Depiction of Konrad Kurze in HH books.

[Dominus_Nox]

I'll start by saying Hello! I thought i'd make an account purely to discuss the story line of the Heresy series as I stopped playing the tabletop game a decade ago and just cant get enough of the literature. Plus nobody I know has any interest in it, and my efforts to explain how awesome it is to my friends has just lead to them getting pissed off.

 

So the book "Lord of the Night" by Simon Spurrier was what really got me into the 40k story line and particularly the Night Lords. In this book a sole raptor is awakens from stasis in the 40k universe having been in some sort of psychically induced coma by the eldar for 10,000 years, since the heresy. It's the way this space marine talks about the Night Haunter that got me so interested in the Night Lords. 

I'm a bit of a sucker for misunderstood villains and Kurze is very much described as one in this book. There is also a different spin on the background of his "fall from grace", where the space marine raptor, named Zso Sahaal, has flashbacks of his master saying that the emperor had used him as a scapegoat. He claims that the extreme and controversial methods of the Night Lords were sanctioned by the Emperor, as he needed a weapon to terrify non compliant systems and have governments pay their tithes without bloodshed, which was often the case as most would surrender at the mention of the Night Lords name. However, the Emperor, allegedly, had been sending callidus assassin's in an attempt to kill Kurze long before the Heresy broke out. The Haunter is also depicted in an entirely different manner to the way he has in his few appearances in the HH books, as a calm, wise, albeit dark and misunderstood primarch. Some of the quotes from his teaching were incredible.

 

I just finished listening to the "Vulkan lives" audio book, and I am disappointed in the picture that has been painted of Kurze. He is made out to be a petty, twisted, debased and downright irritating individual with his constant mockery and sarcasm. Even the voice the reader was speaking in was pathetic, more like a scrawny deviant who smokes too much than the Lord of the NIght. He is similarly depicted in "Savage weapons", a short story in "Tales of Heresy" where his interaction with The Lion paints him a similarly pathetic light. 

 

The Dark King audio book was mildly better, but short.

 

Do the black library and its authors take all literature into account when deciding what is said about who? Do they have to take everything ever written into account or is a character at the mercy of whoever is writing about them in that particular book?

 

Rant over, anyway. If anyone can point me in the direction of any other literature about the Haunter that i have not mentioned above it would be appreciated! 

[facmanpob]

You need to read Prince of Crows I think. In that short story, iirc, Sevatar has a conversation in which he discusses the fact that his Primarch is descending into something akin to lunacy, and wasn't always a "nutter". I haven't read Lord of the Night but it is entirely possible that the references to Curze in that book are referring to his personality before he started to go nuts.

[Lucien Eilam]

A D-B talks a bit about reconciling Lord of the Night with everything else that's been written about Night Lords in this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255012-were-the-betrayedsurvivors-declaired-traitors/

[Legatus]

 

It's the way this space marine talks about the Night Haunter that got me so interested in the Night Lords.

 

That's cool. The WH40K setting is a fascinating one, and the Night Lords are very interesting, and my "go to" Legion when I play a Chaos force. However, what you have to know is that the descriptions in 'Lord of the Night' all are highly subjective and, well, skewed. If you remember, at the end of the novel, the "bad" Night Lord Commander (was it Krieg Acerbus?) mocked him for having been fooled by his Primarch, and for actually believing all of his tales. Well, that guy wasn't lying. The picture painted in 'Lord of the Night' is very different from the usual lore descriptions of Curze and the Night Lords. That was part of teh reason for why I personally did not enjoy that book that much. (Another reason were the implausible actions, such as a fully armoured raptor with lightning claws and a jump pack silently climbing out of an air duct to sneak up on unsuspecting victims.)

 

 

 

I just finished listening to the "Vulkan lives" audio book, and I am disappointed in the picture that has been painted of Kurze. He is made out to be a petty, twisted, debased and downright irritating individual with his constant mockery and sarcasm.

 

But that description does not sound like the Curze we knew either. The lore had described him as distraught at his visions of fratricide. He more seemed to act ruthless out of a perceived necessity, not out of personal enjoyment. After turning to Chaos he might have changed, but I still would have expected him more to accept or embrace his violent destiny, not to fully revel in it.

