Re-reading "A thousand sons"

[xanthate]

Hi everyone,

 

I was re-reading "A thousand sons" and with the light of recent books (betrayer, lost sons, etc..) something hit me.

 

 

 

Right after Magnus tries to save Horus from falling to chaos Ahriman goes to the Medicae to use Kallista's powers of divination (to her demise). And she says something that i didn't fully understood when the book was published.
However, with the light of newer publications some of it makes sense now.
she says:
"The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"
I think it is a direct reference to the events in Deliverance Lost and in the short story The lost Sons.
Then she goes on to says:
"A brother betrayed, a brother murdered"
I think this is a reference to the events in Betrayer and to the death of Ferrus Manus ( no great discovery in the case of Ferrus).
The rest of the quote is just a ref to what Magnus is going to do to the wards of the emperor on terra and what the wolves are going to do to Prospero.

 

 

 

That makes me want to re-read everything and search for hidden references in the other books.

That shows a big amount of forward planning from the BL authors which i find fantastic.

 

What do you think?

 

 

[miller_gooner]

Could this even be a reference to the Blood Ravens? 'Lost sons' could be a reference to one of the expunged Primarchs - just a thought?!

 

I reckon you'd uncover so many hidden gems... this has the potential to be an awesome thread if everyone added their own findings.

[xanthate]

It might be but i think it makes more sense if the vision is directly related to events unfolding during the heresy.

Like Tzeentch teasing the thousand sons (and the authors teasing the reader) with obscure snippets of information that make sense only after they can't do anything about it (and once the reader has read the relevant book).

 

It would show great collaborative work from the whole team of authors.

Moreover we do know that they have meeting to discuss the way the story is moving forward.

 

to illustrate my point more precisely:

 

The Ravens crying out for salvation:
Corax is trying to rebuild his legion in Deliverance Lost using old genetic tech from the emperor.

It is ultimatly denied to him by the actions of the Alpha Legion.

The lost sons crying out for knowledge:
The Blood Angels left on Baal wonder what happen to Sanguinius in The Lost Sons and Agents of Malcador try to disband the Legion and requisition their assets. Knowledge of the Primarch's fate is denied to them by the warp storms created by the Word Bearers.

 

[miller_gooner]

It was just a thought really, I love remembering previous references and it's good when you witness one author covering the same legion as another and these references coming together.

 

I really like the references to the 40k universe i.e. Amit and the Flesh Tearers and then some of Abnett's references to the Iron Snakes.  I just read Riven by John French, that was a pretty cool tale and there is the first reference to the Templars in this short story.

[xanthate]

Aye love that too !

Will keep on digging in the other books when i have time.

[Frosco Toppings]

This again! It has been heavily hinted that this is a reference to the Blood Ravens chapter being created from loyalist Thousand Sons. I believe a user here even emailed Dan Abnett to get his take on this interpretation and he seemed to agree with this theory.

[miller_gooner]

This again! It has been heavily hinted that this is a reference to the Blood Ravens chapter being created from loyalist Thousand Sons. I believe a user here even emailed Dan Abnett to get his take on this interpretation and he seemed to agree with this theory.

 

Ah wow - didn't see this, thanks for the info!

[Wade Garrett]

Considering the merry hash Graham McNeil and even ADB have made with their own books (Argel Tal is on his way to Calth! Nope, just kidding. Magnus's warning arrived after Isstvan 3 even though in two other books Horus describes altering Russ's warning before killing off the Atrocity) I think you are giving BL authors far, FAAAAR too much credit.

 

*Thread will be revisited once McNeil decides to write the Triumph at Ullanor happened AFTER the Dropsite Massacre in his latest Horus centric novel*

[Kol Saresk]

Considering the merry hash Graham McNeil and even ADB have made with their own books (Argel Tal is on his way to Calth! Nope, just kidding. Magnus's warning arrived after Isstvan 3 even though in two other books Horus describes altering Russ's warning before killing off the Atrocity) I think you are giving BL authors far, FAAAAR too much credit.

 

*Thread will be revisited once McNeil decides to write the Triumph at Ullanor happened AFTER the Dropsite Massacre in his latest Horus centric novel*

Have you happened to read The Underground War?

The short story where you find out Lorgar was with that same fleet? And that Argel Tal was travelling with that fleet with the sole purpose of creating 2,000 "lesser" Gal Vorbak? From which we then go to Butcher's Nails where that fleet has since broken up into several fleets, one of which is travelling with Angron?

 

 

It's a fantastic story. Really, it is. You don't even realize what's going on until the very end. I highly recommend it, along with Rob Sanders' A Deeper Darkness.

[Prot]

I always thought the reference in Thousand Sons was towards the Blood Ravens as well... however, I always thought the Blood Ravens were one of the chapters nearly wiped out (along with their true history).  I never thought of them as the loyal Thousand Sons... but it's a good thought, and could be valid.

[miller_gooner]

Yeah check this; google'd it and found the reference on here - sorry is a copy and paste job!

 

Here's a summary of the background before A Thousand Sons. I got tired of arguing in threads so saved it!

Serious SPOILERS below!!!!!

