Grey Knights: How Competitive are they in 6th?

[Grand Master Caloth]

I don't think they came through right, but I'm thinking they are what I'm looking for

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

RE: "You can run." You can disembark and still run, you know. Any transport, therefore, gives you more mobility than otherwise. And therefore does save a full enemy turn of shooting. I fail to see any way you can deny this fact. For my money, that's worth 35 pts every time. We spend a lot more than that to protect ourselves against enemy shooting in other ways. Seems like a bargain to me.

Of course you can. However, there is little reason to run with Knights, unless you're out of weapon range (which unless you deployed really far back from the front edge of your DZ is unusual, shouldn't be the case for more than 1-2 turns). And no, as I keep pointing out, it doesn't protect you from enemy shooting. They can easily wreck your transport and still have firepower leftover to cause serious carnage to the squad stumbling out of the wreckage. Also, our Rhinos are 40, you forgot the 'Fortitude' tax. 

 

RE: "Stick to GK options, please." Everything I said about additional weaponry, mobility, terrain, etc., obviously applies to the razorback. For 50 pts, you get 3 twin-linked S6 shots -- one of the more versatile weapons available -- and at a bargain-basement price. I do not think that an additional 2.5 PAGKs (or 1.25 GKTs, or .73 Paladins, or ...) are necessarily a better buy for the points. Obviously, it will depend on your overall list structure. As I said waaaay earlier, MSU mech isn't the only way to play GKs (or any other army), but it IS a valid one. And it remains valid precisely because of the value proposition it represents.

I don't know why you'd take the bare-bones Razor. 50pts for that kind of firepower is mediocre to say the least. Also, Razorbacks can only take a combat squad at best, so you're further reducing your bodycount when you get de-meched and have to start fighting the infantry fight. Not to mention the unlock cost is high compared to most other races (100pts before you upgrade the squad in any way), and it's absurdly high compared to Henchmen or IG. As I mentioned before, I think Henchmen Razors and Chimeras are workable because the premium you pay is lower (12pts), so you can have your mech core and still have points for infantry and support as well. I still don't think its a strong list, but it's a damn sight better than trying to fit a square plug into a round hole, which is what mech Knights is ultimately. 

Knights always struggle to put boots on the field. I'd go as far as saying it's our biggest weakness in 6th. I see no reason to take non-scoring vehicles that give up easy First Blood/VP, that force me to either take smaller squads or split up my already low model count, and which don't bring meaningfully better firepower (the extra range of 36" is nice, but S6 has to be spammed to become a problem, and we're constrained by points in doing so). I'd definitely rate a GKT as being a better investment than a Rhino for same points. I'd even rate a GKT with psy-bolt as roughly better than a Razorback (fudging a bit here but you get the idea). Two Strikes Knights are definitely better than a Rhino, and three are definitely better than a Razorback (again fudging a bit, as there is a 10pt difference). 

 

 

You bring just two or maybe three razorbacks, you're not playing MSU mech. Of course your vehicles will get destroyed early. That was true in 5th edition, too, so there should be absolutely nothing new about this proposition. In the end, nothing really has changed that much. Again, as I acknowledged way at the beginning, vehicles are, on the whole, easier to destroy in 6th than in 5th edition. But so is infantry! Everything is easier to kill in 6th edition than in 5th edition. This would necessarily be true if the only new factor introduced was the reduced cover save. But there are other reasons both vehicles and infantry are easier to kill. (Glancing hull damage for vehicles, the massive increase in low-AP and cover-denying firepower at reduced points costs when talking about infantry.)

No, Hull Points are a quantum leap forward in how to kill vehicles. Prior to that change, only 'true' damage could kill you, you could infinitely stunlock a vehicle and it wouldn't die (hence why 'Fortitude' was relevant back then, as it got the vehicle moving again for a small risk), 'Fortitude' will still sometimes be useful, but more often your vehicle is dead rather than stun-locked. 

 

Infantry murdering has crept up, but that affects everyone. We're fortunate in being Marines, and even more fortunate in having Troop Terminators. Riptides will get nerfed at some point (or hopefully markerlights will, or that retarded MSS+CCN combo), until then we need to persevere like everyone else. Allies, Henchmen etc all offer ways to bolster our Knights numbers and come back from heavy casualties like an Ork or IG army would. 3+ and 2+ saves are still good, they're just no longer as powerful due to the general increase in dakka and AP2 options. 

 

In the end, my issue is that you are solely focused on the "easy to kill vehicles" side of the equation, and talk as though entirely oblivious to the "easy to kill infantry" side of the equation. I know that can't be true, and therefor I question the validity of your assertions. 

