Who is "unreliable"?

[Kol Saresk]

Basically, which Primarchs/Legions do you view as "unreliable"? Why? Is there a history of them straining at the leash or deliberately slipping it? When and where are these instances?

 

On the inverse, which do you view as reliable?

 

This isn't meant to start a heated debate, just satisfying curiosity.

[Dumah]

I haven't read Scars yet, but I've heard second-hand that the Khan is described as wild and unpredictable. Alpharius Omegon also comes to mind in that the Alpha Legion may be counted upon to complete their objectives, but not in the preferred manner and in doing so using lots of subterfuge and manipulation of their allies without their knowledge. The opening scene in Legion comes to mind, where they use an Imperial Army unit as bait to lure the Nurthene Elite into the open. They also can't always be relied upon for having the same objective as their allies; inscrutable is a good word to describe them, I think. And then there's Angron... I don't think I really need to explain why. Although maybe that's an unfair assessment; after all, if there's one thing you can rely on, it's that Angron and his boys will go bonkers and kill everything that moves. So really he could go either way. Oh, and let's not forget the Night Haunter. Vulkan Lives gave us a good example of his unwillingness to cooperate with his brothers and to do as he sees fit regardless of dissenting opinion.

 

On the flip side, Rogal Dorn is probably the archetypal Primarch for steadfastness and reliability. Entrusted with the task of shoring up defenses at the Imperial Palace and acting as the Emperor's Praetorian is a good indication that the VII Legion can be depended on. I think that to an extent, every other Primarch not yet mentioned also is reliable in their way; Guilliman's Dauntless Few (including himself) are probably the most dependable of the bunch given Daddy Ultra's proclivities for perfectionism.

[Legatus]

Oh goodie! : )

 

Are we talking 'pre-corruption'?

 

I - Lion El'Jonson / Dark Angels - Unreliable Primarch, reliable Legion. I think if a force of Dark Angels were to fight next to another Legion force, they would do fine. It is mainly a personality trait of Jonson that he does not cooperate well with other commanders. Though in the later parts of the Crusade, that may have started to rub off on his Legion as well.

 

III - Emperor's Children / Fulgrim - Reliable. Fulgrim might be vain, but in terms of performance he and his Legion can definitely deliver.

 

IV - Perturabo / Iron Warriors - Reliable. The Primarch and Legion may be cynical and not exactly sociable, but they are efficient at what they do.

 

V - Jaghatai Khan / White Scars - Unreliable. Too hot headed at times, and can easily exaggerate their measures and actions.

 

VI - Leman Russ / Space Wolves - Reliable. I don't see the Space Wolves so much as "uncontrollable" as more as "overly enthusiastic". I see no evidence that they were anything other than a very effective fighting force. Russ and the Wolves may come off as too competitive at times, but that really only went bad when paired off with Jonson. Russ got a long better with the less grim Primarchs, and even managed to befriend Jonson in the end.

 

VII - Rogal Dorn / Imperial Fists - Reliable. They were held in strategic reserve for a reason. The occasional reluctance to budge or deviate from a previous plan may cause some issues, but that can be mitigated by using them right.

 

VIII - Konrad Curze / Night Lords - Unreliable. Curze had mental issues, and the Legion was increasingly infused with criminals and psychopaths.

 

IX - Sanguinius / Blood Angels - Reliable.  I have read nothing that suggests the Blood Angels were doing anything other than a good job. Sanguinius is also said to have been well liked by virtually every other Primarch.

 

X - Ferrus Manus / Iron Hands - Reliable. A similarly strong determination as the Imperial Fists, with no real negative trait.

 

XII - Angron / World Eaters - Unreliable. Ten times worse than the White Scars, and not giving a damn about it.

 

XIII - Roboute Guilliman / Ultramarines - Reliable. I don't think even the most strident detractor would contest that.

 

XIV - Mortarion / Death Guard - Maybe unreliable Primarch, probably reliable Legion. Mortarion's loyalties were never truly convincing, though I don't think that would necessarily have diminished the performance of independently operating Death Guard forces. The newer Forge World books mention high casualty rates among this Legion, though.

