CSM with IG allies synergies/tactics

[Frater Cornelius]

Hey there lads,

 

after quite some time I am able to return to B&C. During that time though I had a change of heart and dropped the SW codex for good in favour of Chaos (mostly because I am tired of spamming GH and CSM offers so much room for creative thinking and unit diversity with cults and different HQ). Note that I just use chaos codex for rules and opportunity to use fantasy models like dragonriders and so forth, but my marines are still either loyalists or non-chaos-renegades. The fluff (and appearance/names/icons) is handled accordingly.

 

The price for this, however, was that my lil' IG regiment is suddenly AoC, hence I have some trouble finding good synergies between the two, mainly due to my inexperience with said combo. Maybe you guys can help me finding some worthwhile tricks? The ones I have come up with (nothing special) are using plagues as tough forward objective grabbers with long ranged IG support, Vendetta to fry tanks/transports so that baleturkey can focus on inf, and (not limited to chaos) psyker battle squad to weaken resolve and shriek to murder elite squads.

 

On a final note, I dislike using platoons and prefer fokusing on armour and smaller units. As such I own couple vet squads, CCS, lord com, psyker battle squad, storms, a vendetta and magnetised LR (use mostly pask vanquisher or battle canon). Thanks for reading, feedback is much appreciated.

[the jeske]

CSM offers so much room for creative thinking and unit diversity with cults and different H

there is no synergy between IG and csm . they aren't battle brothers . We don't have buff powers that could help IG[like divination] . We can't grand their blobs inv[DA] or Ld immunity . we can give them counter units , but that is something any marine codex can do. We also have problems with helping them with shoting. while oblits are awesome , they aren't the thing IG armies want.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yes, I do indeed find CSM lists more engaging than building a GH/tac squad for the billionth time, but that's just me in my own crazy universe.

But I suppose, you are right. Synergy is the wrong word, as it is only possible with battle bro's. What I am talking about is unit/list composition and supplementary units. Like GM instead of cultists or the superior IG artillery to help advancing CSM units from behind. Tactical stuff.

Yes, it might not be optimal but I'll be damned before I go back to loyalist codecies after enjoying and converting all my dudes Oo

[Argun]

As an IG guy myself, I'd suggest going for tanks and/or artillery. Nice thing is, you can fit up to 3 in one slot! Vendettas are a good choice, never seen them paired off with hellturkeys though, so it might make an interesting combination.

[Iron_Within]

From an absolute power gamer perspective CSM are not the best codex (far from it) so lets leave that at the door and be done with it.

 

I play Iron Warriors, IG give me one thing that I feel is core to my army (but it doesn't have); artillery. With IG I can field decent Ordinance weapons that can engage my opponents at range (whereas my Defilers are just rubbish and my Vindicators need to be within 24"). Along with cheap Mortars you can, using as an ally you can saturate the board with barrage while your army advances. Against MEQ armies it wouldn't fare as well but against lighter armoured armies it could make a mess when supported by Maulerfiends, or Spawn, something to prevent the enemy getting too close.

[the jeske]

But wouldn't it be better to take codex sm with Iron Hands rules , you could get your IWND , BB , more flexible units [different transports and methods of deployment] and possible 3ed free BB in the form of inqusition .

 

To take your example . I could take guns with ton of aoe from the sm codex . Support them with nice artilery options from the sm codex . take two inq for divination one normal and one cortez . Then IG would give 2 vendettas with vets , a blob[and  augument it with one of my MEQ HQs] 1-2 LRusses or maybe a manticore/medusa . And as stop unit one could take two units of bikers.

[Frater Cornelius]

CSM may not be faceroll, but it's playable. But that's good, use yer brain and not Matt Ward. In the end, it's the player who wins the game, not the codex. IIRC chaos is the most played codex during events (seen some sort of statistic).

I had a long win streak with solo chaos and chaos allied with black legion myself in a semi-competitive environment, seeing as I am not ready yet to reenter the tournament scene just yet.