Well we're talking about the validity of mech, hence my focus on that side of things. As far as infantry goes, everyone knows shooting is king and will remain so for at least another edition (unless melee and infantry movement get fixed in some unforseen way in 7th. Fixed Run moves might do it, along with a return to fixed charge ranges, not this 2D6 rubbish). Knights aren't totally screwed over by 6th in that regard, we have dakka ourselves, but it means we can't do foot lists at all nowadays. Deepstrike, Outflank and Ravens offer ways to bypass the insane killzone that Tau and other shooty lists create in 6th, but none of those options are foolproof and I readily admit Knights are on the backfoot in a lot of shootouts. We're expensive and low model count, it's a real Achilles heel to exploit. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I don't know why you'd take the bare-bones Razor. 50pts for that kind of firepower is mediocre to say the least.

 

It's really not.

 

TL S6 shots.  Can threaten the vast majority of units in the game, including Fliers.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Hate to say it, Darius, even tho i do not run them, i never underestimate or undervalue TL S6, or even any of the other options.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I'd even rate a GKT with psy-bolt as roughly better than a Razorback (fudging a bit here but you get the idea). Two Strikes Knights are definitely better than a Rhino, and three are definitely better than a Razorback (again fudging a bit, as there is a 10pt difference).

 

STOP!

 

Mathhammer time! ;)

 

GKT versus Psybolt Razorback (10 point difference).

 

Shooting: 2 S4 shots, versus 3 Twin Linked S6 shots.

CC: 2 x S8/S10 AP2 I1 attacks, versus Tank Shock.

Durability: 16.6% chance to die versus any shooting attack that doesn't have AP1/2, versus Immunity to S5 or below weapons.  With 3 'wounds'.

 

Verdict: Razorback hands down.

 

3 x Strikes versus Psybolt Razorback (10 points difference, the other way)

 

Shooting: 6 S4 shots, versus 3 Twin Linked S6 shots. (6 versus 3 TL is roughly equal, S6 wins here)

CC: 3 x S4 AP3 I4 attacks, versus Tank Shock.

Durabilty: 33.3% chance to lose a wound facing any shooting attack that doesn't have AP1/2/3, versus Immunity to S5 or below Weapons.  Both have 3 wounds.

 

Verdit: A lot closer this time, but the Razor still has the upper hand.  Slightly.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

It's really not.

 

TL S6 shots.  Can threaten the vast majority of units in the game, including Fliers.

Yes, I know that. My follow up was though, how many Razors do you expect to have? How many firing at the same target will you need to kill something? Etc etc. Serpent Spam works because each vehicle is generating ~7 shots apiece. With Henchmen mech or even IG, you're still able to squeeze a fair number of hulls into a list. But Knight mech? Every squad is 100pts. before melee upgrades, psycannons, psybolts etc. That means your ability to take enough hulls to generate meaningful firepower is limited, and you'll lose in a trade-off situation against true S6/7 spam lists. 

 

versus Immunity to S5 or below weapons.  With 3 'wounds'.

AV11 is not immune to S5, 6's can glance it down (as unlikely as it may be). Minor quibble, your analysis is otherwise spot on. 

 

Infantry have abilities beyond the raw stats you quote however. Infantry can hide behind LoS blocking terrain, can hide in melee, can make much better use of cover (for those few lists left in the meta that don't just flat-out Ignore Cover), not to mention infantry can contest and if Troops can score objectives (6th really pushes objectives in missions, outside of 'Purge', which you'll lose anyway as mech bleeds KP with ease). Vehicles enjoy zero of those advantages, Leadership immunity is nice as is immunity to most small arms, but they still die to the extremely common S6/7 spam that permeates shooting lists at the moment. 

 

I want to be clear here. I'm not saying Razors are a bad gunboat, I think they're adequate (Chimeras are arguably better but I think we'd need another thread for that discussion). My point of contention is that;

Knights do not make a good mech list, due to their high squad cost and their lack of synergy with mech

Henchmen? Sure

Eldar? They're the kings of it

IG? Weaker than ever, but still dirt-cheap and an option they'll consider more and more now that the Blob has been nerfed into oblivion

Crons? It's their default build

BA/normal Marines? Debatable, I wouldn't recommend it (I think Drop Pod or Biker are stronger builds by far), but it's doable when your base squad price is significantly lower than Knights

 

Our strength is our infantry, always has been. We all got into Knights because of the shiny psyker Marines, not the Henchmen humans or the vehicles (which are, barring stuff like the DK, pretty much straight copies of Marine standard issue). Trying a terrible min-max mech list is not only  weak in 6th, it's also diluting our strengths and further exposing our major weakness (lack of staying power). I'd suggest people look elsewhere if they want to do mech lists. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

AV11 is not immune to S5, 6's can glance it down (as unlikely as it may be). Minor quibble, your analysis is otherwise spot on.

