Heresy Dream Team

[Kais Klip]

Diverging from the Horus-importance thread, I've been mulling over a straightforward question; which 9 would you want at your side to save the galaxy from the False Emperor?

 

It would be smoother to base facts on what already happened, ie Fulgrim would still Ascend if he sided with the traitorous powers, similarly Sanguinius would beat Horus in a one to one confrontation, much like Ferrus vs Manus provided the conditions would not be altered too drastically.

 

Well then, dirty heretics, assemble!

 

For one;

 

Alpharius & Corax; to take worlds without Astartes and frustrate enemy regrouping plans.

Vulkan & Perturabo; for the cleansing of Terran catacombs and snuffing of underground resistance (heh).

Perturabo & Dorn; Comfortingly clinically sane chaps to tear down the Golden Gates

Magnus: to die cancelling out the Siggilites and Emperor's witchery.

Sanguinius & Horus: pushing the Palace beachhead, then tag teaming the Emperor into the warp, empire figurehead (we have angels on our side) and... well because Horus.

 

BONUS ROUND: method of turning each primarch. I'll need to mull this one over, because Dorn...

[Daddywarcrimes]

If I had to pick 9 Legions to tear down the Emperor, here's my dream team.

 

1)  Sons of Horus.  He's the glue that holds the whole thing together.

2)  Thousand Sons.  Despite being puppets of Tzeentch, they have a mastery of the warp that dwarfs what the Word Bearers could do.

3)  Iron Warriors.  They're good at what they do.

4)  Wolves.  They're a hammer legion that can be sent to go deal with a problem and left alone with a degree of trust that it will get done.

5)  Death Guard. They're another hammer legion, along with the Wolves and Iron Warriors, that will crush whatever they're pointed at, rather than wander off to do their own thing.  All three legions can be tasked with something, sent off to do it, and left alone with little to no micromanagement.

6)  Alpha Legion.  I'd want them on my side so that I don't have to fight against them.

7)  Blood Angels.  No better legion to pair up with the Sons of Horus.

8)  Imperial Fists.  Smart, tenacious fighters who'll do what they're told, just like the Iron Warriors, Wolves, and Death Guard.

9)  Iron Hands.  See IF, IW, DG, and Wolves.

 

In short, the legions I wouldn't want would be the ones with a tendency to wander off and do their own thing.  The Ksons are an exception to this, since they're so powerful that their discipline problem can be overlooked.

[Kais Klip]

Both of us will have some real numbers to face though, with the Ultramarines and Word bearers bringing around 400,000 Astartes to the fold just between themselves, unless Magnus could conjure up Lorgar's warp veil, which is doubtful.

 

Fulgrim and Angron would for sure kill atleast 3, if not 4 of our Primarchs before the fight is done just by themselves, and Corax paired with the Khan would be one serious prick in the rear in the concluding stages.

 

Not sure what exactly Curze would do, what I know is that he would have a field day on the high horse he would suddenly find himself on. Him and the Lion would form one hell of a tag team, the latter might even rival pretty boy's kill count of our boys.

 

Despite my natural affinity, I do remember Horus' word of wanting Corax rather than Alpharius, so the XXth might be a bit redundant, especially with the fact that they will probably plot against the cause just as they did in the real thing.

 

At the end, with my list I'm honestly expecting the only survivors to be Horus or Sanguinius, either one providing an excellent figurehead, and one of the elusives (Corax or Alpharius) to form the secret police to hold the whole thing together and stamp out any insurgency (looking at you, Khan).

 

Edit # 243: we have to remember that Russ' legion is what, 60,000 warriors at last count even with the number adjust. At best they would be minor play execu- ahem, enforcers along the lines of Curze.

[Kol Saresk]

Both of us will have some real numbers to face though, with the Ultramarines and Word bearers bringing around 400,000 Astartes to the fold just between themselves, unless Magnus could conjure up Lorgar's warp veil, which is doubtful.

Actually it'd be closer to five since the Ultramarines were around 250,000 and the Word Bearers were of roughly equal strength, give or take a few thousand.

 

Curze would definitely specialize in disrupting enemy formations. You want an organized machinery of war to just fall apart in chaos? These guys are your monkey wrench. Just point these guys at the Alpha Legion and you can almost guarantee Alpharius will be doing Shatner impressions.

 

"CUUUUUUUUUUUUURZE! CUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURZE!"

 

*screen slowly pulls back to reveal a planet, before fading into blackness

[Chief Captain Redd]

1.) Dorn: Tactical acumen and flexibility.