 

XV - Magnus the Red / Thousand Sons - Unreliable. I don't necessarily doubt their capacity to get results, but the means by which they achieve them are worrisome and would cause concern among their allies.

 

XVI - Horus / Luna Wolves - Unreliable. Not because of a lack of effectiveness, but more because they do not bother to clean up their mess afterwards and leave their allies behind, just so they themselves can be the first in the next fight.

 

XVII Lorgar / Word Bearers - Unreliable. The Word Bearers were very slow in their progress, and thus not really all that effective during the Great Crusade. But that was mainly due to Lorgar's own lead. Without that agenda to slow them down, the Legion itself would probably have performed allright. But once Lrogar had taken over and instilled that mission in his commanders, even independently operating forces of the Word Bearers were probably wasting a lot of time in their campaigns. Without the religious agenda, they would probably have been reliable.

 

XVIII - Vulkan / Salamanders - Reliable. I have not read GW material that suggests any problems, other than perhaps a certain lack of mobility. The newer Forge World material suggests that the Salamanders had nihilistic and borderline suicidal tendencies, even far worse than the Imperial Fists. Though in previous material (Index Astartes), their determination was presented in a more positive light than that of the Imperial Fists. Where the Imperial Fists would fight on even if that would ultimately cost them, the Salamanders on the other hand would often fight on to secure a victory that seemed impossible. In their Index Astartes rules, the Salamanders were permitted to decide that the game would go on for an additional turn if they wanted, to maybe get one more chance at a decisive turn, while with the Imperial Fists it was the opponent who was allowed to decide that the game would go on for another turn. Going with the Forge World material, they would be more unreliable. Going with the older GW material, I would consider them reliable.

 

XIX - Corax / Raven Guard - Reliable. Rapid assault or re-deployment tactics, without any real downside (see next entry). The genetic instability problems would arise later.

 

XX - Alpharius / Alpha Legion - Unreliable. Even in the older lore, I would have considered them unreliable, since they were prone to get into conflicts with other Legions. With the new Horus Heresy lore they are especially unreliable, since they barely communicate their plans to their allies. THeir unorthodox style of warfare is also not all that compatible with the other Legions.

[Captain Semper]

Could you be more specific on the Lion? To me he's the most reliable of all... What specific examples can you provide that the Lion is indeed "unreliable"?

[Legatus]

One incident that comes to mind was the pivotal one where the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were fighting together against a Tyrant. The accounts vary, depending on who tells it. According to the Dark Angels, Jonson did not want to waste his days of preparation and reconnaisance just to grant Russ some personal satisfaction. According to the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels' sudden advance left the Space Wolves' flank open to an enemy attack. But in either account it was the Dark Angels who moved ahead without consulting with their allies.

 

Edit: Of course, this would then also lead to the fight between Jonson and Russ. And for all the partial blame you can lay on Russ for their feud, one of the more socially open Primarch could have brushed off both incidents and could have come to an agreement with Russ. It was specifically with Jonson's personality where this led to exacerbated conflict.

 

Plus, apparently Jonson did not trust parts of his own Legion, and increasingly marginalised the original terran elements, and even had them be monitored by his more trusted Caliban Chapters. I cannot remember whether Jonson was among those Primarchs complaining about Horus' promotion to Warmaster, but we know he mistrusted Guilliman when he sought to enact plans to save the Imperium.

 

I am not trying to say that Jonson was not capable to get a job done. But he was not among the best when it came to cooperating and working with others.

[Conn Eremon]

The Black Library series has also shown the Lion to hold his brothers against standards he himself deliberately doesn't meet. In Unremembered Empire, he straight up accuses Guilliman about secrecy and agendas while hiding his own, which ended up being worse. While he is capable, and one of the most effective commanders the Imperium has, he does fall squarely in the "doesn't play well with others" category. Which you would need to in order to be called reliable, right?