 

But, wow, jeske, you are just determined to break the mood. I thought a bit about possible tricks and ways to play these two races and came up with a couple alright-sounding ideas:

 

some sort of pseudo-flying circus with 2 winged DP, 2-3 baleturkeys, vendetta-squadron with 2-3 vendettas (filled with vets/CCS), this gives you enough horde and MEQ/TEQ killing power as well as anti air and still enough points for some CSM troops to hold home/mid objective

 

or doing mass infiltrate with huron and creed. give vets the infiltrate upgrade, get some sort of infernal canine or so to the front lines with creed and a CSM squad (possibly with fabulous bile upgrade) and khorne/nurgle set up for 2nd (player) turn charge and a lot of pressure turn one. have some things deep strike the next turn like sly marbo or storms or maybe a couple termicide units and of cause your fliers

given the wording of the Master of Deception trait, it should allow you to infiltrate an inf. platoon since it does not specify 'friendly unit' or 'the same detachment/faction'

 

in both cases you can make good use of astropath and OotF since, again, does not specify which detachment (correct me if this has been FAQ'd)

 

Another thing would be nurgle units and/or DP cause fear, couple that with weaken resolve from full battle psyker squad and your enemy will hit on 5s and most likely lose combat and fail his morale so that you can try and run him down

And of cause a will aimed shriek will also help

 

Anyway, I am sure there is a lot more, but it is less apparent than just sticking a rune priest in a blob, which seems just boring. I am starting to like the CSM/IG combo.. on paper anyway, gotta try some of those tricks soon.

[the jeske]

I would rather put azrael in to a blob , if I were taking one . But anyway . I have no problems with building armies with IG and SM , when the same thing can't be build better out of a loyalist meq dex .

 

 

Lets say we take your demon build.

 

DP mace tzeench wings. lvl 3

DP slanesh wings lvl 1

 

2x10 cultits

 

1x2mon oblits

 

Commisar in chimera

2 vet units in vendettas

manticore.

 

Half is  melee , half is shoty . we get the 4 troops , we have psykers . The problem is those 2 DPs are a big investment and unlike the 4th ed dread ax DP , are not just counter units . So they have to go melee , but melee makes the rest of the list work crappier. 

 

So we rebuild the list .

 

1 DP lvl 3 mace tzeench wings

 

2xcultitst

 

2x2mon oblits

 

IG stays the same.

 

we became shotier [which is good] , 1 DP with very good counter ability . good vs teq/meq/hordes etc. Seems to be better and it is . What are the problems . Well we still have a big investment in the DP , but worse with 1 DP it becomes a real problem . why? well because one flyer dies too fast , most good armies are able to deal with 2-3 flyers .

 

So back to the drawing board again

 

1xsorc lvl 1 undivided

2x10 cultists

2x2oblits

1xhelldrakes

Ig stays the same .

 

Ok this is too close to marine list with IG and comes down to the question of "are the loyalists marines your using better then a helldrake".

 

So maybe we are going at it from the wrong side .

 

we take Ig main

 

 

small blob

3xvet squads

2 russes

1 manticore

2 valks

aegis

 

sorc

10 cultists[always in reserv]

helldrake .

2xoblits

 

Ok , this is a cultists+sorc tax to get a drake and oblit . Marines will do it better.

 

So we do a more static list.

 

 blob

2 vet squads in chimeras

1 russ

manticore

landing pad

2xvendettas

 

1 sorc

10 csm Plas/AC

3 oblits

 

static gunline . pre tau and eldar , maybe possible .post tau and eldar won't work .

 

By now we see that normal stuff won't work , so off to more odd ball builds.

 

Maybe something like this

Sorc lvl 1

2x10 cultists

2xLand raiders

1xdrake

 

2xvets one in chimera

2xrusses

1xvendetta

 

av14 wall . of course better with marines , but could technicly work as long as someone doesn't play against eldar/tau/marines.

[Frater Cornelius]

Azrael is 260+ point for a 4++, where a divination priest/librarian could do almost the same. Hell, even that wargear piece that gives 4++ within 3'' is cheaper and equally as effective if positioned well.

 

As for the lists:

Fristly, lvl 3 DP with mace is 1. too expensive and 2. dumb

If taking a DP, it's either psyker OR relic, getting them both is putting too many eggs in 1 basket. If done right, 2 DP will cost you just above 400 point, which is slightly above 20% of the point cost in 1850, pretty solid if you ask me, especially considering that the IG part will be cheap as dirt for the most part. Also, you do not have to play the DP as melee guys, except when you want to pop that tank with smash. Otherwise, keep them flying with either Skalathrax or majicks.

 

10x cultists is bad in an objective game, 3 die then you gotta take your LD test. 20 at least for 1 blob. Given the comp above, you have 500-600 point left over when done right, which is enough for 35 blobs with flamers or some CSM variant. You can't rely on tabling your opponent.

