Who is "unreliable"?

[Kol Saresk]

If the question is reliability, then yes teamwork is the most important part. That is where any form of relying or lack thereof can be seen.

 

Edit: Legatus, the Wolves felt the Library needed to be destroyed. Not wanted to, or they just felt like it. In their eyes, it needed to be done. The Thousand Sons felt it should be studied and preserved, not destroyed outright. To the Sons, the Wolves were being unnecessarily ignorant and destructive (which is true, by their viewpoint). To the Wolves, the Sons were standing in the way (literally) of Imperial progress and were degenerating (again, literally) before their eyes.

And it didn't help that both sides were willing to kill each other for it.

[Visitor13]

Oh goodie! : )

 

XIV - Mortarion / Death Guard - Maybe unreliable Primarch, probably reliable Legion. Mortarion's loyalties were never truly convincing, though I don't think that would necessarily have diminished the performance of independently operating Death Guard forces. The newer Forge World books mention high casualty rates among this Legion, though.

 

It seems that like the Iron Hands, the Death Guard do the whole "cult of strength" thing, only substituting bionics for their Barbarus-bred resilience and possibly a preference for fighting in particularly hazardous environments, as well as a preference for fighting on their own. So not much in the way of elaborate multi-legion strategies of  fancy tactics, just brutally pushing through whatever the enemy and nature throw against them. Hence all the casulaties, in all likelihood. 

[Legatus]

I did get the sense that Ferrus Manus was more willing to work with others. He certainly got along with some of his brothers. Mortarion on teh other hand was a somewhat shady character, and two of his brothers (Guilliman and one that crrently has escaped me) even approached the Emperor with concerns regarding his loyalties.

[Dumah]

I agree with Legatus on the team work issue.

 

Imagine you're the coach of the Primarch football team, and you want your guys to run a zone defense.

 

Except Angron is plowing straight up the middle trying to sack the quarterback, Curze is off on the sidelines stabbing the opposing team's mascot, and Alpharius is somehow suddenly the referee.

 

So much for zone defense.

 

Best. Analogy. Ever.

 

I especially enjoyed the bit about Alpharius... I *actually* loled! At the risk of going a smidge off-topic (though it's kind of relevant, as it reflects my thoughts on reliability and such), let's fill out the roster:

 

On Defense (running a 4-3):

• Linebackers - Angron and The Lion at Inside, Russ and the Khan at Outside (they all like to blitz, causes problems in coverage)
• Defensive Line - Dorn at Nose (gets double-teamed all the time), Perturabo (sets the edge like a boss), and Ferrus (overzealous pass rusher, always bites on the screen) on the Ends
• Defensive Backs - Curze (gets called for interference a lot/fined for unsportsmanlike conduct) and Alpharius (Omegon subs in for man coverage)
• Safety - Corax at Free (leads the team in interceptions) and Sanguinius at Strong (excellent open-field tackler)

On offense:

• Quarterback - Guilliman (haters gonna hate)
• Center - Mortarion (loves run plays up the middle)
• Wide Receiver - Fulgrim (doesn't like being hit; gets concussed a lot)
• Tight End - Magnus (good hands, but sucks at blocking), Vulkan (good blocker, but sucks at catching)
• Full-back/Half-back - Horus (versatile: can catch, block and run like a boss)
• Kicker - Lorgar (you had to see that coming)

Wow, I went kind of crazy with that... Did I miss anyone?

[depthcharge12]

Heheheh

 

 

Fulgrim is the *wide reciever*

 

 

ahem

[Dumah]

Yeah... I thought that was fitting.

[helterskelter]

Being English as such I don't completely get this american forwards throwing pansies wearing armour fest thing :p

if he could have been kept loyal I reckon perturabo would be most reliable, due to his exceptionally good abilities in applying force

[Kol Saresk]

Being English as such I don't completely get this american forwards throwing pansies wearing armour fest thing

Well, it wasn't meant to be that. Just a sharing of views and explaining those views if one was so inclined.