2.) Russ: controlled murder make, and a strong counter attack force.

3.) Magnus: A legion full of sorcerers.

4.) Ferrus: Brutal Warriors and brilliant scientists.

5.) Corax: Guerrilla warfare.

6.) Vulkan: Artificers, plus it's fun watching them burn everything.

7.) Khan: Watch them run, like a spear through bare flesh.

8.) Alpharius: subterfuge.

9.) Guillimen: Numbers, logistics and an empire builder for rebuilding after the war.

[Kais Klip]

But see I've always thought of the Night Lords' affinity to be more useless against other fellow Astartes than any of the other Legions. Short of the primarch himself (understandibly) terrifying custodians along with cry baby Dornie, how exactly would Night Lords differ from the Raven Guard in their operations? I just can't imagine any legion halting an offensive because the Night Lords are there, like perhaps the Army would. At best, I can see them luring the enemy into rash actions like they did to the First, but not much else.

 

Edit for Redd's post: I don't see any boon in favour of the Khan, and with him you have a full third of your Primarchs dealing in the shadows more than anywhere else, without the White Scars actually coming close to the effectiveness of Corax or Alpharius. After reading Scars I'm still struggling to see the purpose of the fith legion, although maybe that's their point.

[Russ Brother 92]

I'll bite :)

 

Dream Team - Primarchs alone first (I'll update when at a pc);

 

Horus - badass in combat, great theocratic ruler and with the 'right' Mournival very balanced.

 

Ferrus Manus - yes he became a tad unhinged but he was a mighty warrior, he was staunchly loyal and if teamed with Fulgrim you have a bromance that even Brokeback can't beat.

 

Fulgrim - as with Ferrus, his skill with a blade is nigh unsurpassed, he's actually a very good commander and with Ferrus they make a killer combo.

 

Khan - his mixture of tough, skilled warriors and the exponential speed in his strategies are key to winning the Short War.

 

Russ - He's a brutal, no-nonsense warrior, not just a leader of men but a true Warrior-King leading front the front but unlike Angron who thinks more of personal glory and savagery, Russ compounds his warrior nature with an acute tactical finesse that allows him and his forces to react with the fluidity of battle. (Did I say warrior enough?!?) :p

 

Dorn - You can trust him and his Legion to stand at the worst breach imaginable and hold against anything the warp spawned gods can throw at them, equally they will march relentlessly into any Forlorn Hope where even Astartes would hold back.

 

Perturabo - The fire to Dorn cold steel, together they would break and hold any piece of rock in the known (or indeed unknown) galaxy.

 

Guilliman - yes he may be seen as the semi-imperious, self-loving aficionado of all things Ultramar - however he also holds tie on the largest Legion, one of the most stable parts of space (short of Terra itself) and is a darn good tactician - all things you need if you're to have a solid staging ground or (as these things often do) a good place to fall back and marshal your remaining forces for a guerilla campaign and the commencement of the Long War.

 

Corax - my final choice, he's rough and cares not for 'protocol', he'd rather stick the knife in your throat from behind and know your dead than the sniper's bullet from afar and have to come back later - I'd rather have him on MY team than worry about him behind my lines, making ghosts - plus he's probably the only one short of Curze who would be able to take on Alpharius/Omegon and come back in one piece (sort of - we know how it played out last time...).

 

There we go - my aim with these guys would certainly be a Short War, with the numbers and resources to make it into the Long War if necessary.

[Kol Saresk]

But see I've always thought of the Night Lords' affinity to be more useless against other fellow Astartes than any of the other Legions. Short of the primarch himself (understandibly) terrifying custodians along with cry baby Dornie, how exactly would Night Lords differ from the Raven Guard in their operations? I just can't imagine any legion halting an offensive because the Night Lords are there, like perhaps the Army would. At best, I can see them luring the enemy into rash actions like they did to the First, but not much else.

 

 

Terrorwise? Not much more than the Raven Guards' affinity for creating confusion.

 

And the difference is that the Raven Guard are a precision needle. A small prick here, a small prick there, eventually the whole thing will fall apart. Small, precise movements that can disrupt vital movements.

 

The Night Lords are something of a drill. They find a small hole and then shove their way into it, destroying the foundations. The results look similar, although how it's done is different.

 

However, just because Astartes are harder to break mentally doesn't mean they can't. Just look at the Iron Hands following Manus' death or the Blood Angels at Signus. After all, look at the Stockholm Raven. Kind of difficult to call him the picture of mental health.