 

Thirdly, you basically moved away from the original idea and replaced anything you didn't like with stuff you liked and ended up with a completely different concept, which kinda misses the point. The right thing would be to improve upon it.

I mean Oblit and Manticores are very good, but they do not belong in every single list. That mentality of having to take a good unit in every fight just doesn't appeal to me, there's no strategy involved, just hoping for auto win by getting your shiniest toys.

 

Also, it would seem that you are trying to bend things in favour of SM, since you try to compare them with CSM in things that SM do better. Gotta apply Chaos tactics, not try to force Chaos to do what SM do.

 

Think outside the box instead of referring back to vanilla at every turn ;)

[the jeske]

Azrael is 260+ point for a 4++, where a divination priest/librarian

could do almost the same. Hell, even that wargear piece that gives 4++

within 3'' is cheaper and equally as effective if positioned well.

helldrakes and it is almost never a good thing to bunch up models in w40k . Az lets a IG player run a blob with +4inv and top of the usual 3 russed standin on a landing platform . It of course has it own problems , mostly tied to IG being a 5th ed dex and being static shoty and lacking build in interceptors , but that is a separate thing.

 

 

 

If taking a DP, it's either psyker OR relic, getting them both is putting too many eggs in 1 basket.

Taking a DP without the mace makes no sense at all . because unlike other FMC he doesn't have buff powers [fateweaver] doesn't do shoting[hive tyrant] . Just like no one would run a thirster or demon dex DP with just psyker , so is a csm DP not worth taking without the mace . Worse unlike other MC or FMC runing lists , the csm DP can not be spamed and doesn't realy have support units [other FMC to go along , other MC to draw away fire , units that could keep up with him and help and not hinder him in melee or support with fast moving shoting] .

 

 

 

 

Otherwise, keep them flying with either Skalathrax or majicks.

why waste 200+pts on a torrent flamer when you can get it for 170 ? and magic sucks for us . We don't have LL or jaws . taking a 200+ DP to maybe cast one power and then die [melee DP doesn't have to keep LoS to enemy army , one that tries to shot will have to] , is a real waste of points. And let us remember powers are rolled randomly , so there is a good chance he will be out of range , or have the wrong type of witchfire[anti tank vs not tanks etc] .

 

 

 

 

10x cultists is bad in an objective game, 3 die then you gotta take your

LD test. 20 at least for 1 blob. Given the comp above, you have 500-600

point left over when done right, which is enough for 35 blobs with

flamers or some CSM variant. You can't rely on tabling your opponent.

not enough points. to run 2x20 or 3x20 . and when using chaos as ally runing cultists in bigger units then 10 just means your puting a bigger tax on helldrakes or anything else you may have wanted to run from the chaos codex in the IG one.

 

 

 

 

I mean Oblit and Manticores are very good, but they do not belong in every single list.

 

What other hvy support would you take for chaos ? AC havocks? that is already covered by IG and indirect barrage is something that is A good this edition [would be like playing a chaos without a helldrake , if IG didn't take at least one such unit] B chaos doesn't have it . One should add good stuff , that an army can't do , to make it better.

 

 

That mentality of having to take a good unit in every fight just doesn't

appeal to me, there's no strategy involved, just hoping for auto win by

getting your shiniest toys.

yeah , that is probably those no strategy eldar/tau and tau/eldar builds do so well . They just hope for an auto win and somehow end up at the top .

 

 

 

 

Also, it would seem that you are trying to bend things in favour of SM,

since you try to compare them with CSM in things that SM do better.

Gotta apply Chaos tactics, not try to force Chaos to do what SM do.

Show me something other then the helldrake meq+IG don't do better then csm , specialy now that they can triple ally,

counter for IG list?

two grav bikers units +shield+TH on a bike

Turn 1 deployment stalling?

SW drop pods

gunlines?

IG+thunders+razorbacks  or IG+SW+razorbacks

Aggresive builds

biker lists/drop pods main + vets in vendettas

 

Am not pushing SM , I don't play them , but an IG+loyalist marines army has more synergy then a chaos and IG one . when chaos and IG is played one plays two separate armies , there is no cross buffing and everything that csm gives the IG , can be given by allying with an marine codex . I mean even the freaking GK are a better ally , just because they can give faster MC counter and servo skulls.

[Frater Cornelius]

Show me something other then the helldrake meq+IG don't do better then csm

Challenge accepted

I'll come up with some strategies and tactics. More detailed this time though.