[depthcharge12]

Being English as such I don't completely get this american forwards throwing pansies wearing armour fest thing

if he could have been kept loyal I reckon perturabo would be most reliable, due to his exceptionally good abilities in applying force

Aww go home and drink some tea you crumpet eater!!!

:P

[Frosco Toppings]

I agree with Legatus on the team work issue.

 

Imagine you're the coach of the Primarch football team, and you want your guys to run a zone defense.

 

Except Angron is plowing straight up the middle trying to sack the quarterback, Curze is off on the sidelines stabbing the opposing team's mascot, and Alpharius is somehow suddenly the referee.

 

So much for zone defense.

The Primarchs work very well together in my Blood Bowl team although Curze has gotten himself killed :p

[daveNYC]

Angron is 100% reliable.  You know exactly what he's going to do (kill everyone) and how he's going to do it (running straight at them at top speed and then chopping).  Anyone saying Angron isn't reliable is probably also getting annoyed that their hammer isn't doing a proper job of winding their watch.

 

The main unreliable ones?

 

Alpharius/Omegon: You can trust them to complete their objectives.  Their objectives may or may not line up with your objectives.  Their objectives may or may not even line up with their own objectives.  Basically you have no idea what they're going to do or how they're going to do it.

 

Curze:  He crazy!  Seriously, you've got no guarantee that he won't get some vision and send his legion off to who knows where on a quest to deck the halls with entrails.  

 

Pretty much everyone else is reliable.  You just need to make sure you're using them for the right job.  

[Augustus]

Reliable? Predictable? Team player? Playing with lots of definitions. Angron is certainly the most predictable. And you can rely on him to do his thing.

[Visitor13]

Angron is 100% reliable.  You know exactly what he's going to do (kill everyone) and how he's going to do it (running straight at them at top speed and then chopping).  Anyone saying Angron isn't reliable is probably also getting annoyed that their hammer isn't doing a proper job of winding their watch.

 

The main unreliable ones?

 

Alpharius/Omegon: You can trust them to complete their objectives.  Their objectives may or may not line up with your objectives.  Their objectives may or may not even line up with their own objectives.  Basically you have no idea what they're going to do or how they're going to do it.

 

Curze:  He crazy!  Seriously, you've got no guarantee that he won't get some vision and send his legion off to who knows where on a quest to deck the halls with entrails.  

 

Pretty much everyone else is reliable.  You just need to make sure you're using them for the right job.  

 

Basically this. Even with Curze, in his earlier, saner period, you could count on his legion to spread panic amongst the enemy and then you could calmly execute whatever stratagem you want to, with little fear of any countermeasures.

[Legatus]

 

Angron is 100% reliable.

 

If you want to take an installation intact, or need at least 60% of the population to survive to have a working industry or agricultural output, then having Angron in your lineup is probably not going to work in your favour.

[daveNYC]

Didn't say he's the right guy for every job, I just said he's reliable.  If we're defining reliable to mean 'the dude I'd choose to get things done and not be an idiot', then we're looking at Guilliman, Vulkan, Dorn, Sangi, and maybe the Lion.  Pretty much everyone else has a high probability of doing something stupid that defeats the entire purpose of what you told them to do.  And even the above guys have egos visible from orbit, so even they aren't 100%.

[Conn Eremon]

Angron can be relied on to do what he does so well, which is massacre until there's nothing ledt and be dragged off the empty battlefield. That makes him predictable.

 

That doesn't make him reliable, as Horus learned at Isstvan III. You can circumvent the problem by sending him only at targets where you are fine with him being himself, but that doesn't make him reliable either. It just means you can find a use for an unreliable force regardless of that lack of reliability.

[Legatus]

Didn't say he's the right guy for every job

I guess you cannot really "rely" on him in certain situations.

[Wade Garrett]

Didn't say he's the right guy for every job

I guess you cannot really "rely" on him in certain situations.