[daveNYC]

Guilliman: Organization and numbers.

Lorgar: Numbers and they're true believers.

Magnus: Magic!

Alpharius and Omegon: They cheat.

Both Dorn and Perturabo: Whose going to fortify your palace now little Emperor man?  Plus their whole affinity for knocking buildings down.

Curze: He crazy!  Plan there would be to have his guys spread out and bring various productive loyal planets to a screaching halt.  Like Alpha Legion but with more entrails.

Death Guard: Sturdy and reliable.  Relatively numerous too, I think.

Blood Angels: Similar benefits to the World Eaters but with less crazy, and lets face it, with Curze on board, we're all stocked up on crazy.

 

I'd also put A/O in charge of the whole mess.  Not because they're super crazy genius types (relatively speaking, for Primarchs), but because they wouldn't do some stupid siege followed by mano a mano combat with the Emperor.  Virus bombs, followed by nukes, followed by cyclonic warheads to break it into pieces.  Alternate plan: Get Perturabo to build giant rocket engines to de-orbit the moon.

[Brother Captain Lucian]

Perturabo - He's the man to bring down the walls.

Lion El'Johnson - Finest general (imho), and a large Legion.

Corax - a sane version of Curze, targeting supply lines etc.

Horus - Glue, as mentioned above.

Mortarion - No one better to take storm the walls which Perturabo has broken

Vulkan - maybe except this one?

Khan - along with Corax would be fun times.

Magnus - a legion of sorcerers, what's not to like.

 

As for turning them..

 

I have no idea atm.

[Legatus]

Guilliman plus any eight others. Done deal.

[UltraCaptain]

The 9 best:

 

1. Ultramarines - Because of their numbers.

2. Word Bearers - Because of their numbers.

3. Imperial Fist - in a war, you need to take down and defend fortresses like there is no tomorrow. Planetary defence, fortresses and titans are all more valueable and deadly than a legion itself.

4. Iron Warrior - Despite being a bad primarch, we still have fortresses standing (check above)

5. White Scar - The random element, which can strike unknown, against larger force, and do more harm to the enemy than themselves. Although you might not depend a 100% on them, i expect that this 'dream team' assume that their loyality is with the team.

6. Black Legion - Intelligence and numbers. Simply because you don't want Horus leading the enemy force. Not the best leader though

7. Blood Angels - numbers, dependable. Although they have a flaw

8. Space Wolves - controlled berserkers. Deadly and determinated assault force.

9. Raven Guard - despite how it all turned out with Corax, he is still deadly, determinated and more intelligent than most of his brothers. The 8 other legions lack that player, who can hide in the dark.

 

Summing it up:

You have the Ultramarines, Black Legion, Raven Guard and Word Bearers as empire builders. Actually Imperial Fists too.

You have Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists whom you place defending and attacking fortresses. Simple job for great specialists that would suck at anything else, yet one of the most important things in a war.

Space Wolves, Blood Angels, White Scar, Raven Guard and Black Legion are all deadly assault forces in their own right.

You have the numbers from Ultramarines and Word Bearers, numbers means you can cover more places faster.

I would personally pick Guilliman as the adminstrative role of leader with moving supplies and forces.

Horus to command important battles, lead general.

 

So I might have made my choices on few simple criterias: Numbers, loyality and sanity. The goals is to win, first of all, second goal to have one empire with peace instead of small empires in eternal war.. Assumingly :p

 

The why not legions:

World Eaters - unreliable to follow plans, as prooved

Night Lords - their speciality is nothing the other legions wouldnt enduce in a civile war conflict

Alpha Legion - you can't depend on their them and their motivations

Thousand Sons - small legion, corrupt. While they possess large psyhic abilities, the sability of both Magnus and his legion is more damaging to a co-ordinated military force.

Iron Hand - too subborn, ineffective, arrogant. Prefer losses of human, vehicles, astares and the primarchs own life - instead of lost pride.

Salamander - simply too small to matter, although they would be one of the big players on the opposing team

Emperors Children - fair player, but i wouldnt depend on them. Although they understand tactic, great warrios, their mind is all about pride, arrogance and self-centered short-term goals.

Death Guards - you can depend on them for killing the emperor, but not for building an empire or staying loyal. All about Mortathions bad childhood. But surely their poison and rad weapons will be though to beat in direct battle.

Dark Angels - not sure if they have a disadvantag, trustful to some degree, stable and all. But because the lion refuse any leader but the emperor, I doubt he would find peace with anyone else as leader - hence not dependable

[Wade Garrett]

World Eaters, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Night Lords, White Scars, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Word Bearers.