Blood Raven origins - Spoilers from DoW books included
________________________________________
After reading the Dawn of War series, specifically the last 2, it seems that all signs are pointing to the Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons successors. Now this has often been postulated and discarded as impossible, but the last two books almost hit you over the head the supporting evidence.

As a general recap:

- Blood Ravens have a very high number of Librarians
- Blood Ravens are continually thirsting for knowledge, to the point that it's come many times to the Inquisition's notice
- Blood Ravens don't know their Primarch, just their Father Librarian
- Their history has been purposefully obscured
- One squad/company disappeared into the Eye of Terror, led by their Librarian, in search of knowledge

Revealed in Ascension
- Blood Ravens in the far past built a recruiting world outpost on top of an earlier marine outpost
- This earlier marine outpost was built during the time of the Heresy. It was built by marines in Red Armor (T Sons, Blood Angels, or word bearers?).
- These marines were able to work with the Eldar to set magic and psychic wards to lock a Necron force in Psychic Stasis
- These Heresy Era marines were tasked by the Eldar with guarding this galaxy wide threat, but they mysteriously left abandoned the planet and it was never recorded again in Imperial records until the Blood Ravens took it back over
- Finally, the Eldar still remember working with the Heresy Era marines, and mistake the Blood Ravens as being one and the same

Revealed in the Tempest
- The Blood Ravens can field entire squads of Librarians and even have a secret inner circle of Librarians sort of like the DA Deathwing, who hold knowledge not spread throughout the rest of the Chapter
- The Blood Ravens resent the Imperial Fists, and even have a secret tome written about the un-founding, explaining how those Founding chapters aren't necessarily all they're cracked up to be
- The Blood Ravens Father Librarian Vidya was known to Arhiman of the Thousand Sons
- Arhiman hints that the Blood Ravens Librarians' bear the same color as the T-Sons as more than a coincidence, it's based on the Rubric of Arhiman
- Ahriman is intimately familiar with the details of the founding of the Blood Ravens, but doesn't explain how
- Ahriman of the Thousand Sons, the Eldar and the Harlequins, and the Blood Ravens of old and their Father Librarian are all very linked in the ancient times

So, here's my theory based on all this circumstantial evidence...

1) The Thousand Sons were the marines working with the Eldar to secure the Necron during the Heresy. This never came to notice in the rest of the Imperium either because of the start of the Heresy, or because they kept it secret. This is why these "red marines" would leave their responsibilities to guard one of the greatest threats in the universe....they were fighting the rest of the Imperium and were driven into the eye.

2) The Blood Ravens were founded before or during the Heresy by a Senior Librarian of the Thousand Sons. Whether he (Father Vidya) split from the Thousand Sons before over the ends and means in the pursuit of knowledge, or the split did not occur until the Heresy is unknown. It could be that they were a splinter known to be loyal by the powers that be and were allowed to found a new Chapter, or it could be that they had already separated themselves.

3) Father Vidya had many of the same studious, searching tendencies as his old Legion, but while the T Sons turned down the evil road in anger and to cure the Rubric, his searches of knowledge remained benign.

4) He worked again with the Eldar to craft another powerful anti-Necron weapon, stored in the Blood Raven's battle barge and to lock the Necron in another place in the galaxy.

5) Although his passion for research and the rituals were maintained, Vidya's actual knowledge were gradually buried over time, but unlike all the other Chapters, their origins were deliberately obscured, for obvious reasons.


This is what we knew/thought before the HH Novel. A Thousand Sons has lots of confirming points of evidence. Again SPOILERS below!!!

1) The Corvidae (Ahriman belongs to this Cult) are obviously named for Ravens, but additionally, its members actually have Ravens' Heads emblazoned on their shoulder pads. They are also the Guardians of the great Library.

2) The Possessed Remembrancer glimpses the future of Prospero "...the lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They cry out for Salvation and Knowledge but it is denied?..."

3) Before the Wolves arrive for the seige, 4 Thousand Sons battle barges and their attendant Squadrons of strike cruisers are sent off by Magnus in different directions so they cannot interfere in the Seige. They have special sealed orders for their Captains to open once they have arrived at their destinations. We never learn the the orders, or who was on them.

Sooo, The Blood Ravens novels had been pretty heavy handedly pointing at the relationship, but A Thousand Sons makes it clear. The Blood Ravens are the decendents of the Thousand Sons.

[Kol Saresk]

I always thought the reference in Thousand Sons was towards the Blood Ravens as well... however, I always thought the Blood Ravens were one of the chapters nearly wiped out (along with their true history).  I never thought of them as the loyal Thousand Sons... but it's a good thought, and could be valid.

Me neither. I always thought of them as the survivors who were smart enough to hide under the Imperium's radar by "erasing their past". Plausible deniability and all that.

 

EDIT: Most of the DoW books, due to their relationship to the "non-canon"(as if anything's canon) DoW games are usually regarded as..... well it'd be like using something from 2nd Edition to justify how it should be in 6th Edition. Not to mention the author, C.S. Goto is somewhat infamous for how he affects the background.

 

Not saying it isn't true, just a heads up.