are:  Bringing anything but a Storm bolter on a power armor guy loses the nemesis force weapon.  Bringing it on a Terminator does not lose the force weapon.

[lokyar]

you run 5 termi's, i run 10 pagks 10/5=2

 

there maths

[Gentlemanloser]

You run 10 PAGK, I run 28 Stormbolter Accolytes.

 

56 shots to your 20.

[lokyar]

You run 10 PAGK, I run 28 Stormbolter Accolytes.

 

56 shots to your 20.

well thats a waste, might as well run normal bolters

[Gentlemanloser]

18" to 24".

 

I'd rather get the two shots at 24" with Accolytes, than having to have them in Rapid Fire range...

 

Anyway, if you're going on number of shots alone, obviously Warrior Accolytes beat PAGK (20) and GKT (10) beat them both hands down.

[lokyar]

18" to 24".

 

I'd rather get the two shots at 24" with Accolytes, than having to have them in Rapid Fire range...

 

Anyway, if you're going on number of shots alone, obviously Warrior Accolytes beat PAGK (20) and GKT (10) beat them both hands down.

im not going on number of shots.

before you reply at least have the decency to read my arguments and not just start saying i said :cuss i havent said

[DinoDoc]

If you are playing with Terms, you already know the limitations of the unit (or should), and are simply trying to get the most use out of them within those parameters. I'm still peeved we lost Storm Shields when we had them in Codex Daemonhunters though.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

im not going on number of shots.

before you reply at least have the decency to read my arguments and not just start saying i said :cuss i havent said

 

 

termi's are worse since pagk have twice as many shots

 

Post #34

[lokyar]

im not going on number of shots.

before you reply at least have the decency to read my arguments and not just start saying i said i havent said

>termi's are worse since pagk have twice as many shots

Post #34

*sigh* are you a kid or are you just straightup retarded? LOOK AT THE DAMN FULL POST, DONT JUST POST RANDOM :cuss

[number6]

>mech isn't dead guiz

 

Oh sorry. I can't hear you over the sound of every DE, Eldar, Tau, Necron, IG and Ork player laughing simultaneously. They don't even need Allies to do it;

I'ma just repeat myself then.

 

"How does it hurt to spend a pittance of points to get more guns AND a box that your opponent has to bust open first before being able to target the delicate infantry bunkered inside? This is a bad thing HOW, exactly? Your opponent has to use twice the amount of resources to remove your precious infantry than they otherwise would have ... AND you get more guns AND you get more mobility AND you get mobile cover that you can maneuver around the battlefield to place wherever it helps YOU the most."

[Gentlemanloser]

 

*sigh* are you a kid or are you just straightup retarded? LOOK AT THE DAMN FULL POST, DONT JUST POST RANDOM :cuss

 

I'll give you a chance to step back, take a breath and chill, before I report your post.

[Rommel44]

Sounds like its a common debate, whenever I should run Terminators or PAGK as troops, so I will be sure to consider my options. However can we stay on topic, as I need help with building a list and debating about this is meant for anotehr thread lol. Anyways, I will repeat: Sounds like an idea to consider. However, recently I had a game I was able to play test a list in so I was able to see how GK's perform in this edition. I ran the Draigowing unit, however for there Grand Strategy I gave the unit the scout ability, and I was able to deploy pretty close to my opponents battle-line (was playing Tau w/Riptide spam). Needless to say they soaked a lot of fire, however while he was so worried about them, he forgot about my Dreadknights and other units, who just annihilated the Tau Pathfinders and all of his troops, and I managed to pull out a solid win again one of the more nasty Tau lists out there (this is a way to beat a Tau Riptide spam list fyi). Granted it's not exactly what I want to do, as I usually don't like putting so many points in a unit, however it is a good way to at least play in high point games until I can get more models for my army and then expand.

 

[lokyar]

*sigh* are you a kid or are you just straightup retarded? LOOK AT THE DAMN FULL POST, DONT JUST POST RANDOM

I'll give you a chance to step back, take a breath and chill, before I report your post.

you can report my post all you want, im fed up with you tbh, you dont even BOTHER to read the post and find out the context, the only reasons i can think of that your doing it is

A: your just plain stupid.

B: your a kid

[Terrified Templar]

Ok so before something serious breaks out here let's all try to remember that this topic is for helping a new player, not debating the facts between GK Strike squads and GK termies. Also Gentleman Loser, what Lokyar is trying to point out is that your unit of terminators costs TWICE as much as his unit of PAGKs so before you compare number of shots and so forth it is wise to take into consideration the cost of each unit before you start forming an opinion.

[Gentlemanloser]

There are two strands of debate here.

 

Point for point comparison.  And unit per unit comparison.

 

As one unit to another, GKT have the same shooting output as PAGK.

 

Point for point, PAGK double the amount of shots GKT have.  If you're looking at that, then SB Accolytes have 2.6 times the shooting that PAGK do (or 5.6 times that of GKT), point for point.

 

Johnyocum was focusing on a unit to unit comparison, while Lokyar was on point per point.

 

By the by, unit to unit, SB Accolytes also have more shooting than either GKT or PAGK.  At 24 shots compared to 20.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I SUGGEST EVERYONE SETTLE DOWN AND CHILL!

 

AHEM... obviously tempers are starting to get riled so everyone settle down, and discuss rationally like adults.  If things continue to downgrade I'll melta liberally so... ;)

 

You have been warned.