Sinister Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 So what chaos god is responsible Luther and the rest of the Fallen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amitt Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 If I'm not mistaken theres not a particular Chaos God behind him. It was mostly his jealousy of the Lion that led him to actions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3525924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Luther is responsible. I've heard hints that a Lord of Change may have had a role...makes sense, given the manipulation for which Tzeentch is so famous... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3525925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Possibly Nurgle, but I don't think there was any one god behind the fall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3525950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Read "Fallen Angels" by Mike Lee? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3525954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Trials of Azrael audio has some comment toward this http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/trials-of-azrael.html IP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3525960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 A Lord of Change makes an appearance in 'The Lion', but not where Luther is concerned. Rather, he's there to get the Lion's attention, and it reveals that it contacted him when the Primarch was still young and on Caliban. No, I think the root cause of Luther's corruption appears to lie with his studying of the arcane tomes the Lion took from the library of the Knights of Lupus: occult tomes that included rituals related to the taint of Caliban and the summoning of supernatural power; grimoires that haunted those that read them. This, I think, eventually led to him being contacted by the Ruinous Powers. The background material, at any rate, implies that all four of the Chaos gods were invested in Luther, making his conflict with the Lion an echo of the one between Horus and the Emperor. The only question in my mind is whether Cypher - the former Knight of Lupus covertly brought in by the Lion to manage the arcane tomes of his former order - was a willing agent in Luther's corruption... or if he naively introduced the sorcerous material to Luther as a legitimate means by which to combat the taint. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3525970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickSamos Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 No matter who was behind it, Luther still made the choice to turn away and fall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3525990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 The only question in my mind is whether Cypher - the former Knight of Lupus covertly brought in by the Lion to manage the arcane tomes of his former order - was a willing agent in Luther's corruption... or if he naively introduced the sorcerous material to Luther as a legitimate means by which to combat the taint.I have an idea, based on the events of Fallen Angels. First, though, a recap of some of the key issues in the book (in spoilers in case anyone hasn't read it... At the end of Fallen Angels it is revealed that the the taint at Caliban's core is an ancient Warp entity that has lain dormant for millions of years. The Terran sorcerers, who are supposed to be the baddies all through the book, are actually revealed to be performing an invocation to banish the creature. Luther, having killed all of the sorcerers, then uses Zahariel's warp power along with his knowledge of the ancient tomes in the library saved from the Knights of Lupus to try to bring the beast fully through to the materiel plane and bind it to his will. Zahariel is an unwitting pawn in this, and only realises what happened when he comes out of his coma months later, by which time Istvaan V has happened (although this isn't specifically mentioned in the book the timeline is correct). Luther's reasoning is that they will need assistance from the warp to free themselves from the yoke of the Emperor, and, implicitly, from Horus too, as Luther wants Caliban to be independent. Cypher grants access to the library to Luther, but it isn't revealed where his motivations lie, although the book does present him as owing his life and future to the Lion. Now, my theory: Cypher is acting as an agent of the Lion, and his motives for revealing the library to Luther are noble, in that he wants Luther to free Caliban from the taint. Cypher will find out from Zahariel the truth about Luther's motives for dabbling in sorcery, but be damned as a traitor along with the rest of the Dark Angels on Caliban once the Lion returns. Cypher then dedicates the next 10,000 years to putting right the wrongs he helped to perpetrate, and is secretly moving towards a solution that will see the Fallen redeemed and the Lion rewoken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3526051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 The reasoning I have put forward before for Tzeentch being involved in the corruption/Chaos effects at Caliban is specifically because the demon is given/gives its name as Oroborous, and the Oroborous is the symbol used by the Thousand Sons after they fall to Tzeentch. It is also an ancient occult symbol associated with eternal change/transformation. I definitely agree that Luther's fall occurred because of Luther's own choices, he didn't have to be tempted down the path to start off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3526149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 facmanpob, that's more or less what I had in mind. Bryan, that's a fair point. I hadn't considered that. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3526342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 The reason I have for raising the possibility of Nurgle is to do with the device that Jonson picks up. Typhon, to all intents and purposes, fails to gain the device for Grandfather Nurgle, however he is rewarded by Nurgle when Jonson makes of with the device. Corswain also mentions that some of the decay he sees on the Invincible Reason when the daemons enter the ship resemble those on Caliban. My theory is that the entity on Caliban is of Nurgle and he wishes to free his servant utilising the warp device, if he can. Although whether the device is in league with Nurgle or is merely an unknowing pawn is not clear at this stage. At the moment, it serves Jonson. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3526428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 My counter-thought to that is that Nurgle wants to eliminate a Tzeentch stronghold on Caliban and the Lion, as they are "enemies" and anything that lessens Tzeentch's influence on the mortal realm is a "win" for Nurgle. If Tzeentch was still trying to or somehow influencing the Lion, allowing the Lion to have the Nurgle-influenced device could also be a "win." The Chaos Gods are definitely playing their own game, and not everything positive for one has to "win" the war for the mortal realm for the entire Chaos pantheon. As far as Caliban, it's possible that it is touched by more than one Chaotic influence, and it is also possible that it is simply touched by Chaos as a whole, and the decay resembles just one part of what is going on with Caliban. After all, the Great Beasts are said to all be unique, no one exactly like the other, which you could say resembles an "ever changing" concept. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3526437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 fair point, I guess we will wait and see what happens! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3526509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 SO. .. . MUCH . . . . . HERESY!!!!!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3526568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Wow.. good job guys. The build up and execution in Fallen Angels and Decent of Angels was so slow and anti-dynamic I guess I missed most of this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3526590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Wow.. good job guys. The build up and execution in Fallen Angels and Decent of Angels was so slow and anti-dynamic I guess I missed most of this.I recently re-read both of them within a period of 2 weeks. Doing that helped me to pick up a load more stuff that I'd previously overlooked. I actually have a lot more appreciation for those books now than I did at the time of release (although I still don't like the Lion's characterisation compared to the later appearances in the series). @Phoebus - I thought that you were thinking along the same lines as me, hence the reason why I quoted your earlier post @Bryan - I'm definitely seeing the hand of Tzeentch at work.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3526950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 My reasoning for a lord of change being involved comes from Pandorax. When dueling Epimetheus in chapter 6, he says of his involvement in the Horus Heresy: I helped bring half a legion under the sway of the Four True Gods and took part in the destruction of their home world I can think of a few legions whose home worlds were destroyed, but how many half legions fell into heresy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283532-whos-responsible-for-luthers-fall-from-grace/#findComment-3527560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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