 

Restraint? Strategy? Anything remotely resembling subtlety? HA! This is a MANLY heresy! Rampaging technobarbarians TORCHING entire Segmentums with PHOSPHEX and BASILISK CANNONS because SPYING and LOGISTICS are for CRYBABIES and there is ONLY WAR and BROFISTS FROM KHORNE!!!

[Legatus]

 

Guilliman: Organization and numbers.

 

 

Both of us will have some real numbers to face though, with the Ultramarines and Word bearers bringing around 400,000 Astartes to the fold just between themselves

 

 

Ultramarines - Because of their numbers.

 

Such answers seem to miss the point. The Ultramarines only got so big for a reason. Well, two reasons. A better recruitment organisation, and fewer casualties during their campaigns. The threat of the Ultramarines and why they were diverted all the way to the other side of the galaxy was not a numerical factor. Even if Guilliman had voluntarily stopped the recruitment to not go over the initial Legion strength, he would still have been considered one of the biggest threats of the loyalists. (And as an aside, he would also still have ended up with the highest number of liberated worlds.)

[Kol Saresk]

World Eaters, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Night Lords, White Scars, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Word Bearers.

 

Restraint? Strategy? Anything remotely resembling subtlety? HA! This is a MANLY heresy! Rampaging technobarbarians TORCHING entire Segmentums with PHOSPHEX and BASILISK CANNONS because SPYING and LOGISTICS are for CRYBABIES and there is ONLY WAR and BROFISTS FROM KHORNE!!!

That's a wave of destruction I can get behind.

[jeremy1391]

Imperial fists and iron warriors

Word bearers and ultra marines

Raven guard and alpha legion

Dark andgels and iron hands

Sons of horus.

 

Bringing the most numbers

Siege masters

Spec ops/ insurgents

Most ancient and powerful wargear

And the most charismatic primarch.

 

/imperium

[Gorkimedes]

1)Guilliman- Largest legion and a base of power that the traitors otherwise wouldn't have.

 

2+3) Dorn+ Perturabo- Leaves no one of comparable skill to fortify the throne world and its possible Dorn is already on Terra.

 

4)Horus- Same reason he was integral to the actual heresy. Inspiring, holds everyone together yada yada. 

 

5)Sanguinius- Supposedly one of the fiercest legions around and without him I don't believe the loyalists have any big inspiring figures left.

 

6)Magnus- Super Psykers.

 

7) Lion El'Jonson- Great general, one of the more successful legions.

 

8) Mortatrion-.... Super tough?

 

9) Lorgar- Not as big as the Ultramarines but still a giant blob of space marines.

[Olis]

Great topic idea, Kais Klip.

 

So, for me, I take into consideration strategy, numbers and reliability.

 

The Nine Chosen

1) Guilliman: Well, choice number one is the Warrior King, who ticks all the boxes for me. The big plus going for Guilliman is the sheer numbers that he commands. Alloyed with his tactical and strategic acumen, he's an obvious choice. Perhaps even the Magister Militant/Warmaster of the group, imho.

 

2) Lorgar: Another contender via numbers alone. Can pull off a large scale ambush relatively well (despite failing to destroy the Ultramarines at Calth). 

 

3) Dorn: Two out of three for Dorn, but this time it's the sheer numbers that he lacks. Siege warfare is almost a certainty in this scenario. Picking both him and Perturabo would deny the 'loyalists' an exceedingly important resource. Also, there's a reason he was appointed the Magister Militant of the Imperium during the Heresy. ;)

 

4) Perturabo: Having a second siege specialist (who just so happens to have a Legion brimming with tanks and artillery) really would make a difference, especially in concert with his rival - Dorn.

 

5) Alpharius/Omegon: Strategy, via the murkier aspects of war (infiltration, covert ops, assassination) makes Alpharius/Omegon too tempting to leave out. 

 

6) Mortarion: If anyone knows anything about attritional warfare, it's Morty. I'm not averse to the use of chem weapons, either. 

 

7) Corax: With a propensity for fast strikes and aspects of guerrilla warfare, the Raven Guard fill a spot sorely needed in this group. So far we have a very large, very stubborn and unwieldy blob of marines - extra maneuverability is just the ticket.  

 

8) Sanguinius: Very much a more stable choice than the World Eaters. The Blood Angels can do much of what the World Eaters can do, without having the whole 'let's-charge-them-anyway-because-of-the-Butcher's-Nails' drawback. Plus, Sanguinius is very much the candidate for Emperor numero dos taht his brothers are not.