 

 

 

Do the black library and its authors take all literature into account when deciding what is said about who? Do they have to take everything ever written into account or is a character at the mercy of whoever is writing about them in that particular book?

 

Sadly, no. More often than not, authors will simply reinvent a character or a factions character traits to suit their own story. Lord of the Night was very different from the "established" lore, though at least at the end of that book it was sort of revealed that most of the subjective descriptions of Curze and the Night Lords were actually incorrect. (But by that point a lot of readers had bought into Sahaal's perspective.) Dan Abnett writes great stories about the Imperial Guard. But pretty much every time he writes about one of the Space Marine Legions he significantly alters their background and character. He did it with the Alpha Legion, with the Space Wolves, and with the Ultramarines. Even Aaron Dembski-Bowden, who is almost universally liked by the fandom, ocasionally goes rogue. ALthough in some of the cases it seems that he was bound by executive decisions (e.g. in "Betrayer", we witness battles that previously specifically never happened, on worlds that previously specifically did not exist, but that plot had been set up long in advance by the Horus Heresy team, and was not his sole creation).

 

Unfortunately, continuity or canonicity are not important in GW's opinion.

 

 

If you want to know more about the core backstory of Curze and the Night Lords, perhaps you can track down the Night Lords' 'Index Astartes' article.

[Dominus_Nox]

Thanks for the replies, that thread was very useful.

Krieg Acerbus was his name indeed. I had thought that what he said might be true, but it was difficult to take at the end of a book i loved so much to have everything you'd been lead to believe in it dashed at the end. I suspect most readers felt the same and experienced the same crushing sense of denial that Sahaal would have. Such is the beauty of the book, very well written. Like Sahaal however, I will remain ignorant and stay on my high horse

I suppose the best way out of it for the lore, the authors and the storyline in general would be to assume that the Night Haunter that Sahaal perceived was indeed just one side of him, and as time progressed and chaos whispered Kurze became more and more like the maniac he is painted to be.

For the record Sahaal had some kind of retractable claws that emanated out of his gauntlets, i kinda imagined them to be like wolverines claws but coming out of your finger tips rather than your knuckles. This allowed him to creep around better and maintain the dexterity to use ballistic weapons. But yeah.. a 7ft, 300lb guy encased in heavy power armor with a jetpack creeping around vents un-detected does seem a little far-fetched. Maybe he was just the best?

[wtwhizz]

Thanks for the replies, that thread was very useful.

Krieg Acerbus was his name indeed. I had thought that what he said might be true, but it was difficult to take at the end of a book i loved so much to have everything you'd been lead to believe in it dashed at the end. I suspect most readers felt the same and experienced the same crushing sense of denial that Sahaal would have. Such is the beauty of the book, very well written. Like Sahaal however, I will remain ignorant and stay on my high horse

I suppose the best way out of it for the lore, the authors and the storyline in general would be to assume that the Night Haunter that Sahaal perceived was indeed just one side of him, and as time progressed and chaos whispered Kurze became more and more like the maniac he is painted to be.

For the record Sahaal had some kind of retractable claws that emanated out of his gauntlets, i kinda imagined them to be like wolverines claws but coming out of your finger tips rather than your knuckles. This allowed him to creep around better and maintain the dexterity to use ballistic weapons. But yeah.. a 7ft, 300lb guy encased in heavy power armor with a jetpack creeping around vents un-detected does seem a little far-fetched. Maybe he was just the best?

Yeah, you've got to employ some serious suspension of disbelief when it comes to Space Marines being sneaky.

They mention a couple of times (in regards to the Raven Guard) in the novels how certain Marines have "stealth" armor or whatnot, but it isn't really ever talked about in regards to an entire Legion. I don't think they've ever mentioned the Night Lords using it, though don't quote me on that.

As if it wasn't bad enough that you've got a 7-8ft tall, huge dude in a literal ton of armor trying to sneak around, the novels have mentioned quite a few times how Space Marine power armor growls, buzzes, and generally just makes a lot of noise. In fact, it makes normal humans' teeth itch and gives them headaches if they're somewhat close to a Space Marine.

