Heresy Dream Team

[Joeyray]

hmmmm 
1. Ultramarines
2. Sons of Horus
3. Imperial Fists
4. Iron Warriors
5. Dark Angels
6. World Eaters
7. Death Guard
8. Alpha Legion
9. Salamanders

I want a healthy mix of Martial strength and a few cards up my sleeve (I.e WE , AL and DA). I see my ideal heresy as more of a Putsch so I wish to maintain the image of order replacing the old system.

[Wade Garrett]

Now there's a thought...who WOULDN'T I pick for my side?

 

AL, NL, and WE are right out. Let Malcador deal with herding those particular cats.

 

Vulkan and the Salamanders I will leave alone simply because of the hilarity that should ensue if he has to cooperate with Curze or Angron during the Heresy.

 

Fulgrim. Even before he got the laer sword he was carrying around a truckload of "Me and my guys are the specialest snowflakes EVAR" issues. Again, let Malcador put up with his crap.

 

Johnson is too proud to be a good lieutenant and too suspicious and bitter to lead his brothers to Terra.

 

For all their warpcraft, the Thousand Sons are a tiny Legion and they were dead weight for both sides through most of the Heresy. Enjoy defending Terra with semi sentient blobs of goo in power armor, Mags!

 

No Khan, he has many of the same issues that plagued the first three to get the boot. Coordination and logistics matter when one is conquering a galaxy, and Khan's propensity for haring off on his own aids neither.

 

And now that the low hanging fruit has been picked off, we get to the most difficult cut of all.

 

No Horus. Mainly because I intend to take Guilliman as my main strategistizer guy, and Horus will never bend the knee to another, he either sits in the big chair or dies trying for it.

 

So, my ideal team is Guilliman, Lorgar, Dorn, Ferrous, Russ, Perturabo, Corax, Mortarion, and Sanguinus.

 

And I seem to have committed the very crime I worried about earlier, that Guilliman/Dorn/Sanguinus power trio can turn nasty very easily, especially once Chaos taint is added to the equation.

 

I might do better to toss Dorn for Vulkan, while this deprives me of my cunning plan to sow dissension among the Imperial ranks it leaves Guilliman with only one Primarch who won't accede to his command. Plus Dorn and Curze will get along just fabulously I'm sure.

 

Dorn gets the nod over Sanguinus because of his and Perturabo's rivalry. If you put them both on your team you either subordinate Pert to Rogal and turn the IV into a ticking time bomb, or you elevate the Lord of Iron and darkly contemplate how the VII will react to being slighted in such a way.

[depthcharge12]

Lorgar - simply put, he gets :censored done, thats why. Big legion and BF ships too

 

 

Lion - sometimes autonomy is good as micromanaging your forces might upset other primarchs, see: Emperor, The. Allowing the Lion on the team gives a big boost to cold strategy (having another Perturabo cant hurt), he also learns from his battles and isnt too stubborn to try different tactics, marines have lots of experience and ties as being first legion.

 

 

Perturabo - he knows how to do both offense and defense, knows the price of victory, easy to exploit ego against VIIth

 

 

Angron - you need spear chasers to weaken the enemy, shock factor, and well he gets :censored done too and takes 100 grey knight termies and some space wolves with him

 

 

Mortarion - infantryman's general, strong willed and dedicated to his men

 

 

Fulgrim - despite being a namby pamby, he is wonderful strategen and has highest primarch kill ratio among all other primarchs, pride easy to manipulate

 

 

Sanguinus - has charisma, if legion held at gunpoint then he will sacrifice himself, impressive fighter, legion is quite powerful

 

 

Guilliman - largest legion, wonderful with logistics, tactically adaptive, cool headed

 

 

Ferrous - keeps Fulgrims excesses in check, DARK MECHANICUM SHENANIGANS, loads of experience, knows his place is grand scheme of things

[Scribe]

Horus - We may not have seen exactly why, but there is a reason hes Warmaster.

Curze - Just let him do his thing. Destabilize things, because he cant be left unattended, and he did run around keeping the Lion in check.

Angron - Hate on him all you want, he had numbers, and he simply smashed things. There is a value in that. Hes the gun that Horus and Rob can point and click.