 

9) Jaghatai Khan: Again, a primarch with a thing for hit and run attacks, although more of a cavalry man than Corax - adding to the numbers already given by the Raven Guard is probably a good idea. Also, jetbikes. 

[DuskRaider]

Hmmm... if I could construct my own version of the Heresy.... Alright. 

 

#1. Horus / Sons of Horus: I'd keep Horus in charge. He was the most charismatic fighter, he was the best tactician, and he had the element of surprise in that the Emperor NEVER thought it would happen. The Legion itself lends itself well to Blitzkrieg and Alpha Strike campaigns. Sever the enemy's head and watch as the body withers.

 

#2. Russ / Space Wolves: I love the World Eaters. They're one of my favorite Legions. But honestly, if we put the numbers together the XIIth should have been wiped out well before the Siege of Terra. The Space Wolves, while perhaps not as skilled in hand-to-hand, have discipline on their side. They can be savage and they can raze a planet, but they can do so with a level head. 

 

#3. Perturabo / Iron Warriors: Say what you want about Perturabo's paranoia, he's easily one of the most intelligent Primarchs in the Imperium. He was the architect of some of the most impregnable fortresses built in the Imperium, and was also the one who could take them all down. Horus needs a tactical genius he can rely on more (and honestly, I think he would have prevailed had he kept Perturabo closer as an advisor).

 

#4. Mortarion / Death Guard: The XIVth, and their Primarch, are probably one of the most pragmatic Legions in the Imperium. They're soldiers, their Astartes are probably the most well-rounded out of any Legion, and they are loyal to their Primarch / leader. They will overcome any obstacle through sheer resilience, and what they can't stop with determination they will engulf in chemical flames. Mortarion is the quintessential Infantrymen's General, and his planning is almost preternatural.

 

#5. Alpharius - Omegon / Alpha Legion: Not all warfare takes place on the battlefield, and having a Legion who excels in the art of subterfuge is a valued asset. The twin-Primarchs need to be closely watched to avoid any back stabbing, but they are invaluable for intelligence gathering and sabotage.

 

#6. Curze / Night Lords: These are the guys I'd heavily deploy against Imperial Army / PDF resistance. Sure, they'll also have an effect on Astartes opposition, but they really shine against the weaker enemy. They could accompany Alpha Legion operatives planet side for infiltration, sabotage, and internal destruction.

 

#7. Sanguinius / Blood Angels: The main reason I'd say the Blood Angels would be a valuable asset is mostly the same I can say for Space Wolves. They've got the ferocity you need, but the discipline and loyalty you require. Also, Sanguinius makes an excellent runner up for Warmaster / Emperor were anything to happen to Horus, thus ensuring the Civil War can continue.

 

#8. Jaghatai Khan / White Scars: While unpredictable and not always the most obedient, the Khan & Co. make up for it in lightning raids. Their preference of war makes them a great compliment for forces like Death Guard, who can support the anvil to the Scars' hammer. His loyalty to Horus makes him more stable in this lineup as well, which would lend itself more to quell any potential usurping.

 

#9. Guilliman / Utramarines: This one was hard to throw in here. Guilliman is obviously an excellent General, commands the largest Legion in the Imperium, but also holds the keys to the largest cluster of planets whom swear fealty to him just as much as the Imperium itself. This makes for a great base of Command, it's vast populations help turn the gears of war, and there are plenty of recruits for each of the Legions to choose from when not recruiting from captured planets whose population / security may be compromised. I'd be worried about Guilliman's ambition, however, and he could quickly become this lineup's Fulgrim in that he would sacrifice anyone for personal gain (at least that's how I'd see him going).

 

I was going to choose Magnus / Thousand Sons at first, but due to the rampant mutation proliferating the Legion, I saw them just as much as a liability as I did an asset. If they found themselves in the fray for an extended amount of time, their Legion would suffer casualties just as much from their Flesh Change as they would from enemy attack.

[karden00]

 

 

Guilliman: Organization and numbers.

 

> 

Both of us will have some real numbers to face though, with the Ultramarines and Word bearers bringing around 400,000 Astartes to the fold just between themselves

 

 

Ultramarines - Because of their numbers.

 

Such answers seem to miss the point. The Ultramarines only got so big for a reason. Well, two reasons. A better recruitment organisation, and fewer casualties during their campaigns. The threat of the Ultramarines and why they were diverted all the way to the other side of the galaxy was not a numerical factor. Even if Guilliman had voluntarily stopped the recruitment to not go over the initial Legion strength, he would still have been considered one of the biggest threats of the loyalists. (And as an aside, he would also still have ended up with the highest number of liberated worlds.)