So, in short, just go with it. :D

[Kol Saresk]

Have you heard the amount of ambient noise in just a city? The biggest city I've ever been in is Orlando, FL, and it isn't the biggest city. Now think of a hive city. Think of ten mega-metroploises piled one on top of the other, where an elevator can go thousands of floors up, and that's not even starting at the bottom of the underhive. Which can coincidentally houses a small(seriously, it is described as a small cavern IIRC) that in turn houses a drilling machine, that is large enough to again act as another city within a city that houses thousands of people. Do you realize how much ambient noise that is? That's a lot. And I speak as someone who lives five hundred feet from an active railroad. Its kind of hard not to be quiet in a place where things much louder than a single Astartes are the norm.

 

One other thing to consider about Zso Sahaal's jump pack, is that there are no mentions of jet engines or even flames. Whenn from other people's POV within the novel, it appears as if he's actually flying. This in turn leads me to believe his "jump pack" is actually some sort of mini-grav engine. Of course, that is just fan theorizing and shouldn't be taken as fact.

 

OP: The ultimate truth about Konrad Curze is that every depiction is a true depiction. To be exposed to the kind of mental stress he was for as long as he was, it would be kind of hard to be anyone's view of sane, or normal. Ultimately, do what any good Night Lord fan does: Pick a view and stick with it. The fans of the VIII Legion are blessed in that they can have the biggest variety of personality types.

[Legatus]

Perhaps I should clarify that it is not so much the descriptions of Curze that were the problem, as more Curze's dexcription of the Emperor. He claimed that all of the Night Lords' atrocious methods were accepted, even expected, and that the Emperor on the other hand secretly tried to get rid of Curze. However, that issue is described in the Index Astartes article.

 

When Curze was discovered and given command over a Space Marine Legion, like many of his brothers he proceeded to employ methods he had learned growing up. These may have seemed hars to others, but they were initially not overly excessive, and seemed to work. He was left to prosecute the Great Crusade as he wished, much like any of his brothers. His choice of tactics was not encouraged or mandated by the Emperor, it was how he decided to wage war.

 

The methods of the Night Lords really only became excessive after their ranks had more and more been filled with criminals and psychopaths, which Curze had not realized was happening. It went over the edge when Curze and Dorn had a violent confrontation, after which Curze proceeded to destroy his own homeworld. He then took his Legion and went on a violent rampage through the Imperium, raiding worlds with the most flimsy excuses and the slightest sign of disobedience. When more and more reports about these atrocities reached Terra, the Emperor finally acted and was about to summon Curze to Terra to answer for his actions. But that was when the Horus Heresy erupted.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't recall anyone refuting that.........

[Brother Heinrich]

His choice of tactics was not encouraged or mandated by the Emperor, it was how he decided to wage war.

Well the current book Horus Heresy: Massacre refutes that viewpoint as well. There are several excerpts talking about the Emperor's express usage of the Night Lords in terror and decimation tactics as early as the Unification Wars. There is a specific battle where they pull all the same moves they still do in the 41st millennium, except that it was pre-crusade and pre Curze. They were designed as a weapon of terror and intimidation, a more refined version of the brutality that was the Thunder Warriors, they served their purpose too well and the Emperor recognized he needed to put down the rabid dog he created.

 

OP as far as your questions go I to was pretty pissed att he portrayal of Curze in Vulkan Lives, he comes off like a petutlant child pulling the wings of flies and torturing animals. Kol has stated in couple of threads regarding this topic that it's very uncharacteristic behavior for him, since his entire ethos revolves around the displaying of his kills and the fear that it induces. Curze wants to teach lessons and you can't do that when there's no one in the classroom.

 

As far as how I view the Night Haunter, I'd have to say I fall in somewhere with the Sevatarians, in that we consider dad's vision of unification through fear a complete load of BS. We were and always will be murderers and psychopaths, no matter what cloak of justification we hang from our shoulders, the blood on our hands shows the truth of what we are. You are perfectly entitled to view dad in any way you want, Sahaalites (usually those crusty old Terran bastards who played Night Lords before it was cool) hold to the old vision of a noble father wronged by the Emperor and used like a tool. That's whats beautiful about our family, we all think we know Dad best, but really do any of us truly know the Night Haunter?

