Oh no, another Legion Character rules thread!

[Xenith]

Hi all,

 

When it comes to the codex, people are unhappy. A large part of this is due to the lack of customisation/legion rules.

 

Rather than try and tackle everything with large sweeping changes, I think that the characters are the most important thing, so without further ado, here are two lines for each legion that add variability:

 

An army may be picked from the codex as normal, or you may select one of the following legion rules.

 

All models using the legion rules are deemed to be the most ancient and corrupt of the Chaos Space Marine Hordes, and as such, all models must purchase the Veterans of the Long War upgrade.

 

Death guard

All characters must have mark of nurgle. All characters have -1I, and gain feel no pain, replace their frag grenades with blight grenades and their ccw with a plague knife. Army may not include non Nurgle marked models. Warlord gains the 'Master of traitors' special rule.

 

Thousand Sons

All characters must have mark of tzeentch and gain 1 Mastery Level. This can cause a non psyker to become a psyker. Normal spell selection rules apply, all characters gain the inferno bolts special rule. Army may not include non Tzeentch marked models. Warlord gains the 'Master of traitors' special rule.

 

Emperors Children

All characters must have mark of Slaanesh. Any character may take a sonic blaster for 5pts, or a doom siren for 15pts if not already able to. Army may not include non Slaanesh marked models. Warlord gains the 'Master of traitors' special rule.

 

World Eaters

All characters must have mark of Khorne. All characters gain +1WS and gain the furious charge USR. Army may not include non Khorne marked models. Warlord gains the 'Master of traitors' special rule.

 

Iron Warriors

Independent characters gain the 'Shatter Defences' rule. Warpsmiths instead gain +1 wound.

 

Word Bearers

All characters gain 'beseech the dark gods' and 'zealot' rules. Dark Apostles instead increase the range of 'Demagogue' to 12".

 

Night Lords

Drawing a blank here. This cannot be something mundane like 'all get night vision'.

 

Alpha Legion

The warlord may select the 'master of deception' trait instead of rolling as normal. Opponents may never claim the 'slay the warlord' victory point against Alpha Legion (alternatively: any character may be the warlord, noted down in secret before rolling for warlord traits).

 

Black Legion

Use the black legion supplement

 

Thoughts? This is more a thought exercise than anything, and wanted to share my ideas. These will probably never see the light of the table.

[daboarder]

great, now expand the cult bonuses from just characters to all units.

[hallodx]

The last sentance made me laugh lol.

I think WE should get +1A instead of +1WS. Fighting relentlessly and fieriously don't make them exceptional warriors.

Give Night Lord what FW legion list give them should be fine, since they think they never serve Chaos.

Alpha Legion, I have another idea: any unit that wish to shoot or charge a Alpha Legion unit must roll a D6, so does the Alpha Legion player. If the attacker rolls higher, he can atack that unit and put a mark on that unit. The marked unit doesn't apply this rule again in this game.

[daboarder]

The last sentance made me laugh lol.

I think WE should get +1A instead of +1WS. Fighting relentlessly and fieriously don't make them exceptional warriors.

Give Night Lord what FW legion list give them should be fine, since they think they never serve Chaos.

Alpha Legion, I have another idea: any unit that wish to shoot or charge a Alpha Legion unit must roll a D6, so does the Alpha Legion player. If the attacker rolls higher, he can atack that unit and put a mark on that unit. The marked unit doesn't apply this rule again in this game.

 

the WE +1WS is because thats what the cult legion has mate, khorne zerkers have Ws5

[hallodx]

 

The last sentance made me laugh lol.

I think WE should get +1A instead of +1WS. Fighting relentlessly and fieriously don't make them exceptional warriors.

Give Night Lord what FW legion list give them should be fine, since they think they never serve Chaos.

Alpha Legion, I have another idea: any unit that wish to shoot or charge a Alpha Legion unit must roll a D6, so does the Alpha Legion player. If the attacker rolls higher, he can atack that unit and put a mark on that unit. The marked unit doesn't apply this rule again in this game.

