Some rules questions

[RastlinD]

I don't get out to the store as much as I would like to play anymore. Thus, I must turn to helpful Bolter and Chainsword members for help with some rules questions. If you could site page numbers in the rule book so I can show my opponent these that would be great!

 

1. My bikes moved in my movement phase, and are charging in the combat phase will I get a jink save against my opponents over watch shooting?

 

2. I have three marines hiding behind a rhino, he can see the top of one marines head and places a large blast weapon on that one marine. Can he kill the other marines he can see or would they get a cover save since he is unable to see two of them?

 

3. I launch a combat against a unit with an attached independent character and challenge. He refuses the challenge, and thus that IC does not get to take part in the combat or use his leadership value. I win the combat and wipe out his entire unit, minus the IC who declined the challenge. What leadership does he use for the moral test? If he fails his leadership test the IC is still subject to all rules of combat resolution.

 

4. For a thunderfire cannon does it follow the rule for barrage weapons and only roll 2d6 and scatter die once and then from there just use the scatter die and placing the other three markers off of that first one?

 

 

Thanks for your help with these guys.

[Axagoras]

1 Yes you would get a jink save

2 They would all get a cover save because they are obscured (unless its barrage) but I think he can do that

3 I think you would have to use hisleadership because its the only one left, because the only other option is there no LD value to test on so he cant fail his test

4 you place the first marker, scatter it, then once the final position is determined you just use the scatter die

[Magpie]

1. Yes

 

2. Yes you can hit all of the models in the unit hit by the template. If it is a normal blast weapon the guys out of sight would get a cover save, 100% is more than 25% obscured which is the key. Barrage would depend on where the centre of the blast is and what LOS exists from the centre to the target.

 

3. The rules for refusing a challenge say only that the Character's leadership cannot be used by the rest of the unit, so she can still use it for herself and yes the combat is resolved as normal.

 

4. Yes.

[Fibonacci]

2 - This can be tricky.  First, it does not matter which models were actually under the blast template.  All wounds are allocated to the closest model in line of sight.

 

In your example, your opponent can place the template over any model the firing model can see.  Roll for scatter and count the number of hits even if the marker scatter out of line of sight or out of range.  Count the number of models under the template.  All this is just to determine the number of hits the weapon caused and it does not necessarily cause casualties to those models.

 

Next, roll for wound using the unit's average Toughness value.  The whole unit's average, not just those under the template.  Already we no longer care which models were under the template and you can forget about them entirely.

 

Finally, allocate wounds.  These always go to the closest visible model.  That model makes any save it is allowed until it loses its last Wound, then the next closest starts taking the allocated wounds.  Any model 25% obscured or in area terrain gets a cover save.  Any model in the open does not.  Any model that cannot be seen can notbe allocated a wound; skip it and go to the next closest.  If no other model is in line of sight, the remaining wounds are discarded.

 

It sounds convoluted but if you look at wound allocation as one model at a time and always going by the closest you can see it is easy to follow.

 

Also, all we are doing with the templates is generating a number of hits.  In fluff terms we are looking to see how many guys can jump out of the way.  The weapon actually hits the guys in the front rank.

 

 

3 - If he declines, YOU choose which character sits out if there are more than one -- like an IC plus the tac squad's sergeant.  Whoever sits out, the rest of the unit may not use his Ld.  If the rest of the unit is wiped out, he can use his own Ld.  Note that just because he sits out does not mean he can not be hit.  He is moved to the back but if enough hits come through, he can fall with the rest of the squad.  

[Magpie]

2 - This can be tricky.  First, it does not matter which models were actually under the blast template.  All wounds are allocated to the closest model in line of sight.

 

3 -  He is moved to the back but if enough hits come through, he can fall with the rest of the squad.  

 

Just on that.

 

2 - The rule for blast templates does seem to say that wounds from it CAN be allocated to models that are out of LOS. Debate continues as to whether this is correct or not but logic seems to dictate that it is.

 

3 - It's important to note that IC isn't actually moved away. The "slinking away" bit is only fluff. As a Character they have to pile in first so quite often they find themselves in B2B but unable to strike back or use their leadership. The only time the participants of a challenge are moved is if they accept.

[Fibonacci]

The rules for Blast weapons -- extensive that they are -- only covers hits. Wounds are allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack. It may hit models out of range and/or out of line of sight but it wounds just like any other shooting attack. That is always apply to the next closest visible model. See pg 33

[edit] I think you may be talking about barrage weapons which are a whole different critter entirely despite also using a blast template.

 

3 - Character moving back is fluff. True. I should have left that out since it is common convention but not RAW.

Characters moving first is no more. Sort of. During the pile in move at their initiative step an IC moves as soon as it is able (pg 63)

In a charge move, the closest assaulting model* is moved to the closest model in the target unit. After that, the charging unit moves one at a time in any order you choose (pg21).

 

Actually the charge move says "the first model" is moved in a straight line into base the closest enemy model of the target unit. This is usually closest to closest but there could be advantages to choosing a different model as your first one moved.

[Magpie]

The rule says a blast weapon can hit and wound units out of line of sight and range which is good enough for me. The allocate as normal bit simply refers to allocating nearest to farthest and so forth as we have already been granted an exception to requiring Line of Sight.

 

The only real debate is whether a blast that does not scatter can hit and wound out of Line of Sight, debate continues on this however the intention of the rule is clear.

 

If moving the character to the back is common convention then you are doing it wrong and it is a significant departure from the rules, quasi-cheating. The whole point is that there are consequences for refusing a challenge, being exposed, in B2B (most likely) and unable to strike back is a big one.

 

You don't get a choice as to who moves first on the charge: "The initial charger is always the model nearest the enemy"

and they don't actually have to move in a straight line as such, it's the "shortest possible route" that is required.