[Olis]

I think the two most obviously unreliable Legions (as in, they will more than likely disobey/ignore directives or orders and do whatever the hell they want) are the Night Lords and the World Eaters.

 

Vulkan Lives spoiler

 

In fact, in Vulkan Lives (as a recent example), a battle on Kharataan that has been carefully planned by Vulkan is immediately rendered moot when he discovers that Konrad Curze and his Night Lords have simply butchered the population of the target city.

 

 

Betrayer spoiler

 

As for the World Eaters, in Betrayer (to use another recent example), the assault on Armatura mainly consisted of massed charges towards entrenched positions and traps (although the initial trap featured in the book was unknown by the WE at the time, iirc). They didn't wait for the Word Bearers to support them and they more often than not were lost the Nails en masse.

 

[Kol Saresk]

Either "plays well with others" or "is dependable on getting the job done without too much collateral".

 

For example, Angron was kind of eh with Lorgar. They got along(surprisingly), but at the same time, Angron kept going "squirrel!" Whenever he saw Loyalists and would hunt them down even if they weren't on the agenda. An alright team player, but iffy on the dependability department so he could be "kind of" reliable.

 

Then you get Alpharius/Omegon. Here eight entire Legions(or at least the entireties present) are hunting down the Raven Guard. And then the Alpha Legion go and kill some of their fellow Traitors just so the XIX can escape without anyone's prior consent or knowledge. Not reliable.

 

Then you get say, Curze. Given a simple job. "Hold the Lion in the Galactic East". Does it for two years. Only reason he got stopped was because he got trapped on the Invincible Reason. Even then, the Lion is still in the Galactic East. If anything, the Lion is even more trapped there since he's in the Ruinstorm.

 

Yeah, he's bonkers and madder than the Hatter. But so far, the only time we really have an example of him disobeying orders(or at least an example I am aware of) is when he refused to send his Legion to Terra for censure following the destruction of Nostramo. But he's about the farthest thing from a team player there is. And yet, his record says "If you give him a job, he will see it through." At least, at the moment. Although, to be honest I'm kind of iffy on "reliability".

 

I think the two most obviously unreliable Legions (as in, they will more than likely disobey/ignore directives or orders and do whatever the hell they want) are the Night Lords and the World Eaters.

 

Vulkan Lives spoiler

 

In fact, in Vulkan Lives (as a recent example), a battle on Kharataan that has been carefully planned by Vulkan is immediately rendered moot when he discovers that Konrad Curze and his Night Lords have simply butchered the population of the target city.

 

 

The funny thing was, even Vulkan admitted that the slaughter of just one city, completely under cut the projected casualties just for the Imperials.

Betrayer spoiler

 

As for the World Eaters, in Betrayer (to use another recent example), the assault on Armatura mainly consisted of massed charges towards entrenched positions and traps (although the initial trap featured in the book was unknown by the WE at the time, iirc). They didn't wait for the Word Bearers to support them and they more often than not were lost the Nails en masse.

 

Yeah but didn't help that the Word Bearers also refused to give support until their own Primarch was in danger. It's one thing to say "they ran ahead", but another to say "they moved on and we let them".

[Olis]

The funny thing was, even Vulkan admitted that the slaughter of just one city, completely under cut the projected casualties just for the Imperials.

 

That as it may be, my point is that Konrad ignored the 'plan' (or even conferring with his brother) and did what he deemed best for the situation. The only way he's actually reliable is when he's doing what he wants. You can't count on him or the Night Lords otherwise.

 

Yeah but didn't help that the Word Bearers also refused to give support until their own Primarch was in danger. It's one thing to say "they ran ahead", but another to say "they moved on and we let them".

 

From the WE perspective, they didn't know the WB let them run on ahead until after the fact. And yet they charged on forward anyway.

[Legatus]

 

For example, Angron was kind of eh with Lorgar. They got along(surprisingly), but at the same time, Angron kept going "squirrel!" Whenever he saw Loyalists and would hunt them down even if they weren't on the agenda. An alright team player, but iffy on the dependability department so he could be "kind of" reliable.