 

the WE +1WS is because thats what the cult legion has mate, khorne zerkers have Ws5

Indeed, but personally I'd rather have more A than WS. Just me.

[Nehekhare]

Apply legiones astartes (x) special rules from Horus Heresy.

[daboarder]

they don't work for every legion, they are woefully inaccurate for post heresy deathguard for example.

[Excessus]

I like the "denies slay the warlord" trait, but instead of a set warlord trait, I would rather make them BB:s with IG. That would work both ways as well, having a small, elite force of Alphas in a guard army...

[Nehekhare]

they don't work for every legion, they are woefully inaccurate for post heresy deathguard for example.

 

you think it is less accurate than fielding typhus & plague marines only?

[daboarder]

For a post legion deathguard army....yes actually. Both terrible solutions but thats the way it is

[Nehekhare]

were there actually any death guard marines that were not transformed into plague marines by the destroyer plague (besides garro)? Isn't the Deathshroud never more than 49 steps from Mortarion, so not really a playable option anyway? How many characters do you need in addition to Typhus?

It seems to me that playing anything other than the options the current codex offers would not be fluffy for DG (and that is a rare thing these days...). HH can't add much to that (but it doesn't take anything away either). 

For any other Legion (well, wait for IW and ALin HH3, TS are all sorcs/rubrics anyway, so see: DG), legiones astartes suffices to provide the character C:CSMeh lacks.

ok, maybe the doom siren option for EC lords.

[Xenith]

Daboarder got it, this is simply about applying the special rules of the cults to characters, which I think can be done for free without upsetting the power level of the book.

 

This has the two fold effect of generally making characters slightly better in challenges, which mitigates Champions of chaos somewhat.

 

I wanted to keep this limited to characters, as this is one of the biggest issues, IMO, that a chaos lord is weaker than his subordinates.

 

Adding all the special rules to these units takes us back into the real of 3.5 codex, where adding a mark to a basic CSM unit makes them into the cult unit.

 

The idea here isn't to limit codex choices significantly (like by disallowing regular CSM from a death guard army), but to add another dimension to the commanders of the army.

[daboarder]

 

 

Yeah destroyer plague changed all the deathguard into "plagues"

 

That doesnt mean their terminator armour suddenly turned to power armour. That they lost every single support weapon or option. That the only leader in the entire legion is typhus....

[Nehekhare]

This is just about Feel no Pain, isn't it?

 

ou already get "cult-"characters with typhus, lucius, khârn and ahriman, what do you *need* generic HQs for? SM commanders don't get sternguard bolter special ammo either.

 

According to the old IA article, DG didn't use support weapons (or other troop types) at all, so the point is moot.

 

Terminators never get grenades (blight or otherwise) and have PWs>plague knives. blight grenades are an armory option, as is the pretty nurglesque black mace.

 

DG really has a very decent amount of fluffy (and competitive btw, compared to, say, TS) options in that codex.

 

for WE, EC, WB and NL, legiones astartes would be fair enough to have a fluffy army. BL may choose its (crappy) supplement over SoH, TS have all they need, IW/AL wait and meanwhile use C:SM (IH/RG chapter tactics).

 

note: I'm not talking about how competitive any of this is. obviously C:CSM lacks tonnes of stuff in that regard (imo too much to even begin working with it), but that is another issue.

[Xenith]

This is just about Feel no Pain, isn't it?

No, I just used deathguard as a single example, because going through detailing all the legions every time is tedious.

 

 

ou already get "cult-"characters with typhus, lucius, khârn and ahriman, what do you *need* generic HQs for? SM commanders don't get sternguard bolter special ammo either.

That's the kind of attitude that renders the legions as one dimensional. So you're telling me that the Thousand Sons dont have techmarines? Or that Every DG/WE force is led by Kharne/Typus? It's the same attitute as the 'use Lysander as counts as dude in every army' that happened in the last C:SM, with the exception that their characters were more useful.