Ferrous - Determination, to the point of insanity, check.

Perturabo - A workman like effort. No mailing it in for this guy.

Rob - Balance out some of the crazies I have picked. :] 

Russ - Its not the wolves fault Abnett made them the 'Executioners'.

Sangy - Kick ass in a fight, highly successful Legion.

Mortarion - Hold the line boys.

 

Yeah...thats a dream team right there...

 

vs Lorgar, Khan, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Alpharius, Corax, Magnus, Dorn, Lion? Cake walk :p

[FunkyMonkey]

Horus - because he knows how to tie the traitors together

Perturabo - he has skill in siege and fortress building, and the Iron Warriors are an all around hard hitting force

Ferrus Manus - tough hard hitting force with many nice war engines.  

Mortarion - The legion's true grit factor is really needed.  I think IW, IH, DG will be the really foundational core of the main line of most engagements

Lorgar - has numbers and is a true believer in the cause.  I think he'd make a better subordinate than Guiliman.  We'd need to shaft Erebus, though.

Corax - asymmetrical warfare specialist who is more dependable than Curze or Alpharius/Omegon

Leman Russ - I'd keep Russ as a specialist force to deal with unforseen contingencies.  Basically, he'd be my "fixer" 

Sanguinius - the Blood Angels are a great assault force that would work well with the SoH.  Also, having Sanguinius and his angelic goodness is a huge morale booster

Magnus - his small army of sorcerers are nice, but I really want Magnus and the Corvidae Cult's divination skills.

 

I think we got this.

[daveNYC]

Legions I definitely wouldn't pick:

1) Emperor's Children: As mentioned earlier, they all think they're super special.  They'd be horrible to deal with on a large scale and they have serious issues with modifying their plans if things go wrong, Murder and Laer are two prime examples of that.

2) Dark Angels: There are STDs that have better interpersonal skills than the Lion.  Plus, while he's absolutely brilliant in any single battle, he's more than capable of being led by the nose over the course of a campaign.  Has a serious case of not seeing the forest because of all the trees.  Feel free to come up with a Caliban joke there.

3) Space Wolves: Also not a particularly large legion.  Tough and reliable, but they don't bring anything particularly special to the table and knocking off Terra is going to take bodies.  Plus you know that getting Russ, Fulgrim, and The Lion in the same room will drop all their IQs by about 500 points as they start jockeying for leadership.

[Cactus]

I started by discounting a few unreliable wingnuts. Curze, Alpharius and the Khan can't be relied on; Perturabo has a massive chip on his shoulder for the Emperor so I'll leave him out and hope he destabilises the loyalists. Ferrus is a stubborn, bone-headed fool so he's out. Vulkan's too nice.

 

So who do I want? Guilliman's an obvious choice, the master of logistics, brings plenty of manpower and all the resources of Ultramar. I want Magnus' sorcery to give me an edge in forseeing the future. The Death Guard are resilient and brutal. The Imperial Fists are in for similar reasons. Everybody loves Sanguinius and the Blood Angels have a successful record. The Lion may be a touch paranoid and not a people person but he is a military genius. Corax brings some more subtle talents and is sane.

 

Now it gets difficult. Of the remaining five I'm wary of Lorgar, Fulgrim and Angron because they are (or soon will be) in thrall to Chaos, which leaves me with Russ and Horus.

 

Who's in:

Guilliman / Ultramarines

Magnus / Thousand Sons

Mortarion / Death Guard

Dorn / Imperial Fists

Sanguinius / Blood Angels

Lion / Dark Angels

Corax / Raven Guard

Russ / Space Wolves

Horus / Sons of Horus

 

Who's out:

Curze / Night Lords

Alpharius / Alpha Legion

Khan / White Scars

Perturabo / Iron Warriors

Ferrus / Iron Hands

Vulkan / Salamanders

Fulgrim / Emperor's Children

Angron / World Eaters

Lorgar / Word Bearers

 

I'm beginning to understand why Horus had to go directly to Terra for the knockout blow. Whichever way you cut it, the traitorous alliance simply won't hold together for very long.