 

On the flip side, the Word Bearers would just wander off preparing for whatever weird rituals, and would leave the World Eaters without support even where the World Eaters were not overextending and simply engage in general fighting. It took repeated calls by the World Eaters to get the Word Bearers to actually join in the fightin, IIRC.

 

Edit: I think we are probably on the same page with this. I had not seen your edit yet, and didn't want to leave it presented to one sided (WE leaving WB behind).

 

 

 

Then you get say, Curze. Given a simple job. "Hold the Lion in the Galactic East". Does it for two years. Only reason he got stopped was because he got trapped on the Invincible Reason. Even then, the Lion is still in the Galactic East. If anything, the Lion is even more trapped there since he's in the Ruinstorm.

 

Yeah, he's bonkers and madder than the Hatter. But so far, the only time we really have an example of him disobeying orders(or at least an example I am aware of) is when he refused to send his Legion to Terra for censure following the destruction of Nostramo. But he's about the farthest thing from a team player there is. And yet, his record says "If you give him a job, he will see it through." At least, at the moment. Although, to be honest I'm kind of iffy on "reliability".

 

I think with Curze the will to not disappoint his brothers and to cooperate might be there. But in the end he might just suffer another breakdown. Plus even looking at just the Legion alone, by the end of the Crusade it was filled with sadists and murderers, so morale and discipline were not exactly high.

[hopkins]

ferrus was rather hot-headed in fulgrim

[Legatus]

I think that was probably due to extraordinary emotional circumstances though? And not just because... tuesday.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

For example, Angron was kind of eh with Lorgar. They got along(surprisingly), but at the same time, Angron kept going "squirrel!" Whenever he saw Loyalists and would hunt them down even if they weren't on the agenda. An alright team player, but iffy on the dependability department so he could be "kind of" reliable.

 

On the flip side, the Word Bearers would just wander off preparing for whatever weird rituals, and would leave the World Eaters without support even where the World Eaters were not overextending and simply engage in general fighting. It took repeated calls by the World Eaters to get the Word Bearers to actually join in the fightin, IIRC.

 

Edit: I think we are probably on the same page with this. I had not seen your edit yet, and didn't want to leave it presented to one sided (WE leaving WB behind).

 

 

Then you get say, Curze. Given a simple job. "Hold the Lion in the Galactic East". Does it for two years. Only reason he got stopped was because he got trapped on the Invincible Reason. Even then, the Lion is still in the Galactic East. If anything, the Lion is even more trapped there since he's in the Ruinstorm.

 

Yeah, he's bonkers and madder than the Hatter. But so far, the only time we really have an example of him disobeying orders(or at least an example I am aware of) is when he refused to send his Legion to Terra for censure following the destruction of Nostramo. But he's about the farthest thing from a team player there is. And yet, his record says "If you give him a job, he will see it through." At least, at the moment. Although, to be honest I'm kind of iffy on "reliability".

 

I think with Curze the will to not disappoint his brothers and to cooperate might be there. But in the end he might just suffer another breakdown. Plus even looking at just the Legion alone, by the end of the Crusade it was filled with sadists and murderers, so morale and discipline were not exactly high.

 

 

With the World Eaters/Word Bearers, I was mostly referencing Butcher's Nails. In there, we see Lorgar trying to push both fleets towards Armatura. Meanwhile, everytime Angron sees a Loyalist planet, he immediately diverted course. And then when the Dark Eldar showed up, it's like telling a five year old kid to stop a full-grown Tibetan mastiff from charging on using nothing but a leash.

 

Olis, that is true that he did it with no consultation whatsoever. On the flipside, Vulkan didn't exactly make Curze aware either. Although, IIRC Vulkan did at least make the attempt to communicate, but from what we can see(IIRC), he wasn't exactly thinking of their involvement when he drew up the battle plans. Although that might have resulted from the aforementioned lack of coordination. Still, I think its probably a better example than Angron's squirrel moments.