[Fibonacci]

I don't see where you are saying blast weapons can wound out of line of sight.

 

Blast markers only count the number of hits.  After that, they no longer play any role.  Count up the number of hits, roll to wound as normal, allocate wounds as normal.  Who gets hit and where they are does not matter since it is rolled against the unit's average Toughness.  There is no permission anywhere to allocate wounds to models our of line of sight.  If you see one, can you quote it for me?  Hits out of LOS, sure.  But allocating wounds, NO.

 

"they don't actually have to move in a straight line as such, it's the "shortest possible route" that is required." :ROFLMAO

[Magpie]

While you on the floor doing strange things with your bottom you might wish to peruse the following pages.

 

Page 33

"In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models

locked in combat)."

 

This is a clear override to the prohibition of wounds being allocated to models not in line of sight.

 

Page 20

The initial charger is always the model nearest to the enemy (as measured by the shortest possible route, going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in other units).

 

The requirement for the "nearest" to be adjudged by their movement path is critical as it can make a significant difference to how you select the initial charger.

[Fibonacci]

Not really. You can hit it, you can wound it as such since To Wound is rolled againts the unit, but you still have to follow the allocation rules like normal. It explicitly states: "Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack."

You can hit units you can not see. You can wound units you can not see. But wounds are allocated and saved on a model by model basis; not by unit. You cannot allocate wounds to models you cannot see. OK, so you wounded a unit out of Line of Sight. How many wounds can you allocate to it? None.

The requirement for the "nearest" to be adjudged by their movement path is critical as it can make a significant difference to how you select the initial charger.

All of this is way off topic and only serves to prove you do not move IC first.


I think the questions have been answered. Good night. Good bless. I'll see yall when I get back.

[Magpie]

I wasn't talking about the IC moving first I was making it clear that you are wrong in thinking you have a choice when picking the nearest, saying it's been answered and "off topic" doesn't make what you're saying any less wrong.

[The Librarian]

To 3.

 

When you win and wipe out the entire unit - why is the IC not wiped out as well?

He can not leave the unit except in his movement phase, so he is part of the unit in the CC phase.

If the unit is wipe out he is gone as well... his bad luck if he was hiding...

[Magpie]

I think the scenario is that all others in the unit were wiped out except for the IC

[hallodx]

We should make clear what "wipe out" means. It means you lose a combat, failed Ld, get caught, and you have no ATSKNF, that make the entire unit killed in sweeping advance, we call it wiped out. So even if your IC was still alive after saving throw and you lost the combat, you still lost the combat and the following progress must be carried put. It doesn't matter if IC is the lone survivor or not, but if he didn't run fast enough, killed in sweeping advance, he get wiped out.

[Magpie]

Or we could just introduce the novel concept of reading what the OP actually posted rather than not bothering and making up our own arbitrary determinations ?

 

"I win the combat and wipe out his entire unit, minus the IC who declined the challenge"

 

Seems pretty clear to me 

[hallodx]

Ok, I got his idea. I think this is not covered in BRB, so come up with a idea both accept. If can't, throw a dice.

[Magpie]

What isn't covered in the rulebook ?

[Spinsanity]

Regarding Question 3 :

First of all, I agree with Magpie. Please keep the original question in mind before making condescending comments...

 

At first, this question seemed pretty clear-cut to me, but as it turns out, reading the rules more closely, it isn't...

 

Refusing a challenge, page 64 :

"his Leadership cannot be used by the rest of the unit for the reminder of the phase"

 

Independent Characters, page 39 (4th paragraph under the Joining and Leaving a Unit header) :

"If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

 

Automatic pass and fail, page 7 :

"However, if the model has a characteristic of 0 or '-' it automatically fails the test."

 

As seen above, he remains a member of the unit until the assault phase ends, and the unit can't use his Leadership value until then. Since the unit has no usable Leadership value anymore, I'd have to assume he either needs to roll insane courage, or automatically fails...

[Magpie]

"cannot be used by the rest of the unit "

 

Doesn't exclude him from using his own leadership as "the rest of" is a clear exclusion of the IC itself from the prohibition of using his leadership.

[hallodx]

Yeah, thanks for the reference, PNF. It's not really clearly stated how it should work if OP senecio happened.

 

"cannot be used by the rest of the unit "

 

Doesn't exclude him from using his own leadership as "the rest of" is a clear exclusion of the IC itself from the prohibition of using his leadership.

So is it auto fail or you can try for a double 1?

[Spinsanity]

Magpie, as quoted on page 39, he is still a member of the unit until the following phase even though the unit has been wiped out. So although he is alone, he can't use his Ld value until AFTER he has made his morale test.

[Magpie]

The rule does not say "his leadership cannot be used by the unit" it says "his leadership cannot be used by the rest of the unit" 

 

Rest of means everything other than him.

 

Consequently if HE needs to undergo a leadership test, as is the case when no one else is left alive, then he uses the highest leadership in the unit, his. The other guys in the unit cannot use his leadership because he refused the challenge however as they are all dead now it doesn't bother them.

 

His leadership is not 0 or - if there is some specific leadership test he needs to take, to cast a psychic power for example, he still uses his leadership. 

[hallodx]

Sure that's your point, but how about claiming because there's no rest model, so no Ld value for that unit?

Still think come up with a idea both player accept is the better solution tho.

[Spinsanity]

The fact there's noone else left alive doesn't change a thing. He's still part of the unit, a unit composed one one model, which is not allowed to use that model's Ld when making a morale test.

[Leonaides]

IF it was the last turn of the game and it was a scoring unit on an objective we were discussing, would you still say the character was part of the now-all-dead unit, and thus able to score?