 

 

Im glad someone at least remembered that the XIIIth wasnt just a blumbering blob of bodacious blue. 

 

Seriously guys, logistics. Logistics! LOGISTICS!!!

 

Logistics...

[Darrell]

 

 

 

 

Guilliman: Organization and numbers.

>

Both of us will have some real numbers to face though, with the Ultramarines and Word bearers bringing around 400,000 Astartes to the fold just between themselves

Ultramarines - Because of their numbers.

Such answers seem to miss the point. The Ultramarines only got so big for a reason. Well, two reasons. A better recruitment organisation, and fewer casualties during their campaigns. The threat of the Ultramarines and why they were diverted all the way to the other side of the galaxy was not a numerical factor. Even if Guilliman had voluntarily stopped the recruitment to not go over the initial Legion strength, he would still have been considered one of the biggest threats of the loyalists. (And as an aside, he would also still have ended up with the highest number of liberated worlds.)

Im glad someone at least remembered that the XIIIth wasnt just a blumbering blob of bodacious blue.

 

Seriously guys, logistics. Logistics! LOGISTICS!!!

 

Logistics...

What can Blue do for you?

[Kais Klip]

 

 

 

 

Guilliman: Organization and numbers.

 

 

> 

Both of us will have some real numbers to face though, with the Ultramarines and Word bearers bringing around 400,000 Astartes to the fold just between themselves

 

Ultramarines - Because of their numbers.

 

Such answers seem to miss the point. The Ultramarines only got so big for a reason. Well, two reasons. A better recruitment organisation, and fewer casualties during their campaigns. The threat of the Ultramarines and why they were diverted all the way to the other side of the galaxy was not a numerical factor. Even if Guilliman had voluntarily stopped the recruitment to not go over the initial Legion strength, he would still have been considered one of the biggest threats of the loyalists. (And as an aside, he would also still have ended up with the highest number of liberated worlds.)

 

 

Im glad someone at least remembered that the XIIIth wasnt just a blumbering blob of bodacious blue. 

 

Seriously guys, logistics. Logistics! LOGISTICS!!!

 

Logistics...

Looks like the setting's resident mathhammer warrior might need to order more supplies; a third seems to have been pinched in the dark, another subverted (love the Praetor pattern, bit tight 'round the chest, send bigger plate and smaller helms, luv - alfa bro's fo'eva xoxo) and the last water ration crates appear to have soiled themsleves and are making a wailing sound.

[Wade Garrett]

Honestly I think the people picking the Alpha Legion are way off base.

 

A leader needs to know where his subordinates are and what they are doing. That being one of the things that differentiates an army from a rampaging mob.

 

Canonically, Horus had no clue where the Twentieth was and what sorts if devilment they were getting up to...AND NEITHER DID ALPHARIUS AND OMEGON.

 

People talk about the Night Lords and World Eaters being completely unreliable, but for all their "ALL UR DUDEZ WUZ IR DUDEZ AL A LONG" shenanigans the Alphas are imploding as badly if not worse than the two infamous "Our daddy's bonkers" Legions.

 

Hydra my foot...their symbol should be a bunch of snakes all biting each other. Or an Ouroboros whose expression somehow conveys it thinks it has another snake by the tail.

[Kais Klip]

I think in more lists than not it's rather a case of people wanting to avoid hearing their mother whisper "I am Alpharius" in their ear after the good-night tuck.

[Wade Garrett]

Eh, since I've already pooh-poohed the Night Lords and World Eaters, I just don't have enough mind numbing terror left to spare for worrying about a possible retaliation by the Alphas.

 

Something else to consider is the danger of loading your side down with type A Alpha males who all think they know best about everything.

 

A Lion/Guilliman/Horus/Dorn team up could easily end with a wounded Emperor staring in amazement as the four traitors brawl with each other over who will strike the killing blow and claim the crown.

 

(See Dorn vs Guilliman over the Codex Astartes, Lion stabbing Russ in the chest, etc.)

 

I think it would be wiser to pick up guys like Ferrous, Mortarion, Russ, Lorgar, and Perturabo...Primarchs who would accept a junior role and not take it as a reason to pull out the backstabbing knifes and start sharpening them.

 

Assuming Chaos doesn't make formerly sensible guys like Russ and Ferrous go full underpants on head insane like Fulgrim.