When you absolutely, positively MUST kill everything on the planet, send Angron. For everything else, there's a Primarch without crazy machines in his head.

[Kol Saresk]

Didn't say he's the right guy for every job

I guess you cannot really "rely" on him in certain situations.

When you absolutely, positively MUST kill everything on the planet, send Angron. For everything else, there's a Primarch without crazy machines in his head.

Or visions, daddy issues, angermanagement, masochism, dog dna, some weird "I must spread freedom through thrrany!" agenda...... Actually I think that's pretty much all of them....... Oh.

[daveNYC]

If we're discounting the primarchs who had daddy issues then we're limited to talking about the missing ones.  At least with them we could they were completely well adjusted until their tragic banana peel related accident.

 

People seem to be using reliable to mean 'useful in all situations'.  A hammer, a wrench, and a screwdriver might be equally good in their various areas of expertise, while a Swiss Army knife sucks equally across a broad spectrum of areas.

[Legatus]

I would define "reliable" most simply as "works well even under non-optimal circumstances". If something works well only if "conditions are right", then I would not really see it as a reliable choice.

 

For a Primarch or a Legion to be considered such, I would want them to be generally willing to communicate and cooperate, to be willing to compromise in the chosen stratagems, and to be willing to make sacrifices for their allies. If a Primarch or Legion is not coordinating with an ally at all, if they insist to attack targets that may not be relevant and may hamper the overall effort, or if they leave an ally hanging if he is being ambushed, then I would not consider them reliable. You cannot rely on them to stick to the agreed plan, you cannot rely on them to protect your flank, you cannot rely on them to pursue a mutual agenda, etc.

[Karthak]

If the question is reliability, then yes teamwork is the most important part. That is where any form of relying or lack thereof can be seen.

 

Edit: Legatus, the Wolves felt the Library needed to be destroyed. Not wanted to, or they just felt like it. In their eyes, it needed to be done. The Thousand Sons felt it should be studied and preserved, not destroyed outright. To the Sons, the Wolves were being unnecessarily ignorant and destructive (which is true, by their viewpoint). To the Wolves, the Sons were standing in the way (literally) of Imperial progress and were degenerating (again, literally) before their eyes.

Do note that the Wolves didn't disband the Rune Priests after Nikaea, because they are meatheaded enough to believe that their powers come from Fenris, and not from the Warp (And yes, Aaron Dembski-Bowden has on this very forum confirmed that in this matter the Wolves are simply wrong). 

[Visitor13]

Didn't say he's the right guy for every job

I guess you cannot really "rely" on him in certain situations.

When you absolutely, positively MUST kill everything on the planet, send Angron.

Or when you need to tie up/distract a strong foe. The WE will charge anything, anywhere, anytime. They won't spend time on planning, they'll simply tear into the enemy while he goes golly gee.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

If the question is reliability, then yes teamwork is the most important part. That is where any form of relying or lack thereof can be seen.

 

Edit: Legatus, the Wolves felt the Library needed to be destroyed. Not wanted to, or they just felt like it. In their eyes, it needed to be done. The Thousand Sons felt it should be studied and preserved, not destroyed outright. To the Sons, the Wolves were being unnecessarily ignorant and destructive (which is true, by their viewpoint). To the Wolves, the Sons were standing in the way (literally) of Imperial progress and were degenerating (again, literally) before their eyes.

Do note that the Wolves didn't disband the Rune Priests after Nikaea, because they are meatheaded enough to believe that their powers come from Fenris, and not from the Warp (And yes, Aaron Dembski-Bowden has on this very forum confirmed that in this matter the Wolves are simply wrong).

I don't think Cormac was defending them...

[Perrin]

I agree with Legatus on the team work issue.

Imagine you're the coach of the Primarch football team, and you want your guys to run a zone defense.

Except Angron is plowing straight up the middle trying to sack the quarterback, Curze is off on the sidelines stabbing the opposing team's mascot, and Alpharius is somehow suddenly the referee.

So much for zone defense.

That's amazing, sig'ed