 

SM commanders not getting SG ammo is a straw man argument. If there was a 'Deathwatch Captain' unit entry/chapter tactic, then I would fully expect that to get special ammo. SM commanders already get the benfit of chapter tactics. If you complain about a sorceror getting 5+ FNP for free, what must you think of an Iron Hands Linrarian who gets 6+ FNP and It Will Not Die for free?

 

 

 

According to the old IA article, DG didn't use support weapons (or other troop types) at all, so the point is moot.

Agree. That's why I didnt extend the rules to all units. DG dont carry heavy weapons or ride bikes.

 

 

 

Terminators never get grenades (blight or otherwise) and have PWs>plague knives. blight grenades are an armory option, as is the pretty nurglesque black mace.

I never suggested any of these options were for terminator units/

 

 

for WE, EC, WB and NL, legiones astartes would be fair enough to have a fluffy army. BL may choose its (crappy) supplement over SoH, TS have all they need, IW/AL wait and meanwhile use C:SM (IH/RG chapter tactics).

Use C:SM or FW is a poor excuse. They involve the spending of extra money, and rules that still do not represent the Legion commanders in the 40th Millenium.

 

 

This is simply about a small set of rules that modify the HQ choices in your army to match the special rules/bonuses possessed by the cults.

 

 

[daboarder]

Support weapon doesnt necessarily mean heavy. For examlle a nice setup used to be plgue havocs packing 4 plasma guns....not an option anymore.

 

And still need to address the terminator issue

[Forté]

I'll be blunt here. Point allocations would be needed for the bonuses. Especially the Death Guard one.

 

Emperors Children:

-Only MoS units may be selected.

-Lords gain +1WS. But cost +15pts.

-Any Character inc. Champions may take Sonic Blaster and/or Doom Siren (cost as Noise Marines).

-Any Character inc. Champions may take Sonic Screamers 5pts. +1I on turn charging.

-Any Character can take 'Trophies of indulgence' for 5pts to cause fear or terror if fear is already caused.

-Havoks can take Blast masters (cost as Noise Marines).

-Terminators have the Noise Marine Sonic Weapon options (same cost).

-ALL Characters must issue challenges when the option is there.

 

Night Lords:

-Night Vision & Stealth. For the same extra cost as VotLW.

-Terror Markings. Cause fear for 5pts. All characters inc. Champions.

-Troops may gain Outflank or Infiltrate for 20pts.

-Fight without honour. Refuse any challenges with no negative modifiers.

-First turn has Night Fighting rules if NL are the attackers or go first.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Nehekhare]

Use

C:SM or FW is a poor excuse. They involve the spending of extra money

try google.

 

and no - C:CSM is the poor excuse =P

 

point is - the rules are there.

 

the terminator issue

yeah, FnP ;)

what about the reduction in Initiative?

 

it's decent enough.

[Xenith]

Forte:

 

Points would matter, if all the units were costed appropriately: Seem my earlier point about Iron Hands captains getting FNP 6+ and IWND for free, or all RG/WS infantry getting Scout/H+R.

 

All of those abilities are arguably much more powerful than the ones I've posted here. These are more fluff oriented, dont change or invalidate army builds, but make generic characters a bit more attractive.

 

For your rules:

 

Why would an Noise marine lord have higher WS than a Khorne Berzerker lord? Basic noise marines have a worse weapon skill than Khorne Berzerkers? The duellist route is no answer, Lucius is the only one in the legion renowned for actively seeking out duels, the rest duel no more or less than other CSM. space marine.

 

"All characters must make challenges" is comprehensively covered by 'Champions of Chaos'.

 

I'm also trying to do this without making up rules of my own. Shufflingpoint costs around is also too much.

 

Chaos characters in general need a boost, so applying a set of rules to characters from each legion, for no addition in points is the simple solution, and compared to Eldar, Tau, SM codexes, doesnt make a difference to how good the army is.

 

and no - C:CSM is the poor excuse =P

Sad but true.

 

UPDATED:

 

Added VotLW requirement to unlock perks, -1I for Death Guard characters. But I do note that Typhus has I5, which is weird.

 

I4 is much more crippling to a chaos lord than FNP is a boon.