 

EDIT: Like I said, Curze is not a team player. But currently, he does have the description "Give him a job and it will get done." That's why I'm iffy on the reliability factor. He will do it, but how does the "teamwork" fit into reliability?

[Olis]

I think that was probably due to extraordinary emotional circumstances though? And not just because... tuesday.

 

I would concur. Fulgrim did try to turn him into a traitor, after all.

[Dosjetka]

I think that was probably due to extraordinary emotional circumstances though? And not just because... tuesday.

 

Agreed.

[dragon950]

I actually view the White Scars, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion as reliable.  The WS just had their own way of doing war that worked out well in the end of a war, but for outsiders it may have not seen that way.  Like how the Raven Guard took a long route to winning a war, but they won it in the end.

 

The NL were very good about conquering planets and making the population loyal.  It's just that instead of beating them in normal war and trying to convert them, they terrorized them into surrender.

 

The AL also was great at conquering planets, just not as fast as other legions or with as many losses to themselves.  They did what they needed to do without informing their allies what they actually doing.

[Kol Saresk]

New question, still related. How does teamwork fit into "reliability"? Is it "the" determining factor? Is it a major determining factor? Or is it just a determining factor? Can someone be "reliable" and "counted on to get the job done" even though he may do the job without waiting for his allies' consent? Are the Primarchs who are "team players" reliable to get the job done if a "more pressing objective" does not arise?

 

For example, from what we know Shrike, the Thousand Sons went along with the campaign objectives set out for them. But when they realized the Library was about to be destroyed, they sent secondary forces to capture and hold it, even against their allies. A move which resulted in conflict between them and the Space Wolves.

 

Meanwhile, as described above, we have Curze who didn't involve himself or his Legion with the campaign planning. But instead used the cover of night to not only capture a primary objective, but finish a planetwide campaign in a single stroke. He did not compromise the the campaign for the sake of a personal objective but instead completed it, although without the knowledge or consent of his allies.

 

So what are the factors in "being reliable"? Is it subjective? Are there different kinds?

[Olis]

So what are the factors in "being reliable"? Is it subjective? Are there different kinds?

 

In my opinion, getting the job done is just one aspect of reliability, in terms of the Primarchs and their Legions. Does anyone remember the epithet that (at least part of) the Inquisition cleaves to?

 

"The ends justify the means." 

 

But that is a mindset for those who only focus on results. How you get those results can be equally important. This is why I consider Curze and Angron unreliable. They do not care for collateral damage, nor civilian casualties. For compliance purposes it's arguably better, if you have the option, to call in Guilliman or Vulkan. For astartes vs astartes warfare? Sheer butchery has it's qualities but it can be out-thought, if not necessarily out-fought.    

[Legatus]

 

New question, still related. How does teamwork fit into "reliability"?

 

I would say that is the most important aspect. Perhaps even the only one that matters. I don't think that the "ability to get the job done" is an issue. I don't think you could expect any of the Legions to not be able to pacify a world or defeat an enemy. They would just do it with varying degrees of efficiency. Some may take longer. Some may cause greater collateral damage to the population and infrastructure. But eventually each Legion would ultimately succeed in the given task.

 

It is in team situations where that will play a much greater role. Yeah, if you leave the Alpha Legion a few months time, they may be able to take that world with their own methods. But if the Emperor's Children and Alpha Legion are in orbit and tasked to take the world, the Alpha Legion may not be the greatest help. (Plus, those Emperor's Children are pretty cocky, so you just know the Alpha Legion will take a stab at them.) How much will a Legion or Primarch be willing or able to cooperate with others? That is the real question.

 

One of the issues is willingness to communicate and work together. With Alpharius or Jonson you may not get that. Another issue is preparedness to dial back and adjust your own approaches to a team effort. That is where the White Scars or World Eaters will fall short, for example. A third issue is loyalty, whether one Legion will give a damn when an ally is being attacked, as long as they themselves are not harmed. A Death Guard or Night Lords detachment might decide to not make an effort and swing around to support an allies threatened flank, and instead continue pursuing their own objectives in this engagement.