[FunkyMonkey]

I started by discounting a few unreliable wingnuts. Curze, Alpharius and the Khan can't be relied on; Perturabo has a massive chip on his shoulder for the Emperor so I'll leave him out and hope he destabilises the loyalists. Ferrus is a stubborn, bone-headed fool so he's out. Vulkan's too nice.

 

So who do I want? Guilliman's an obvious choice, the master of logistics, brings plenty of manpower and all the resources of Ultramar. I want Magnus' sorcery to give me an edge in forseeing the future. The Death Guard are resilient and brutal. The Imperial Fists are in for similar reasons. Everybody loves Sanguinius and the Blood Angels have a successful record. The Lion may be a touch paranoid and not a people person but he is a military genius. Corax brings some more subtle talents and is sane.

 

Now it gets difficult. Of the remaining five I'm wary of Lorgar, Fulgrim and Angron because they are (or soon will be) in thrall to Chaos, which leaves me with Russ and Horus.

 

Who's in:

Guilliman / Ultramarines

Magnus / Thousand Sons

Mortarion / Death Guard

Dorn / Imperial Fists

Sanguinius / Blood Angels

Lion / Dark Angels

Corax / Raven Guard

Russ / Space Wolves

Horus / Sons of Horus

 

Who's out:

Curze / Night Lords

Alpharius / Alpha Legion

Khan / White Scars

Perturabo / Iron Warriors

Ferrus / Iron Hands

Vulkan / Salamanders

Fulgrim / Emperor's Children

Angron / World Eaters

Lorgar / Word Bearers

 

I'm beginning to understand why Horus had to go directly to Terra for the knockout blow. Whichever way you cut it, the traitorous alliance simply won't hold together for very long.

 

 

Having Horus, Rowboat Girlyman, and the Lion all on the same team is possibly going to be an alliance-breaking problem.  All three of them want to be warmaster, or at least master of his own pocket empire, and in all likelihood, all three aren't going to accept instructions from another, especially when there's no clear reason why one should be obeyed over another (unless you're sticking with Horus as your arch-traitor and using his Imperial Warmaster title as basis for his leadership, though it's unclear that the Warmaster title would mean anything to Papa Smurf and Johnson after they turned traitor).  It's possible you're going to end up splitting your alliance into three sub-factions

[Cactus]

I totally agree, hence my last comment about having to win quickly. I'm gambling that my picks can at least stick with the plan until the Emperor is overthrown, aided by the other side having some of the most fractious and wilful legions.

 

I can see two ways to go with this 'dream team' exercise. You either have Horus and his cronies, plus the least staunchly loyal, which is essentially the canon history. Or you have something similar to the Caesar/Crassus/Pompey and Octavian/Anthony/Lepidus Roman triumvirates which inevitably will disintegrate.

 

It's difficult to find a scenario in which half of the Primarchs turn on the Emperor, win, and replace Him without a second civil war breaking out shortly afterwards.

 

....

 

Having discussed this with a friend over lunch we came up with:

 

Horus and Sanguinius - They're best buddies and give you the solid charismatic leadership to hold things together.

Dorn and Perturabo - With both on your side no fortress is safe. The Imperial Palace is yours for the taking.

The Lion - Put him in the field and he will win.

Magnus - Magic.

Corax - You need some special ops forces, and he isn't the Khan or Alpharius.

Mortarion - Send him to tie up Roboute's forces and raze Ultramar.

Vulkan - My mate's a Salamanders player, and he might be a conciliatory influence to smooth over any cracks in the alliance.

 

 

[Valearx]

Dream Team:

 

1. Horus - Sons of Horus

2. Sanguinius - Blood Angels

3. Magnus - Thousand Sons

4. Roboute Guilliman - Ultramarines

5. Rogal Dorn - Imperial Fists

6. Perturabo - Iron Warriors

7. Corax - Raven Guard

8. Fulgrim - Emperor's Children

9. Jagathai Khan - White Scars

 

vs

 

1. Lion El'Jonson - Dark Angels.

2. Konrad Curze - Night Lords

3. Mortarion - Death Guard

4. Vulkan - Salamanders

5. Ferrus Manus - Iron Hands

6. Angron - World Eaters

7. Leman Russ - Space Wolves

8. Alpharius - Alpha Legion

9. Lorgar - Word Bearers

 

 

Ideally I'd have both the Lion and Russ in place of Fulgrim and the Khan, but there's just no way that they'd betray the Emperor. Having Curze as a loyalist would be insanely awesome and hilarious - he'd finally get the justification he wanted/needed to go totally psycho Batman on the Traitors.