 

Bad GL!

 

Rhino's are not AV12 on the Front! :P

 

*cough*

 

Make that immune to S4 or below weapons. ;)

 

Our strength is our Infantry, and the weapons they bring.  Force Weapons for CC and Psycannons.

 

We get best use from footslooging Psycannons, and maximising the amount we can bring.

 

110 points get us 5 dudes and 1 Psycannon.  You can get 3 'dudes' and a TL Psycannon for 25 less points by purchasing an AC Razor with Psybolt Ammo.

 

But that's not the base Razor. ;)

 

I'd rather have the S6 HB version, as it's cheaper and has a greater range band.  While still being able to threaten the majority of opponents units.

[number6]

160 pts for 5 Space marines with power weapons, a pyscannon, and a razorback with TL S6 heavy bolter. And you say "we're too expensive".

That, and this quote:

Quote

I don't know why you'd take the bare-bones Razor. 50pts for that kind of firepower is mediocre to say the least. Also, Razorbacks can only take a combat squad at best, so you're further reducing your bodycount when you get de-meched and have to start fighting the infantry fight.

and this one:

Quote

They can easily wreck your transport and still have firepower leftover to cause serious carnage to the squad stumbling out of the wreckage.

and your dismissal of the efficacy of cheap GK razorbacks ...

... really demonstrate to me that you do not understand MSU. Multiple. SMALL. Units. GKs can indeed do it, and do it quite well, and as GL has demonstrated in a concurrent topic, can even do it without henchman (or even Crowe!).

If it takes a minimum of two units' worth of shooting -- one requiring anti-armour fire -- to destroy a unit of infantry, how is this not TWICE as many resources to accomplish a singular goal as I have said all along? For the cost of 2 GKs (if using Rhinos) or 2.5 GKs (if using razorbacks) you have significantly increased their survivability because you have forced your opponent to spend twice the amount of effort killing them. It does not take twice the amount of effort to kill 2 additional power-armoured marines. The same enemy unit that can gun down 5 guys can very likely kill 2 more without much difficulty anyway. However, forcing an opponent to devote two of his units to destroy one of yours must be considered A Good Thing.

[zyl-]

I'm not sure why this wasn't mentioned in the endless debate, but transports can reliably move 18" in a turn due to flat out moves. When the transport blows, half your guys take wounds and 1/3 aren't saved. In a unit of 5 bodies, that could very easily equal 0 wounds. But wait, you get to do an emergency disembark move, which gets you even closer. Since we are talking about facing armies that pretty much require a mele presence to beat, a turn 1 24" move is actually quite an impressive way to pressure your opponent.

 

Now for the bad things.. you don't shoot turn 1 (but night fighting usually makes that useless anyhow.. and GK can't shoot all that far truth be told), and it relies on transports getting blown up to get a turn 2 charge. Of course any transports that don't blow get a nice round of shooting turn 2, and let's just be honest and say you are expecting to lose a transport or 3 on turn 1 in this exercise.

 

It may not be the most glorious strategy, but it is a workable idea.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

110 points get us 5 dudes and 1 Psycannon.  You can get 3 'dudes' and a TL Psycannon for 25 less points by purchasing an AC Razor with Psybolt Ammo.

 

You still need a squad to unlock the Razorback. Hence, the true cost is 150pts+, because you have to pay for the base 5 Strikes and the basic Razorback. Upgrades quickly add up on either. That's why I prefer getting more dudes, because once you head into the 200pt range (which Purifiers easily do, and Strikes are not far behind, assuming 5-man with Razorback), you might as well get a full squad or another combat squad. 

 

 

I'd rather have the S6 HB version, as it's cheaper and has a greater range band.  While still being able to threaten the majority of opponents units.

 

I'm inclined to agree. The AC actually reduces your threat range and pumps up your cost, and all you get in return is a chance at Rending and +1 Strength (nice benefits, but expensive). 

 

and your dismissal of the efficacy of cheap GK razorbacks ...

 

... really demonstrate to me that you do not understand MSU. Multiple. SMALL. Units. GKs can indeed do it, and do it quite well, and as GL has demonstrated in a concurrent topic, can even do it without henchman (or even Crowe!).

I understand MSU perfectly well. BA perfected the build back when they dropped in 5th. My point of contention is that MSU is a terrible idea with Knights. 