[Scribe]

Yeah, the latest HH book pretty much sets the VIIIth into a very narrow framework from its point of original onward.

 

I take exception to the concept of unification through fear as complete BS though. Was it partial BS? Yes. However I think even Sev comments on the righteousness (the quality of being morally right or justifiable) of their actions.

 

Its something I was exploring a bit mentally for awhile, but the latest HH book killed off my train of thought. I've come around a bit but the Legion was (as of HH:Massacare) a bunch of damage souls, from the onset. If they felt they had justification for their actions is a bit up in the air, but I like to think there was at least some of that and it wasn't ALL stabby stabby I'm a gang banger in midnight clad.

[Legatus]

 

I don't recall anyone refuting that.........

 

We, (myself included) had talked about how Curze was described in the book. Though Curze himself is really not described in much detail at all, IIRC. It is more how Curze had described their relation to the Emperor and the Imperium that was in question.

 

 

 

His choice of tactics was not encouraged or mandated by the Emperor, it was how he decided to wage war.

Well the current book Horus Heresy: Massacre refutes that viewpoint as well. There are several excerpts talking about the Emperor's express usage of the Night Lords in terror and decimation tactics as early as the Unification Wars. There is a specific battle where they pull all the same moves they still do in the 41st millennium, except that it was pre-crusade and pre Curze. They were designed as a weapon of terror and intimidation, a more refined version of the brutality that was the Thunder Warriors, they served their purpose too well and the Emperor recognized he needed to put down the rabid dog he created.

 

That is a complete change from the previous background story. A shame. But I guess not too surprising.

[Scribe]

Yeah, that was my thinking too Legatus. The fact they now ALWAYS came from a pit of terror and lawlessness pretty much does away with 'they poisoned my legion!!!' as a storyline.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I don't recall anyone refuting that.........

We, (myself included) had talked about how Curze was described in the book. Though Curze himself is really not described in much detail at all, IIRC. It is more how Curze had described their relation to the Emperor and the Imperium that was in question.

I have to admit my confusion. Are we talking about this topic, or elsewhere? So far the only thing I've said here is that every depiction of Curze is true.

 

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what's going on. Which is very possible at this point in time.

 

 

 

 

 

His choice of tactics was not encouraged or mandated by the Emperor, it was how he decided to wage war.

Well the current book Horus Heresy: Massacre refutes that viewpoint as well. There are several excerpts talking about the Emperor's express usage of the Night Lords in terror and decimation tactics as early as the Unification Wars. There is a specific battle where they pull all the same moves they still do in the 41st millennium, except that it was pre-crusade and pre Curze. They were designed as a weapon of terror and intimidation, a more refined version of the brutality that was the Thunder Warriors, they served their purpose too well and the Emperor recognized he needed to put down the rabid dog he created.

That is a complete change from the previous background story. A shame. But I guess not too surprising.

Actually, it isn't. Remember the header from the Index Astartes article that was in big bold print?

 

"The Night Lords have always belonged to the darkness. Ever since their inception, the black seed of their Primarch infected them with violence and despair. Although they once fought with grim efficiency in the name of the Emperor, the Night Lords were among the first to turn to the darkness, sowing misery and fear like a plague across unnumbered worlds."

 

When we see one of the first battles of the VIII Legion in Massacre, we see five hundred Astartes calmly and effectively wipe out an entire city that numbered in the tens of millions using tactics that included drugging the population through aerial bombardment and detonating support structures so an entire city would fall into the crevasse it was hanging onto like a leech.

 

Then of course, we get to the Heresy where the Night Lords switch to assaulting with overwhelming force while using psychological terror tactics because its fun, not because it was needed to balance the scales.

[Scribe]

I suppose, but I would rather have that reference speaking to is that they rebelled first, and that their actions could never be taken as fitting in with the wider Imperium.

 

The problem with the new fluff is the loss (imo of course) of the whole reason Curze went back to blow up Nostramo, the whole reason he hated his Legion. That there was a stream of corruption flowing from the criminal elements of Nostramo.