[Kais Klip]

Have some brilliant synergies here, which is all fine and HappyLight, but how do you fine gentlemen propose to broach the subject to our eleven foot overlords belonging to the False Emperor (Beloved by all)?

 

For one;

 

Acquire some radical contigent of mechanicum, alongside a small party of the most sneakiest of Alpha Legion snakes (yes I'm sure this is what Alpharius ordered), with one or two beta/alpha telepaths thrown in (psykiclly shackled). Infiltrate the Imperial laboratory and sabotage the Webway Gate. Assuming the force even makes it that far (only the AL know its a one way trip) the best outcome one can reasonably hope for is a calamity on the scale of Magnus' intrusion, rather than a full out warp breach. Destruction of AL-linked operatives ordered but unlikely to completely succeed.

 

Whatever the damage, it should be enough for the primarchs to start questioning father's lunch-break interests. Feed Erebus the persuasion to iterate how the Emperor is putting his own interests at heart over the Throneworld, who is already plotting with his usual gang while mourning; the Monarchia event was a flurry of bloodshed after AL infiltrators provoked the engagement. It is assumed the Siggilite is injured and thus unable to offer guidance to the Emperor RE: lab explosion, while the Word Bearers crush the Ultramarine honour guard and are within seconds of overpowering Guilliman before the Emperor intervened; bad blood between future allies achieved. Lorgar's talk of gods and Magnus' public support of the webway project divides the Sons even further.

 

AL operatives and assets are considered exhausted to sow the seeds of dissent, and I'm not expecting them to play any significant part once the war gets underway, in fact execution/detainment of Alpharius seems likely, prompting him to follow in Curze's path.

 

Vulkan is perhaps possible to win over with combination of a presentation on successful human colonies independent of the Imperium (Interex etc) along with a lengthy tirade on tyrants from Angron and the Khan while linking the Emperor's project with eldar habits (specifically those of their darker kin), but the real trouble I think would be winning over Dorn & Sanguinius.

 

Essentially, the key I think is shown in the arguments between the Khan and Emperor; once many of the lies the Imperium is built upon are sufficiently exposed the whole thing should rock violently enough to offer an opportunity for an uprising.

 

Eugh, looking at the size of that let's just keep it to laying the seeds of dissent. Sow away!

[GhostMalone]

World eaters- shock troops for those breaches in the walls

Angron- one of the strongest upon ascension

 

Blood angels- supporting world eaters

Sang- duel khorne primarchs..... Nasty

 

Death Guard- resilient and enduring trench warfare and cleanse and purge types

Mortarion- is spiteful and will turn nasty come ascension

 

Iron hands- compliment the foot sluggers idea

Ferrus mannus- another nurgle deamon primarch

 

Iron Warriors- siege and breaching

Perturabo- engineer and master siege specialist

 

White scars- a 2nd spear choice go well with the SoH

Jaghati- element of wild suprise

 

Sons of Horus- the spear tip supported by the WS

Horus- still the main man

 

Dark angels- military night and well trained

Lion- give him mars and luna and Saturn to deal with so his PMS doesn't interfere

 

Ultramarines- do as they are told

Guillaman- will be a brilliant 2ic

 

 

 

So I'm after lightning fast shock and suprise with heaps of footsloggers

[deathspectersgt7]

Raven Guard-stealth

Nightlords-Terror

Alpha Legion-Stealth infiltration

Sons of Hours -Strength

Dark Angels- Strength

Blood Angels- Strength

White Scars - Speed

Thousand Sons- Knowledge

Salamanders -

[facmanpob]

For me, the key to winning this campaign is speed of action, logistics, a well-run Battle of Terra, and denying the loyalists anyone to effectively fortify the Emperors Palace.