 

With those that I deemed as "reliable", like the Space Wolves, I think that they are willing to communicate and to work in a team, to not go completely off plan and do their own thing but instead work towards the agreed objectives, and to come to an allies aid when there may be the need to.

 

WIth the Iron Warriors, we have a scene at Istvaan III where they are entirely dismissive of their allies, and are ruthlessly shelling the area. However, I think that was not their attitude throughout the Great Crusade, and was more a result of them finally going over the edge and making the decision to turn against the Emperor. On the other hand, the Night Lords started to go rogue long before the Horus Heresy.

 

 

Edit: Perhaps I should clarify that I view the issue of reliability more with regard to the 'original' Legions, 'pre-corruption'. If you asked which Legion would be reliable "now", three years into the Heresy, things might be different.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

New question, still related. How does teamwork fit into "reliability"?

With those that I deemed as "reliable", like the Space Wolves, I think that they are willing to communicate and to work in a team, to not go completely off plan and do their own thing but instead work towards the agreed objectives, and to come to an allies aid when there may be the need to.

 

 

First, let me say good points on everything. Especially the Iron Warriors at Istvaan V.

 

But here, in A Thousand Sons, we have the Space Wolves firing the first shots at the Thousand Sons IIRC. The library wasn't exactly a major target, and the Thousand Sons were capturing for their own personal gain, but it was the Space Wolves who pushed it to blows. Would this radically change your judgement, or would you view it as "an exception"?

[Wade Garrett]

I agree with Legatus on the team work issue.

 

Imagine you're the coach of the Primarch football team, and you want your guys to run a zone defense.

 

Except Angron is plowing straight up the middle trying to sack the quarterback, Curze is off on the sidelines stabbing the opposing team's mascot, and Alpharius is somehow suddenly the referee.

 

So much for zone defense.

[Legatus]

 

But here, in A Thousand Sons, we have the Space Wolves firing the first shots at the Thousand Sons IIRC. The library wasn't exactly a major target, and the Thousand Sons were capturing for their own personal gain, but it was the Space Wolves who pushed it to blows. Would this radically change your judgement, or would you view it as "an exception"?

 

Hm, I dunno, I haven't read it. I am going heavily on the Index Astartes and 2nd to 5th Edition GW portrayals of the Primarchs and Legions, while trying to consider forgeworld or Horus Heresy material when I am aware of it. I got the impression that the Space Wolves were indeed capable to work with others. But they were also wary of sorcery. What was the deal in that story? Was the Library host to some heretical knowledge? Were they suspecting the Thousand Sons of some shady business? Them suddenly attacking an ally seems very much out of character for them. Unless that "ally" was seriously in their space or was threatening them.

[Conn Eremon]

If the question is reliability, then yes teamwork is the most important part. That is where any form of relying or lack thereof can be seen.

 

Edit: Legatus, the Wolves felt the Library needed to be destroyed. Not wanted to, or they just felt like it. In their eyes, it needed to be done. The Thousand Sons felt it should be studied and preserved, not destroyed outright. To the Sons, the Wolves were being unnecessarily ignorant and destructive (which is true, by their viewpoint). To the Wolves, the Sons were standing in the way (literally) of Imperial progress and were degenerating (again, literally) before their eyes.

[helterskelter]

I agree with Legatus on the team work issue.

Imagine you're the coach of the Primarch football team, and you want your guys to run a zone defense.

Except Angron is plowing straight up the middle trying to sack the quarterback, Curze is off on the sidelines stabbing the opposing team's mascot, and Alpharius is somehow suddenly the referee.

So much for zone defense.

angron would more than sack the quarterback

Curze would mutilate the mascot to such an extent the other team would forfeit

alph would say its all groovey coz he saw nada :p

Teamwork evil style

[Visitor13]

Basically, ATS shows the Wolves as only marginally less destructive than the World Eaters. If a planet resists, the Wolves kill and destroy anything they lay their eyes on, and woe to anyone who tries to stand in their way.