But in the end, I am not argueing that CSM+IG beats SM in every way, it couldn't possibly since they are not BB. All I am saying is that it is a valid option/alternative with different ways of playing it with it's own neat tricks.

And it's fun! Remember? Fun? The thing we used to have before we all went competitive?^^

[Ammonius]

I wish I had more to contribute Immersturm, but at the moment, all I can say is that fielding Basilisks and Vindicators together ends up being a problem as your army tends to get strung out, ripe for a drop pod Ironclad in the back lines.

 

 

I know that I am looking forward to the 6th ed IG codex so I can see what further elements I will want to put together to fight alongside my CSM.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay! With the help of logic, a couple friends, playtesing and a small group of MIT scientists I think I can present a suitable response.

Trying to compare CSM + IG with any loyalist tin can + IG by means of certain tactics isn't the way to go, seeing as both sides benefit from IG either in different ways and CSM have to potential to function way different. Instead, let's have a look what IG bring to the table for CSM.

So, what's the first problem that comes to mind when I play CSM? Champion of Chaos special rule... okay IG can't help with that, neither can any other ally.

Next one? Long ranged fire support, mainly AT. Most of CSM stuff is close and personal. In addition, heavy support slot of CSM isn't what I'd like it to be. Havocs are okay. Obliterators are solid but expensive. Seeing as they can not shoot PC shots every turn they are also limited. I'd rather get 'em up close to unlead their TL plasmas on someone.

Defiler? Too expensive for a single BC shot and a handfull of snapshots. He can get into melee but with AV12 he will be krak grenaded to death. Predators are fine for their cost.

Forgefiend? Too expensive for what he does (I dig the Maulerfiend though).

Now, how can IG help with that? Leman Russ squadron! Pack up to 3 of those beasts with BC on a Skyshield Landing Platform and you have yourself a very good long ranged support being able to decimate anything short of 2+ or AV14 (or fliers).

Alternatively, take Manticores or other artillery. Or even Vendettas to hunt tanks. Hell, you can even get a platoon with a good amount of heavy guns.

So IG certainly help CSM when it comes to big guns.

What else does CSM lack? Reliable Anti-Air. Sure, Havocs can get Flak, but that's expensive and easily avoided. Aegis with Quad? Okay, but with S7 shots, you will have trouble getting through that AV12 of some fliers.

Solution? Vendetta. While Heldrake can be great as an air superiority fighter, D3+1 S7 hits isn't as reliable as 3 TLLC. You also have the added benefit of being able to fry tanks and transport scoring allies for last minute objective shenanigans.

Also, if you want to go Horde mode: Guardsmen beat cultists. Period.

Another point that comes to mind is a fast/mobile scoring unit. CSM to not have scoring bikes or jumpers and METAL BAWKSES are either blown up at that point or the content is busy fighting.

In my eyes, a good flier is one that gets objectives (Heldrake notwithstanding). Vendetta with Vets can fill that role. They can zoom around and in the end they can get an objective. Other fast units can contest, but vets will be able to score it.

Now, let’s have a look what general advantages and gimmicks IG brings for Chaos (and any other army for that matter).

Officer of the Fleet hinders enemy reserves. Weaken resolve + fear/shriek. Sly Marbo (Termicide style) is great for his points.

In the end, HQ is cheap, troops are cheap and give us nice additions. Sure, Tau can only give us long ranged support, but nearly not as many pie plates and not as much support since IG can squadron (unit new codex potentially changes this). In the end, I’d go with guard over the others.

But, to come back to the original question: what do CSM+IG do better than any loyalist variant? Well, you could argue about stuff like drop pods vs infiltration until the eagles choke.

The thing they inarguably do better is hordes and chopping. You can get up to 20 marines (15 Raptors), plague zombies and your IG blobs. That’s a lot of bodies for very acceptable cost. And yes, it works. You'll have to get used to it and adjust tactics from the usual SM stuff, but it's worth it.

And chopping? Yes, we have a shooty edition, but outside of prescience bloodclaw spam, no marine can live up to the carnage a big CSM blob can wreak in melee.

Yes you could argue that as an SM played you would ally with guard for the same units. But in the end, you use them to a different effect for a different reason, seeing as an CSM force can be build differently as opposed to an SM force.

So, before someone comes in and says, things above can be done better with SM? No, you can build a different army with similar features but playing CSM as SM or the other way around won't help ya. Besides, this thread is about CSM allies, not SM.