 

If it takes a minimum of two units' worth of shooting -- one requiring anti-armour fire -- to destroy a unit of infantry, how is this not TWICE as many resources to accomplish a singular goal as I have said all along? For the cost of 2 GKs (if using Rhinos) or 2.5 GKs (if using razorbacks) you have significantly increased their survivability because you have forced your opponent to spend twice the amount of effort killing them. It does not take twice the amount of effort to kill 2 additional power-armoured marines. The same enemy unit that can gun down 5 guys can very likely kill 2 more without much difficulty anyway. However, forcing an opponent to devote two of his units to destroy one of yours must be considered A Good Thing. 

Well, as you both have agreed previously, you don't need actual anti-tank anymore (you still take it as insurance against AV13 stuff, but Landraiders have gone the way of the dodo competively), S6/7 spam works fine for blowing up AV11 due to glancing down HP. Yeah, they have to blow up the transport first, but the enemy having twice the units you do is not exactly uncommon. Even other mech lists are likely to have more than you, probably not twice as many, but still more. 

 

I dunno if its a good thing or a bad thing. I'd call it standard practise. Since I dunno...4th? The general rule is you focus down a unit until they're either wiped or no longer worth worrying about. Hence, you'll typically lose whole squads, not bits out of each unit. People having been fighting 3+ save armies for a while now, they know that unless they focus down your units one by one each Shooting phase, you'll hit with mauled but still effective units. The principle applies to horde armies too actually, as they block their own friendly units from reaching you, so you just focus down the first 2 blobs of Orks or whatever (as all the other stuff can't get around their own frontline to threaten you). I do the same to opponents, I focus down their scoring to pull ahead on objectives, while trying to deal with their problem units. 

 

I'm not sure why this wasn't mentioned in the endless debate, but transports can reliably move 18" in a turn due to flat out moves. When the transport blows, half your guys take wounds and 1/3 aren't saved. In a unit of 5 bodies, that could very easily equal 0 wounds. But wait, you get to do an emergency disembark move, which gets you even closer. Since we are talking about facing armies that pretty much require a mele presence to beat, a turn 1 24" move is actually quite an impressive way to pressure your opponent.

You still can't charge the following turn though, IIRC (I could be wrong but I seem to recall some dumb rule related to being in transport wreckage). Maybe it's just that you'll be slowed by the difficult terrain.

Also, moving Flat Out means only snap shots, which is kinda nerfing your shooting (which is supposed to be the strength of mech, besides the immunity to small arms and the mobility). Also, moving in closer isn't always a good idea, because it means you're moving into Rapid Fire range and getting counter-assaulted (potentially). There is also nothing stopping the enemy just backing up, especially enemy mech which can reposition 12". 

 

Now for the bad things.. you don't shoot turn 1 (but night fighting usually makes that useless anyhow.. and GK can't shoot all that far truth be told), and it relies on transports getting blown up to get a turn 2 charge. Of course any transports that don't blow get a nice round of shooting turn 2, and let's just be honest and say you are expecting to lose a transport or 3 on turn 1 in this exercise.

 

It may not be the most glorious strategy, but it is a workable idea.

Except its nothing new. This is precisely the strategy Ork players toyed with back when their codex updated. Trukk rules make it crazy enough to work (sort of...like a lot of Ork tactics, it backfires on them somewhat). The end result was though that 12-man Ork squads simply aren't as scary as 20 or 30 strong blobs just charging off the maximum DZ line. Also, standard castling and bubblewrap tactics make it much less effective. The Trukk Boyz ended up too far forward to support, and not arriving with enough staying power or momentum to cause sufficient damage. Not to mention that, as I pointed out earlier, mech just drives 12" away and shoots you more. It also is intensely predicable and your opponents get an entire turn to react to what you've done. Not to mention that if it fails, you are committed and thus can't really do anything except keep chasing them around the map. 

 

An alternative I'm still trying to get working does the same thing but with Ravens. The turn you arrive, you move into position and Jink to improve your cover save. Dice gods willing, you don't explode (barring FMC's they can't kill you in melee, only with guns). Next turn, you move 6", you cargo leaps out, shoots and charges into the enemy due to Assault Ramps. Still gives them a turn to react, but Flyers are a tougher problem than ground vehicles in 6th. Also, Ravens can bring teleport homers, so the turn your cargo leap out, you can bring in other DS units (like Terminators or DK's) to precisely where needed to support the cargo. 

[Mutter]

 

 

You still can't charge the following turn though, IIRC (I could be wrong but I seem to recall some dumb rule related to being in transport wreckage). Maybe it's just that you'll be slowed by the difficult terrain.

 

It's in the FAQ ...

[Grand Master Caloth]

Wow... so many times that would've made a difference.....