 

When the original recruits where just as bad if not worse as even the most 'savage of killers would not seek them out by choice.'

 

The Legion was damaged goods from the onset.

 

Which removes.

 

1. The poisoning of the Legion.

2. The corruption of the Legions methods from righteous, to sadistic.

3. The potential for various origin stories. "Hey bro, you came from a place of lawlessness, terror, anarchy, AND Darkness?!! Me too!'

 

I'd rather not get upset about it (again) so I guess I'll just leave it at that, but the book has removed scope and potential, and has narrowed the story.

[Unintentional Batman]

 

That is a complete change from the previous background story. A shame. But I guess not too surprising.

 

Agreed. After they changed Leman to a Primarch, nothing should come as a surprise for us.

 

But you won't bitch about that, now do you?

[Kol Saresk]

I suppose, but I would rather have that reference speaking to is that they rebelled first, and that their actions could never be taken as fitting in with the wider Imperium.

 

The problem with the new fluff is the loss (imo of course) of the whole reason Curze went back to blow up Nostramo, the whole reason he hated his Legion. That there was a stream of corruption flowing from the criminal elements of Nostramo.

 

When the original recruits where just as bad if not worse as even the most 'savage of killers would not seek them out by choice.'

 

The Legion was damaged goods from the onset.

 

Which removes.

 

1. The poisoning of the Legion.

2. The corruption of the Legions methods from righteous, to sadistic.

3. The potential for various origin stories. "Hey bro, you came from a place of lawlessness, terror, anarchy, AND Darkness?!! Me too!'

 

I'd rather not get upset about it (again) so I guess I'll just leave it at that, but the book has removed scope and potential, and has narrowed the story.

Except not all of the recruits came from a penal colony. That was the primary recruiting center and all that takes is having a higher percentage than everywhere else.

 

Also, it actually helps make sense why the IA article would also say that the sadism took root without exception.

[wtwhizz]

Have you heard the amount of ambient noise in just a city? The biggest city I've ever been in is Orlando, FL, and it isn't the biggest city. Now think of a hive city. Think of ten mega-metroploises piled one on top of the other, where an elevator can go thousands of floors up, and that's not even starting at the bottom of the underhive. Which can coincidentally houses a small(seriously, it is described as a small cavern IIRC) that in turn houses a drilling machine, that is large enough to again act as another city within a city that houses thousands of people. Do you realize how much ambient noise that is? That's a lot. And I speak as someone who lives five hundred feet from an active railroad. Its kind of hard not to be quiet in a place where things much louder than a single Astartes are the norm.

One other thing to consider about Zso Sahaal's jump pack, is that there are no mentions of jet engines or even flames. Whenn from other people's POV within the novel, it appears as if he's actually flying. This in turn leads me to believe his "jump pack" is actually some sort of mini-grav engine. Of course, that is just fan theorizing and shouldn't be taken as fact.

OP: The ultimate truth about Konrad Curze is that every depiction is a true depiction. To be exposed to the kind of mental stress he was for as long as he was, it would be kind of hard to be anyone's view of sane, or normal. Ultimately, do what any good Night Lord fan does: Pick a view and stick with it. The fans of the VIII Legion are blessed in that they can have the biggest variety of personality types.

You do a good job with your suspension of disbelief when it comes to Space Marine sneakery (I just made that word up, it's awesome).

Characters are underneath a hive, in abandoned tunnels, where they can hear every other little thing going on in the environment, yet a dude in armor that hums a tune so loud it causes their teeth to itch pops right up on them. They don't have to yell to be heard by their buddy who is two feet away, but this giant of a dude in a full suit of armor can stand inches away from then and go Boo! This isn't just the Night Lord books either. Space Marines are always doing what essentially amounts to a jump scare on people.

I'm fine with it. It would seriously curb what the writers could do with their characters if we had to treat them logically. So, as I said to the other nice gentleman, just go with it. If you want to come up with varied reasons for why power armor wouldn't be heard, that's cool too. A little neurotic, but cool.