[disease]

Charcaradons do choppy better than CSM. Even than berserkers. And if you live in the dark ages and have forgeworldphobia, then almost any other chapter will be better in close combat on account of drop pods and reliable delivery, and the fact that CSM break and can be swept.

 

I'm afraid I have I agree with jeske on this one. Loyalists do everything better.

[the jeske]

 

And chopping? Yes, we have a shooty edition, but outside of prescience

bloodclaw spam, no marine can live up to the carnage a big CSM blob can

wreak in melee

can you get more in to detail about how you get bigger then 10 man squads in to melee on a regular basis ?

[Someblindmarineplayer]

First off i didnt read this entire post, im just here to add my 2 cents as an CSM/IG player. Secondly jeske annoys me a lot and always seems to drag people down. Anyways i wouldent ally chaos with anybody in a game 1500 points or less. Usually when i run my guard with my chaos its a commissar/ camo cloak to man the quad-gun in my ADL. I take a penal legion because their like expensive cultists but really their just convicted rapists, thives, and murderers. Then there is Bane... bane is a highly converted Vanquisher battle tank with a commander. In my chaos i always run 10 nurgle bikers and a lord on a bike. And usually 20-40 marines, 10-35 cultists, 3-6 obliterators, 5 havocs with 4 autocannons. There really is no synergy but if you like what you play you can usually make it work if you study diffrent

tactics.

[Frater Cornelius]

Charcaradons do choppy better than CSM. Even than berserkers. And if you live in the dark ages and have forgeworldphobia, then almost any other chapter will be better in close combat on account of drop pods and reliable delivery, and the fact that CSM break and can be swept.

 

Good call on the fishy people. I like their CT very much indeed. However, Wolves do it better. Get 2x 15 bloodclaws with free flamers and axe with TDA PF/SS WGBL to soak up some wounds and challenges and a rune priest with divination for prescience for each. There, at least 40+ attacks on the charge reroll to hit. And a big enough blob to not die when shot a few times.

The biggest issue I have with fish people is that you can still only take 10 a piece, making them easy to reduce to a useless state.

As for FW stuff, I have quite a bit, but I'd rather not involve it here, since different armies get different amount of love from FW (incedently, chaos contemptor is still better than loyalist :3)

 

As for delivery? Hope their asses sprout wings and fly them to the sherbert kingdom...

Alternatively, you have Huron for cheap access to infiltration. Or better yet, there is this ancient tactics called footslogging. Edgy, I know! Having squads of 15+ members will arrive mostly intact against most armies bar Tau and Deldar with their mass ap2 dakka, because there are simply too many bodies to chew through. For added bonus, get a cheap Maulerfiend for 125 and use him as distraction/cover. Better yet, buy a rhino and keep it in front of the marines to block LoS. Sure, you risk giving away first blood. But it's not the make a break part in most games.

The most important think however is target saturation. Only one 20 man squad will get shot to processed meat, but several of those with a few big distraction will force the opponent to choose or to thin out his fire.

 

Here's an example: yesterday, I played two 1850 matches against crimson fists gunline. He had kantor, some termies, a handfull of sternguard and devastators (one of them with flakk), aegis line with quad gun, some sniper scouts camping objective in house and couple thunderfire canons.

I brought 2x 15 CSM with pistol + CCW and fearless, 10 slaanesh raptors with slaanesh lord with skalathrax, zhufor the impaler with 4 combi plasma termies, 3 combi melta termicide, one heldrake, 2x 2 nurgle oblits and cultists with aegis line with com relay.

raptors with lord and the csm squads footslogged, cultists camped home objective and the rest did a deep strike.

To sum it up, won both games holding majority of objectives with all the secondary ones (bar first blood in the second game) and almost tabling him the first game. Zhufor got me a couple extra points and reliably murdering kantor. footsloggers took some casualties on the way, but when they were in rapid fire range of sternguard, deep strikes came in and fired them to hell, leaving the blobs free to clean objectives on the charge. Sure, he managed to snipe out one fearless icon with barrage, but since they were nicely spread, he didnt kill more than 3-5 per squad. Raptors made short work of thunderfires.

So yeah, it works, you just need adequate forces supporting them. Only armies I see this being difficult is DE due to mobility and Tau due to too much dakka.

[daboarder]

Burning brand, baleflamer, riptide, bladestorm, serpent shield, grav gun, sun cannon, leman russ, fire prism, plasma......

 

 

what was that about trouble killing marines?