[Forté]

@Xenith.

 

EC are known for mastering any weapon the acquire from a well fought opponent. +1WS does make sense over a Khorne Lord as it shows more finesse than brutality. Khorne would more be A or S bounses.

 

Either way, they'll be digital Codexes soon and FW have done a good job so far. That and no one will ever really agree so house rules are house rules and should be talked through with your opponent.

[daboarder]

Use

C:SM or FW is a poor excuse. They involve the spending of extra money

try google.

and no - C:CSM is the poor excuse =P

point is - the rules are there.

>the terminator issue

yeah, FnP

what about the reduction in Initiative?

it's decent enough.

you give me FNP on all my MoN models and I will gladly hit them with -1I

[Nehekhare]

Lucius is the only one in the legion renowned for actively seeking out duels, the rest duel no more or less than other CSM. space marine.

 

"All characters must make challenges" is comprehensively covered by 'Champions of Chaos'.

 

here, a look to the legiones astartes (emperors children) rule will be helpful, too:

 

III Legion: Emperor's Children

• All Emperor's Children Squads have the Crusader Special Rule
• Martial Pride: must issue/accept challenges. If they fail, their unit suffers -1 to their Ld if they have to take a morale test for losing combat this turn.

 

so really this part of the champion of chaos rule is EC only (while the boon table stays for everybody). 

this is good, because most of the players hate that part and consider it to be not fluffy for their chaos legion (it's really more of a EC/IF thing, WE do gladiator pit fights, not duels).

 

also, note that legiones astartes, in addition to the legion-specific special rules, includes:

 

 

may always attempt to regroup regardless of casualities

 

so the much lamented leadership issue is (partly) adressed, too.

 

p.s: after that we only need a brb faq for daemonic to include fearless and fear to cancel out ATSKNF/fearless or other fear in melee and we're good :D

[Sception]

I like OPs version. Simple, minimal, addresses the most pressing issues with lack of legion rules without going overboard, or trying to rewrite the entire book*, remembers that the chaos legions at the end of the heresy are not the chaos marines at the dawn of the 13th black crusade nearly 10,000 years later.

 

Just needs to specify 'independent characters' instead of just 'characters', as the rules presented don't make much sense on unit champs, particularly champs of cult units (i don't think OP meant to say plague champs should be init 2, for instance).

 

 

*not that there's anything wrong with whole book homebrews - apart from homebrews in general being a colossal waste of time unlikely to bring even cathartic satisfaction and mostly just focusing bitterness on the aspects of the rules that you already dislike - I'm just saying 'legion rules' specifically aren't the place to fix things like what the marks do, or the rules for cult units, or the like. problems with the basic codex rules, where they exist, should be addressed within the codex rules themselves, not in patch on legion or supplement rules, even in the pointless hypothetical morass of misery, the swamp of sadness where a thousand brave equine chaos players surrender to childhood destroying depresion, the domains of dread each lorded over by their own isolated and solitary master screaming his or her own individual lament as divorced from each other as they are from the material plane, that is the chaos marine homebrew scene.

[Xenith]

Haha, cheers, Malisteen.

You're right, PM champs should not be I2, like you recongnised, I'm going for minimalist, and I think I may have broken that by allowing some of the rules to bleed into unit champions.

It may be easier to only apply them to independant characters, as opposed to making them not work on cult units.

How about:
 

 

Death guard
All characters must have mark of nurgle. All characters purchasing the Mark of Nurgle have -1I, and gain the feel no pain special rule. They replace their frag grenades with blight grenades and their ccw with a plague knife. Army may not include non Nurgle marked models. A Nurgle Marked Warlord gains the 'Master of traitors: Plague Marines' special rule.

As before, I'm approaching this thought exercise from a game design point of view to create the simplest, most elegant solution to the problem of having no generic legion characters, without making up additional rules/wargear.

 

This can be done through applying rules and stat changes from elsewhere, or allowing them to break existing game rules, as appropriate.

 

[Sception]

works, though warrants a sentence specifying that characters that have the mark automatically don't apply the add'l effects.