[Legatus]

 

Actually, it isn't. Remember the header from the Index Astartes article that was in big bold print?

 

"The Night Lords have always belonged to the darkness. Ever since their inception, the black seed of their Primarch infected them with violence and despair. Although they once fought with grim efficiency in the name of the Emperor, the Night Lords were among the first to turn to the darkness, sowing misery and fear like a plague across unnumbered worlds."

 

Seems fitting. Though I think at that time it was meant more in reference to Curze's dark visions (which would also plague the Legion's Librarians, IIRC). The Index Astartes article does go at length to describe how only with Curze's leadership did the Night Lords develop the tendency to use excessive force, and that Curze "moulded his sons into an efficient, humourless force of warriors to whom killing was second nature".

 

 

 

 

Agreed. After they changed Leman to a Primarch, nothing should come as a surprise for us.

 

Leman Russ was described as the founder of the Space Wolves in the 1988 Rulebook for Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader. So once GW had developed the concept of the Primarchs, declaring that Leman Russ was, in fact, the "Primarch" of the Space Wolves seems like the natural evolution of the lore.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Actually, it isn't. Remember the header from the Index Astartes article that was in big bold print?

 

"The Night Lords have always belonged to the darkness. Ever since their inception, the black seed of their Primarch infected them with violence and despair. Although they once fought with grim efficiency in the name of the Emperor, the Night Lords were among the first to turn to the darkness, sowing misery and fear like a plague across unnumbered worlds."

Seems fitting. Though I think at that time it was meant more in reference to Curze's dark visions (which would also plague the Legion's Librarians, IIRC). The Index Astartes article does go at length to describe how only with Curze's leadership did the Night Lords develop the tendency to use excessive force, and that Curze "moulded his sons into an efficient, humourless force of warriors to whom killing was second nature".

 

Which is fitting. It's one thing to kill because you have weapons. It's another to be good at it. And it's a third to enjoy it.

 

Which actually seems like the three stages of the VIII Legion if you think about it.

 

@Whizz: Actually, not really. You're still an underhive filled with machinery. You get used to background noise and when power armor is described, its not exactly overly loud. Its always described as a mechanical hum. It actually wouldn't be that hard to "accidentally ignore", the same way one might not always notice their mobile vibrating.

[Legatus]

The Index Astartes article also makes a point in describing how with the later recruits from Nostramo the Legion would be infused with ruthless criminals, all without Curze noticing. Like... the Legion hadn't already consisted mainly of ruthless criminals.

[Wade Garrett]

I agree that some of the lore in the Forge World books does set ones teeth on edge, with my particular bugaboos being them trying to set "The Word Bearers killed off all their Terran members" in stone, plus "The Emperor, MOST POWERFUL PSYKER IN THE HISTORY OF LIFE, had no clue Lorgar worshipped him as a god, huge religious celebrations of his arrival on Colchis described in The First Heretic be hanged. "

[Unintentional Batman]

 So once GW had developed the concept of the Primarchs, declaring that Leman Russ was, in fact, the "Primarch" of the Space Wolves seems like the natural evolution of the lore.

 

Hogwash It's a retcon like all the ones you claim to so hate. And you know it. You are just clinging to "your" version (like you always say "2nd to 5th edition") of the "canon" and having a hissyfit if something from that era is changed, and completely disregarding the fact that ALL of your lore is a retcon, not the original - TRUE - one. But we have gone through this a few times before, and I don't believe the inquisition will appreciate yet another snidely presented showcasing of your intellectual dishonesty on this issue.

 

So I'll go do something else. Like read the proper, original lore. Or be content in the fact that what Black Library is putting out now, vastly surpasses the "2nd to 5th edition" era.

[Legatus]

I forgot I had a personal fan on this forum.

[Wade Garrett]

I think that hectoring for the idea that everyone should accept every change that BL/GW make to the background AND BE GRATEFUL FOR IT! is going to meet with about the same reception on these boards as the Traitors got at Eternity Gate.

 

Are some of the changes for the better? Yes. Are some of them the most cringe inducing idiocy ever committed to paper? Also yes.

 

Which is which? Therein, as the late great Patrick Swayze once said, opinions vary.