Cleansing Flame

[Corbulo]

Hey guys,

 

I know that searchy is your friend, but searchy came up with nothing to help me on this topic. So unless I missed it apologies in advance.

 

I'm a BA player and I've picked up some GK Purifiers to help kill Chaos and to help me deal with lists with large amounts of infantry. My question is with Cleansing flame and the timing of it. I just want to make sure I am doing it right. I checked the FAQ too.

 

So here is a scenario. I have Crowe and 10 purifiers (Crowe isn't attached to them, I know that much but he is next to them). I have a 30 man Ork squad in front of me and I want to charge them. I go in with the squad and then Crowe. Let's say I make it in with both. Now, after I have moved all the Purifiers and Crowe do I use Cleansing Flame now? I know it hits before attacks are made. I'm thinking yes, it's pretty straight forward.

 

But now lets say that Crowe makes it but I roll snake eyes for the Purifiers. I elect the Purifiers to take the over watch and Crowe goes in. Can I use Cleansing Flame now and hit the squad or can my opponent challenge me 1st and thus I can only use Cleansing Flame on his nob and not the whole squad?

 

I just want to make sure I'm using this correctly. Thanks in advance!

 

Corb

 

 

[dropped my axe]

My understanding is that the challenge and cleansing flame happen at the same time which means u as the controlling player decides the order so you would use the flame first.... Could be wrong

[Kenderleech]

They are both start of combat, so active player chooses.   Dont forget that Crowes cleansing flame is rending as well.

[Grand Master Caloth]

I do not believe his are rending. Also, remember that you don't get to elect which unit takes overwatch. You declare charges and order, and your opponent chooses if he will shoot or wait and hope you fall short on the first charge

[dropped my axe]

Hasn't been FAQ yet so any wounds caused by Crowe is rending on a 4+ which is what you need to roll to wound anyway!! True about the over watch but the original post was asking more if he had to waste his flame on the challenge or the whole group

[Madmaardigan]

It's rending for crow because his close combat attacks rend on a 4+ and cleansing flame according to the FAQ is a close combat attack this is important as it can negate armor saves with all the possible dice being rolled this needs to be FAQ'd for sure but it's there to use in the meantime

[MayorDaley]

They are both start of combat, so active player chooses. Dont forget that Crowes cleansing flame is rending as well.

lol This again.

Cheers

[Corbulo]

I do not believe his are rending. Also, remember that you don't get to elect which unit takes overwatch. You declare charges and order, and your opponent chooses if he will shoot or wait and hope you fall short on the first charge

 

Really? Are you sure about this. When 6th 1st came out we were playing that if two units were assaulting then the assaulter choose which unit went in 1st and took the over watch (or the opponent could gamble and not over watch and hope the 1st unit couldn't make it in hope to over watch the second until)  then we (my gaming group) re-read the rules and were playing as you said above. Then another guy in our group (a real rules lawyer) said no we were playing it right the 1st time.

 

Crowe's Cleansing Fire rends too? LOL. This sounds just wrong. I re-read cleansing flame in the codex and from that I'd say it doesn't. But then you read the FAQ and I'd say it does. Thanks GW! :) Ok Kenderleech said: They are both start of combat, so active player chooses. This makes the most sense to me. So I'll play it this way from now on.

[Kenderleech]

even more fun, its the dark eldars fault that crowes cleansing flame rends, they got the first FAQ stating that it counts as a close combat attack, so wyches get thier invuln save from it.  they can Dodge a wave of fire!

[Gentlemanloser]

The arguement stems from Crowe's rule giving him Rending on "to-wound" rolls of 4+.  The discussion is orientated around Cleansing Flame not having a "To-wound" roll, as there's no S/T comparison.  The counter to that are Poisoned Weapons.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I believe they FAQ'd Crowe a while ago. It was an amusing move while it lasted. 

[Valerian]

No updated FAQ for Crowe that I know of, however, Rending works on a 'To Wound' roll of a set number (usually a 6, but 4 or better for Crowe).  However, there is no 'To Wound' roll for Cleansing Flame, although the method for determining whether it causes an effect on enemy models is similar.  As I Grok it, Crowe's Cleansing Flame has never had a Rending ability, despite the FAQ calling the psychic power a form of a Close Combat Attack.

 

V

[Reclusiarch Darius]

'Cleansing Flame' is a psychic power used at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before Initiative steps begin (ie starting at 10). Roll for every model in the enemy unit you are engaged in melee with, on a 4+ they take a wound. 

 

I'm sure in an earlier FAQ they made it abundantly clear Crowe's Rend only procs on his actual close-combat attacks. 'Cleansing Flame' is not a close-combat attack, it's merely resolved only whilst in melee. You can argue his Rends do proc. Either way, he's still a terrible character due to the lack of IC and being only two wounds. 

[Gentlemanloser]

RD, Cleansing Flame *is* a Close combat attack.  That was clarified in a FAQ.

 

Val;

 

 

No updated FAQ for Crowe that I know of, however, Rending works on a 'To
Wound' roll of a set number (usually a 6, but 4 or better for Crowe).
 However, there is no 'To Wound' roll for Cleansing Flame, although the
method for determining whether it causes an effect on enemy models is
similar.

P

 

Poisoned Weapons. ;)

[Valerian]

What about Poisoned Weapons?  How is that Special Rule relevant to the argument?  Poisoned Weapons still have a To Wound roll (see page 40 of the BRB), it just happens to be at a fixed value, vice using the S vs T chart.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

That's exactly what Cleansing Flames roll is.  A Fixed to-wound roll.

 

If it isn't a To-wound roll, then how can you allocate any Wounds?

[Valerian]

But it's not a To Wound roll (although the end state is the same); rather it is a fixed roll to see if models in the enemy unit are affected by the Psychic Power.  The result is the same - if they are affected, the take a Wound, but there is a distinction in the wording.  Enough of a distinction to make it clear the Rending doesn't apply.  Confirms the "common sense" decision that such a psychic power shouldn't be Rending anyway.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

How do you take a Wound, without a To-wound roll?

[Inquisitor Fox]

You take wounds from Perils without a to wound roll :)

[Gentlemanloser]

Touche!

[Madmaardigan]

As far as I can tell you are stil making a "to wound roll" it's all worded as "models suffers a wound on a roll of a 4+" under cleansing flame so you have roll and wound in the same sentence I would sight that rending still works, maybe they haven't errata'd it as Crowe is the only model capable of this particular thing and it's not that game breaking on a two wound model that isn't an independent character that you have to devote a whole vehicle to if you want to protect him marginally.

 

Further I don't feel this is a game changing strategy, I just think it's another option that will come up very seldom.

[dropped my axe]

i still struggle to fit him into lists because of the no IC, even with the purifier troop choice. i usually just put a 5man squad in the raven to fly in and do some damage..... not always a sound strategy

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm pretty sure it got FAQ'd. I CBF digging it up, but we had this exact argument when the codex came out in 5th, and I swear it got resolved then as GW saying 'lads don't be silly he doesn't get Rending on everything'. 

 

(shrug) As you say GL, not a huge deal. If you're playing Crowe you're doing it wrong in 6th anyway. Purifier lists have gone the way of the dodo.