 

So I'm going to need Guilliman for the logistical backup and numbers, the Lion for his Legion and to use his genius to run the battle, and Dorn and Perturabo so that whatever cobbled together defences are a joke compared to their combined siege craft. Lorgar would be handy as the combined sizes of the Word Bearers and Ultramarines fleets would be hilarious!

 

The rest are optional, but I wouldn't take Vulkan, Angron, Fulgrim or Ferrus.

[Antarius]

Guilliman plus any eight others. Done deal.

Indeed. After all, Guilliman was the Warmaster that should have been.

 

(although I'm secretly glad he wasn't)

[daveNYC]

Have some brilliant synergies here, which is all fine and HappyLight, but how do you fine gentlemen propose to broach the subject to our eleven foot overlords belonging to the False Emperor (Beloved by all)?

 

For one;

 

Acquire some radical contigent of mechanicum, alongside a small party of the most sneakiest of Alpha Legion snakes (yes I'm sure this is what Alpharius ordered), with one or two beta/alpha telepaths thrown in (psykiclly shackled). Infiltrate the Imperial laboratory and sabotage the Webway Gate. Assuming the force even makes it that far (only the AL know its a one way trip) the best outcome one can reasonably hope for is a calamity on the scale of Magnus' intrusion, rather than a full out warp breach. Destruction of AL-linked operatives ordered but unlikely to completely succeed.

 

 

"Imperial Laboratory" isn't quite doing the target justice.  We're talking about the basement of the Imperial Palace.  Probably the most secure room in an already remarkably secure structure.  You'd have to dodge guards, custodes, any random members of the assassin guilds that might be out and about, any astropaths or other psykers who are around, and at the end of it, manage to get into that room (which probably has it's own contingent of custodes guarding it at all times) in order to set of a nuke or something.  And that room is probably already occupied by the Emperor who is not an easy one to take by surprise.

 

If getting a bomb or a sabotage team into the Emperor's lab via real space was actually doable, it would have been done in the canon Heresy, and there's a reason why both known breaches of the labs security came about through crazy warp related stuff.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Have some brilliant synergies here, which is all fine and HappyLight, but how do you fine gentlemen propose to broach the subject to our eleven foot overlords belonging to the False Emperor (Beloved by all)?

 

For one;

 

Acquire some radical contigent of mechanicum, alongside a small party of the most sneakiest of Alpha Legion snakes (yes I'm sure this is what Alpharius ordered), with one or two beta/alpha telepaths thrown in (psykiclly shackled). Infiltrate the Imperial laboratory and sabotage the Webway Gate. Assuming the force even makes it that far (only the AL know its a one way trip) the best outcome one can reasonably hope for is a calamity on the scale of Magnus' intrusion, rather than a full out warp breach. Destruction of AL-linked operatives ordered but unlikely to completely succeed.

 

"Imperial Laboratory" isn't quite doing the target justice. We're talking about the basement of the Imperial Palace. Probably the most secure room in an already remarkably secure structure. You'd have to dodge guards, custodes, any random members of the assassin guilds that might be out and about, any astropaths or other psykers who are around, and at the end of it, manage to get into that room (which probably has it's own contingent of custodes guarding it at all times) in order to set of a nuke or something. And that room is probably already occupied by the Emperor who is not an easy one to take by surprise.

 

If getting a bomb or a sabotage team into the Emperor's lab via real space was actually doable, it would have been done in the canon Heresy, and there's a reason why both known breaches of the labs security came about through crazy warp related stuff.

And a siege carried out by the majority of the Traitor forces.

[daveNYC]

They broke the walls but never made it into the basement.

[Kol Saresk]

 

They broke the walls but never made it into the basement.

I'd call that a threat to security. Especially since the only reason they didn't breach was because they left.

[Cactus]

True, but a successful conquest is not the same as an infiltration/sabotage mission, which I think was the initial suggestion.

[daveNYC]

Yep, the original idea was to have some Alphas try and muck things up to try and replicate some of the damage that Magnus' caused when he broke the web gate wide open.  Without that, any alt-Heresy faces the double threat of either the Emperor himself showing up at any given battle and wiping the floor with the traitors or that he manages to complete his grand project, thus doing something or other that means game over for the traitors.

[Cactus]

Having thought about this some more my first pick for an alternative heresy line-up is.... Sigmar.

*ducks*

[Dominus_Nox]

On the assault - 

 

Angron and his eaters - "For who can truly hope to best Angron in single combat?

Russ and the wolves - Complimenting Angrons maniacal charge with something only slightly less maniacal.

Sanguinius' Blood Angels - I dont know much about this legion, other than that they are the other close combat favoring archetype. I'm sure they'd fit in just fine.

 

In a straight up battlefield brawl, I cant see any other 3 legions beating these.

 

A few hundred meters back -

 

Perturabo's Iron boys - Blowing you to bits.

Mortarion and the sloggers - Standing in front of the iron warriors, laying down more fire and soaking up bullets with large numbers and a straight up refusal to die.

Magnus son's - Lightning from the sky, fireballs, psychic disruption and a load more  firepower. You gotta have these guys on side.

 

Doesn't get much more staunch than that.

 

Nowhere and everywhere -

 

The Night Haunter - Sowing discord, confusion, disruption. Every tacticians nightmare.

The twins Alpha - A more subtle, less scary, yet equally as debilitating version of the above.

 

If they're not with you, they're against you. Reason enough.

 

Command center - 

 

Horus, of course - Huge numbers, a mastermind leader. Arguably the most powerful legion. 

[Valearx]

How would I turn mine?

 

Sanguinius

 

-Go with the Signus Prime plan, except not suck at executing it.

 

Roboute Guilliman

 

-Chain him in a room with an unsolvable rubix cube, while cultists repeatedly mess up his desk in front of him, before putting everything back in the wrong order. Try and get him possessed by a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch or Slaanesh while his OCD goes into hyperdrive.

 

Rogal Dorn

 

-Persuade him that he is nothing but second-rate to Perturabo in the eyes of the Emperor. A second-rate Primarch of a second-rate Legion, doomed to stand forever in the shadow of his better. Send him on a couple of years' worth of deeply mundane, pointless deployments 'on the orders of the Emperor' to prove the point. Prick his pride and his ambition, let Slaanesh in.

 

Corax

 

-Show him the Emperor's "plan" for humanity, and the ultimate tyranny that awaits. A galaxy where trillions break their backs for the whims of an uncaring despot who strives for Godhood. Might end up like the Night Haunter. Nurgle's a possible alternative once he loses all hope.

 

Jagathai Khan

 

-Try and turn him to Khorne or Slaanesh. He's bloodthirsty and free-spirited enough for both. Stab him with an Athame if necessary and go crazy with the dreams.

[Kais Klip]

 

Have some brilliant synergies here, which is all fine and HappyLight, but how do you fine gentlemen propose to broach the subject to our eleven foot overlords belonging to the False Emperor (Beloved by all)?

For one;

Acquire some radical contigent of mechanicum, alongside a small party of the most sneakiest of Alpha Legion snakes (yes I'm sure this is what Alpharius ordered), with one or two beta/alpha telepaths thrown in (psykiclly shackled). Infiltrate the Imperial laboratory and sabotage the Webway Gate. Assuming the force even makes it that far (only the AL know its a one way trip) the best outcome one can reasonably hope for is a calamity on the scale of Magnus' intrusion, rather than a full out warp breach. Destruction of AL-linked operatives ordered but unlikely to completely succeed.

 

 

"Imperial Laboratory" isn't quite doing the target justice.  We're talking about the basement of the Imperial Palace.  Probably the most secure room in an already remarkably secure structure.  You'd have to dodge guards, custodes, any random members of the assassin guilds that might be out and about, any astropaths or other psykers who are around, and at the end of it, manage to get into that room (which probably has it's own contingent of custodes guarding it at all times) in order to set of a nuke or something.  And that room is probably already occupied by the Emperor who is not an easy one to take by surprise.

 

If getting a bomb or a sabotage team into the Emperor's lab via real space was actually doable, it would have been done in the canon Heresy, and there's a reason why both known breaches of the labs security came about through crazy warp related stuff.

I couldn't help but hear the rising tempo of a smooth nu-jazz theme with a thrumming bass in the background. I'll go get Clooney and the Ocean's Thirty-one thousand.

 

*...pampampampam paaaaaaam pampampampam...*